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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
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    Yes we see it multiple times, but not all the time. Why? Why isnt every bending battle one where two people are say, struggling over control of a single boulder to see who gets to hurl it at who?If aang can just control the elements no matter what, why does he spend so much of the show dodging or countering with his own attacks? I just dont want them to decide that nothing ed does matters unless he transmutes aang into a statue. Which he could actually do btw, not sure if aang has a counter for that other than "dont let him touch you" In fact, that might be how the battle goes. They face off flinging attacks at each other, aang starts to control everything ed sends, so ed goes for a direct contact human transmutation, he connects, aang starts to turn into a tree or something, then goes avatar mode and overwhelms ed.
    The same reason, I suspect, why real life sword fights don't often devolve into struggling over who controls one blade.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    toph versus garra I think you mean. And honestly, I think the rogue/wonder woman fight was far worse thought out. At least with flash and quicksilver they let the clearly superior combatant win. Rogue/ Wonder Woman was just as much of a stomp, but they inexplicably decided the far weaker character would win.
    Toph vs Gaara comes up yet again, I guess this time its topical. However, I don't get your current take as I seem to recall you were once on team "Toph vs. Gaara proves DB is actually trying to troll us."

    When it comes to Toph, I can't see but how she's radically overpowered for the simple reason that she's supposed to have problems with sandbending. Sure, she can do it, she was even able to hold up a giant structure that wanted to bury itself and fight off Sandcreatures at once (but couldn't hit them). She does say though that her "vision is blurry" in the sand and her attacks were not as strong fast or accurate in the desert. Gaara should be able to beat her simply by his superior sand skills (and ability to turn the rest of the ground into his special sand). However, since people disagree with me about what I have to say about Toph, so I'm thinking there's an argument to be made for her if you think she can bend sand as well as earth.

    Rogue v. Wonder Woman I just haven't seen anything to tell me otherwise. They say Rogue has both Captain Marvel powers AND power stealing. In other words, she can go toe to toe with WW long enough to get a in a good drain on WW power and the corresponding power-up to herself. Even if Wonder Woman is too powerful to be drained, Rogue can get stronger until she is the strongest combatant. Seems pretty simple logic.

    Gaara and Toph are tremendously mismatched but Rogue/WW fight is just on its face the correct outcome. What's the logic to saying it was wrong? Rogue got the powers in a non-canon one shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
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    Edward pros: More intelligent, arguably more experienced, can transmute metal

    Aang pros: Literally everything else

    Seems fair.
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    My feeling is actually that Edward has the edge.

    FMA-universe is on a completely different power-scale.

    Ed is very smart and not limited to four elements, he can literally turn anything into anything else. I haven't seen the last parts of Brotherhood, but unless that series contradicts me, Ed can't transmute human flesh, nor does he have a philosopher's stone. However, as soon as he sees that Aang is limited to fire, water, air, and earth, and not complex stuff such as metal, lava, etc, he can simply deny Aang materials.

    The question is how powerful they make the Avatar state. Aang himself has not done really large scale damage in this form (so Ed might have him beat comparing feat to feat). However, Aang explicitly has the powers of every other Avatar. Kyoshi created her own island with an earthquake, Korra practically became a Kaiju, and maybe there is comic book stuff to add.

    So this is a fight I see going either way, but just looking at the two I'd say Ed has normal Aang beat on power, speed and smarts. Aangs only hope is the Avatar form, which may or may not work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
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    we have seen multiple times in the show that a bender can "steal" control of bent materials. This was probably best seen in the fight between Katara and Pakku. Now, I won't get into the Garra fight as I'm unfamiliar with Naruto and whether or not he'd have some sort of magic connection to his sand that can reasonably trump Toph's will, but I will say that it is entirely fair for Aang to throw back anything Edward transmutes. Transmutation does not grant any sort of control over a thing after it is created. It's like building a computer program to do what you want and then letting it run on its own. Anyone can come along later and mess with it freely if they know how.
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    For the record, yes Gaara does have a powerful magic-like connection with his sand which wasn't mentioned.

    This is why I see Ed winning though, Aang can only bend things in the form of the basic four elements. If Ed figures that out (and he's smart) all he has to do is deny Aang the material to work with. Aang cannot bend his way out of a metal cage filled with poison gas.

    Someone said Ed could literally transmute Aang. Haven't seen it, (and I thought human transmutation requires the philosopher stone or a human sacrifice) but if that's the case we got another trump card.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post

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    My feeling is actually that Edward has the edge.

    FMA-universe is on a completely different power-scale.

    Ed is very smart and not limited to four elements, he can literally turn anything into anything else. I haven't seen the last parts of Brotherhood, but unless that series contradicts me, Ed can't transmute human flesh, nor does he have a philosopher's stone. However, as soon as he sees that Aang is limited to fire, water, air, and earth, and not complex stuff such as metal, lava, etc, he can simply deny Aang materials.

    The question is how powerful they make the Avatar state. Aang himself has not done really large scale damage in this form (so Ed might have him beat comparing feat to feat). However, Aang explicitly has the powers of every other Avatar. Kyoshi created her own island with an earthquake, Korra practically became a Kaiju, and maybe there is comic book stuff to add.

    So this is a fight I see going either way, but just looking at the two I'd say Ed has normal Aang beat on power, speed and smarts. Aangs only hope is the Avatar form, which may or may not work.


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    For the record, yes Gaara does have a powerful magic-like connection with his sand which wasn't mentioned.

    This is why I see Ed winning though, Aang can only bend things in the form of the basic four elements. If Ed figures that out (and he's smart) all he has to do is deny Aang the material to work with. Aang cannot bend his way out of a metal cage filled with poison gas.

    Someone said Ed could literally transmute Aang. Haven't seen it, (and I thought human transmutation requires the philosopher stone or a human sacrifice) but if that's the case we got another trump card.
    Actually, No, Edward CAN'T turn anything into anything else:

    The Law of Natural Providence, which states that an object or material made of a particular substance or element can only be transmuted into another object with the same basic makeup and properties of that initial material. In other words, an object or material made mostly of water can only be transmuted into another object with the attributes of water.
    This is Alchemy's second law. the lesser known part, but still, to get that steel cage he'd have to use metal to get the same amount, to get that gas he had to use air of the same amount. Edward has not been shown to transmute air.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    When it comes to Toph, I can't see but how she's radically overpowered for the simple reason that she's supposed to have problems with sandbending. Sure, she can do it, she was even able to hold up a giant structure that wanted to bury itself and fight off Sandcreatures at once (but couldn't hit them). She does say though that her "vision is blurry" in the sand and her attacks were not as strong fast or accurate in the desert. Gaara should be able to beat her simply by his superior sand skills (and ability to turn the rest of the ground into his special sand). However, since people disagree with me about what I have to say about Toph, so I'm thinking there's an argument to be made for her if you think she can bend sand as well as earth.
    She does work on her sandbending and is pretty good at it at the end of book "Fire". I think what irks people a lot more about that episode (including me) is that Gaara has just that much more raw power. He can control orders of magnitude more sand than Toph at once and could easily bury her in raw power. In almost all other Death Battles (Most notable exception: Wonder Woman vs. Rogue, which is another controversial one, though I agree with your analysis) they have raw power beat fine control. Especially if the power discrepancy is this large. Or to quote Order of the Stick: "In any battle there is always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed."

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    She does work on her sandbending and is pretty good at it at the end of book "Fire". I think what irks people a lot more about that episode (including me) is that Gaara has just that much more raw power. He can control orders of magnitude more sand than Toph at once and could easily bury her in raw power. In almost all other Death Battles (Most notable exception: Wonder Woman vs. Rogue, which is another controversial one, though I agree with your analysis) they have raw power beat fine control. Especially if the power discrepancy is this large. Or to quote Order of the Stick: "In any battle there is always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed."
    Doesn't Toph reach the level of having range across an entire city or something?
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    She does work on her sandbending and is pretty good at it at the end of book "Fire". I think what irks people a lot more about that episode (including me) is that Gaara has just that much more raw power. He can control orders of magnitude more sand than Toph at once and could easily bury her in raw power. In almost all other Death Battles (Most notable exception: Wonder Woman vs. Rogue, which is another controversial one, though I agree with your analysis) they have raw power beat fine control. Especially if the power discrepancy is this large. Or to quote Order of the Stick: "In any battle there is always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed."
    We should make this one of our forum's derived death battle rules:

    1st Rule: If you don't see it, it doesn't count (disproved by recent death battles that refer to feats simply mentioned)

    2nd Candidate: you can't derive a person's strength from other character's abilities just because that character beat them (also done in that recent Streetfighter battle)

    This one might work: In any battle there is always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed...

    This may work if interpreted vary narrowly: the OP character will win against the lesser character if the lesser character's advantage is pure tactics, but there are very few fights that come down to very large differences in power levels being bridged by pure tactics and not something else, like speed, some sort of special power (e.g. Rogue power stealing ability), sheer durability (DMC v Bayonetta). In any case of a large difference of power-scaling, the powerscaler will always win...with the exception of Link vs Cloud...but Cloud is interpreted as very gimped in that one, or Gaara vs. Toph but Gaara is also interpreted as being on Tophs level in that fight.

    So we come down with the rule that the character that they interpreted as being overwhelmingly OP will always win against pure tactics, but that's not as useful a rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Actually, No, Edward CAN'T turn anything into anything else:

    This is Alchemy's second law. the lesser known part, but still, to get that steel cage he'd have to use metal to get the same amount, to get that gas he had to use air of the same amount. Edward has not been shown to transmute air.
    That's like saying that the laws of motion or thermodynamics are operative in DC's universe. If its true, its not very informative. Edward can transmute the ground, clothing, and any materials at hand, so he always has a lot to work with. In the anime he does some pretty wacky transmutations.

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    More interesting is applying comic book logic on the way alchemy works. Supposedly it relies on motions in the Earth's tectonic plates. Aang may be powerful enough to redirect those flows in Avatar form...however, Aang isn't likely to figure out how Ed's power works in this respect since that's rather obscure. However, Aang can spirit-bend and since that is more intuitive maybe Aang can close Ed's internal ability to use alchemy by spirit bending.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    That's like saying that the laws of motion or thermodynamics are operative in DC's universe. If its true, its not very informative. Edward can transmute the ground, clothing, and any materials at hand, so he always has a lot to work with. In the anime he does some pretty wacky transmutations.

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    More interesting is applying comic book logic on the way alchemy works. Supposedly it relies on motions in the Earth's tectonic plates. Aang may be powerful enough to redirect those flows in Avatar form...however, Aang isn't likely to figure out how Ed's power works in this respect since that's rather obscure. However, Aang can spirit-bend and since that is more intuitive maybe Aang can close Ed's internal ability to use alchemy by spirit bending.
    No, thats the canonical Second Law of Alchemy, so no, it applies.

    the transmutations he does is mostly metal and earth. its explicitly said his specialty is with metal, so there is limits to his ability to transmute things. while theoretically an alchemist can transmute anything, they are in fact limited by their knowledge of chemicals and what can be transmuted into what. thats why he is called the fullmetal alchemist.

    so no, your overestimating his abilities.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    No, thats the canonical Second Law of Alchemy, so no, it applies.

    the transmutations he does is mostly metal and earth. its explicitly said his specialty is with metal, so there is limits to his ability to transmute things. while theoretically an alchemist can transmute anything, they are in fact limited by their knowledge of chemicals and what can be transmuted into what. thats why he is called the fullmetal alchemist.

    so no, your overestimating his abilities.
    I thought the was called the Fullmetal Alchemist becuase of his solid metal prosthetics?

    (I never watched FMA, all I know about it comes from osmosis)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I thought the was called the Fullmetal Alchemist becuase of his solid metal prosthetics?

    (I never watched FMA, all I know about it comes from osmosis)
    He's actually called the Fullmetal Alchemist because of his sheer stubborn resolve and chutzpah, with the prosthetics being a cheeky bonus dig at Ed from the Fuhrer.

    It has nothing to do with his ability set.
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    well all the transmutations that happen in the series because of Ed are metallic or earth-based, he transmutes the spear, the wrist-blade from his hand, he constantly does earth stuff, but if there is any instance of him doing water, fire or air I can't remember it. like I remember that Mustang must wear a certain specially made glove to make sure he can blast fire at people, Armstrong has certain transmutation circles just to do his one transmutation, and while Ed's circle-less transmutation is different, that doesn't mean its limitless or all-powerful. and since this is death battle, they won't see any claim that ed can do more than what he is shown to do as valid.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    well all the transmutations that happen in the series because of Ed are metallic or earth-based, he transmutes the spear, the wrist-blade from his hand, he constantly does earth stuff, but if there is any instance of him doing water, fire or air I can't remember it. like I remember that Mustang must wear a certain specially made glove to make sure he can blast fire at people, Armstrong has certain transmutation circles just to do his one transmutation, and while Ed's circle-less transmutation is different, that doesn't mean its limitless or all-powerful. and since this is death battle, they won't see any claim that ed can do more than what he is shown to do as valid.
    Transmuting Fire is apparently a really big deal, Mustang is the only person who can do it. Considering he's able to solo kill homonculi using nothing but flame alchemy, it's understandable why it's such a big deal.

    As for Ed, I seem to remember him transmuting ice or water, and I think I remember him either neutralizing or creating a gas once. More importantly, he certainly can (and does) use Scar's deconstruction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    I thought the was called the Fullmetal Alchemist becuase of his solid metal prosthetics?

    (I never watched FMA, all I know about it comes from osmosis)
    In Japanese it's Hagane no Renkinjutsu-shi (literally "Steel Alchemist"), and Fullmetal Alchemist is mostly used stylistically. "Fullmetal" is Japanese slang originating from Full Metal Jacket, which the author added because she assumed it was more common among English-speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    well all the transmutations that happen in the series because of Ed are metallic or earth-based, he transmutes the spear, the wrist-blade from his hand, he constantly does earth stuff, but if there is any instance of him doing water, fire or air I can't remember it. like I remember that Mustang must wear a certain specially made glove to make sure he can blast fire at people, Armstrong has certain transmutation circles just to do his one transmutation, and while Ed's circle-less transmutation is different, that doesn't mean its limitless or all-powerful. and since this is death battle, they won't see any claim that ed can do more than what he is shown to do as valid.
    The glove is basically a combination of the alchemic circle he needs and can produce the initial spark like a stage magician with flash paper. He cut the seal into his hand and used a lighter at one point iirc. Every alchemist aside from ed has that sort of setup. A specialty they work with that they have a premade circle engraved on something like a glove to focus through. I think armstrong had it on his brass knuckles for example, kimbley had his bomb alchemic circle, so on and so forth. Eds main advantage is he isnt restricted to a single trick on the run like everyone else is so he can switch from metal, to stone, to earth, to whatever he wants to manipulate. Gives him great flexibility whereas everyone else has to make do with finding new ways to use stone spikes to defeat people, or bursts of fire. Or bombs. Too be fair, you can solve a lot of problems with any of those objects, so they are hardly crippled, but the benefit is there. As for flesh alchemy, the entire reason for the series is due to ed and his brother using it. He very much so knows how, as he is well aware of the chemical makeup of a human body and thus how to manipulate it. He just doesnt for some odd reason.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    No, thats the canonical Second Law of Alchemy, so no, it applies.

    the transmutations he does is mostly metal and earth. its explicitly said his specialty is with metal, so there is limits to his ability to transmute things. while theoretically an alchemist can transmute anything, they are in fact limited by their knowledge of chemicals and what can be transmuted into what. thats why he is called the fullmetal alchemist.

    so no, your overestimating his abilities.
    It's a fantastical law made to be interpreted in a comic book fashion. The writers don't really know how much volume of what thing can become another thing. Its also been interpreted to mean that if its water being transmuted whatever it makes will be watery or something, but we've seen plenty of stuff that doesn't work that way.

    I recall in the original anime Ed transmutes earth to metal to bubbles or something during the field portion of his exam. He also can create a working cannon out of earth.

    Ed can make metal, make walls, and make guns out of stuff that tends to be handy. His go to abilities tend to be metal and earth but its not the only thing he has done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Transmuting Fire is apparently a really big deal, Mustang is the only person who can do it. Considering he's able to solo kill homonculi using nothing but flame alchemy, it's understandable why it's such a big deal.

    As for Ed, I seem to remember him transmuting ice or water, and I think I remember him either neutralizing or creating a gas once. More importantly, he certainly can (and does) use Scar's deconstruction.
    Ed does a lot a lot of different transmutations over the course of the several series and movie/manga. Admittedly, the Conquerer of Shambala is a pretty ridiculous with some of the things it allows the brothers to do. I wouldn't use it, but DB says all official material is fair game and whether or not its "contradictory" really depends on how seriously you take these comic book limits.

    What Ed does during the field portion of the exam in the original series made me throw out the book in terms of what I expected of how the show would treat alchemy. By the time I finished any series it was pretty clear it could do anything with anything as long as the writers wanted it to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    the original anime? pffh, Reddish that thing isn't reliable at all, most of it wasn't written by the original author and was made to meet deadlines because manga wasn't fully written yet. its Brotherhood thats to be taken seriously, as its far more accurate. original anime means nothing.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    the original anime? pffh, Reddish that thing isn't reliable at all, most of it wasn't written by the original author and was made to meet deadlines because manga wasn't fully written yet. its Brotherhood thats to be taken seriously, as its far more accurate. original anime means nothing.
    Up to the part where it reaches the point where the manga was at the time, it's actually a much better anime than Brotherhood (which intentionally rushes that same part because the producers knew 99% of the audience had already seen it).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    the original anime? pffh, Reddish that thing isn't reliable at all, most of it wasn't written by the original author and was made to meet deadlines because manga wasn't fully written yet. its Brotherhood thats to be taken seriously, as its far more accurate. original anime means nothing.
    The question is if DB will use the original anime or not. Hopefully not, but...
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    You know the images, at the very least, are always taken from all official material out there. You are also going to see from the live action movie. Whether he does an "original anime only feat" is something else, but I question whether the stuff I saw in the early anime was really contradictory with the manga.

    I think Ed can transmute firearms (something Aang doesn't understand) in a regular environment, metal from the ground, and he probably doesn't need to gas Aang but it wouldn't be that much of a stretch.

    I see Ed winning by surprise, by his smarts, and potentially he is superior to non-Avatar Aang in all physical attributes by virtue of the monsters Ed's successfully fought against.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Didn't one of the previous Avatars break an island off of the mainland and move it out to sea? Aang has access to that level of power, so I'd imagine that's the feat they'll go with to calculate his power. No doubt with a lot of faulty assumptions along the way like always. I can't remember Ed's best feat but nothing I can recall is anywhere close to that tier of power.

    I think Ed would win in a "real" fight by outsmarting Aang and taking him by surprise before Aang escalates to full power. Death battles don't go that way though. They like to have both contestants slowly escalate to full and then decide a winner from there.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    You know the images, at the very least, are always taken from all official material out there. You are also going to see from the live action movie. Whether he does an "original anime only feat" is something else, but I question whether the stuff I saw in the early anime was really contradictory with the manga.

    I think Ed can transmute firearms (something Aang doesn't understand) in a regular environment, metal from the ground, and he probably doesn't need to gas Aang but it wouldn't be that much of a stretch.

    I see Ed winning by surprise, by his smarts, and potentially he is superior to non-Avatar Aang in all physical attributes by virtue of the monsters Ed's successfully fought against.
    There are certainly scenarios where Ed can win, but if you think for even a second that this battle is going to end before we see the Avatar state, then you're just not very familiar with Death Battle. In the end, the only part of the debate that really matters is, "Can Ed defeat a full-power Avatar?" I don't like his chances.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    There is no possible way that Edward can defeat Avatar state Aang.

    And that's ignoring how flat out biased in Avatar's favor that the Toph vs Gaara battle was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    There is no possible way that Edward can defeat Avatar state Aang.

    And that's ignoring how flat out biased in Avatar's favor that the Toph vs Gaara battle was.
    I still believe that Toph vs Gaara was far closer than people seem to think. But as long as Aang stays at range he should be able to take down Ed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I still believe that Toph vs Gaara was far closer than people seem to think. But as long as Aang stays at range he should be able to take down Ed.
    Based on speed alone toph should have died instantly. Its like comparing naruto to dragonball, the two universes are just on entirely different tiers of power. Narutoverse fighters get hurled through boulders and trees with trunks the size of houses on a regular basis. Their durability is absurd in comparison to avatar. The speed with which they move and fight are vastly different. Its honestly imo a flash versus quicksilver fight. Two people with similar power sets, but one is just exponentially stronger than the other. The one and only advantage toph had was the hand wave decision that she can take over his attacks, but considering his sand attacks can move supersonic, I dont think her vibration sensing would help much as she is already breathing through a new hole in her forehead.

    The avatar verse is set fairly close to a normal human one for things like speed and durability. So is full metal alchemist. Setting aside magic powers, if you shoot one of the residents with a gun, they will react much like we do. So at least in base stats the two are fairly close. As far as magic systems go, both are capable of killing the other, ie a stone or metal spear to the chest will kill aang, and blades of wind, hurled boulders, and bursts of fire hitting ed will kill him too. The x factor is a combination of how much control over eds attacks they will give aang, and how ludicrous they go with avatar state. They might go the green lantern route and declare that aang can do anything a previous avatar has ever done even if he has himself never been seen doing it. Or they might stick to his actual feats. Im tempted to say they will stick to actual feats as generally they only pull that sort of transitive property when one candidate is behind the other significantly. And what we see aang do at the end of his series is pretty danged impressive on its own. Not so much reshaping the planet level impressive, but in a one on one fight, it was pretty overwhelming. But not enough to elave ed helpless unless, again, they just have aang nope everything ed tries.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    A lot of it is going to hinge on whether Aang (and I'm assuming kid Aang for this) gets into the Avatar State quickly, and whether there's a way Ed can contain that. He doesn't normally voluntarily enter the state unless he think he needs to, which relies on his threat assessment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    A lot of it is going to hinge on whether Aang (and I'm assuming kid Aang for this) gets into the Avatar State quickly, and whether there's a way Ed can contain that. He doesn't normally voluntarily enter the state unless he think he needs to, which relies on his threat assessment.
    Nah, this is death battle, it will ramp up from basic combat to alchemy and bending to avatar state in the end. While technically it makes sense to go full power right at the start in a true death battle, its a lot less amusing to watch.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    There are certainly scenarios where Ed can win, but if you think for even a second that this battle is going to end before we see the Avatar state, then you're just not very familiar with Death Battle. In the end, the only part of the debate that really matters is, "Can Ed defeat a full-power Avatar?" I don't like his chances.
    Zuko's sister did it with one quick attack from behind.

    Korra almost was defeated by poison and was severely weakened even in the Avatar state.

    I'm giving the edge to Ed, because both are possibilities for him. Although, I admit neither sound like his style, he just needs to figure something out that makes the power gap irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I still believe that Toph vs Gaara was far closer than people seem to think. But as long as Aang stays at range he should be able to take down Ed.
    DB after said that Gaara may have a sandcoffin ability but, he was essentially in his own sand coffin that Toph could collapse at any time. Since they decided Toph could crush Gaara's armor all over him, the rest of the battle is easy. That's means his durability is shot.

    How they figure Toph's or Gaara's speed, however, is a mystery. Kid Gaara rarely moves much since he has his sand, but it took a lot of speed for even Sasuke to damage him. Most fighters, who commonly could flash-step (I believe that is an actual ninja ability and not just an effect), couldn't even touch him.

    At best, Toph knows all Gaara's attacks because the air is full of his sand, but they still should be coming at Naruto-verse super-ninja speeds.

    The other thing is, even allowing Toph can manipulate Gaara's armor, she needs her whole body in proper Hun Gar style positions to do bending. Gaara just needs to keep her off balance and he's fine. I think DB will point to things that suggest bending can be done with just the hands.

    I think you can make the argument for Toph (haven't heard a good one yet) but the outcome is clearly wrong upon close inspection at the least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    A lot of it is going to hinge on whether Aang (and I'm assuming kid Aang for this) gets into the Avatar State quickly, and whether there's a way Ed can contain that. He doesn't normally voluntarily enter the state unless he think he needs to, which relies on his threat assessment.
    DB usually has an 'in-their-prime conglomerate' rule, where they take the strongest version of a character and any feats they've shown elsewhere that aren't explicitly stated to have been discarded from their arsenal (eg, Gaara calling his Beast), but the battle sprites are whatever they can get. Harry Potter and Toph were explicitly said to be using their feats as adults, but were represented in the animation as their child selves, for example. I expect we'll get adult Aang's feats, but child Aang's sprites.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    The other thing is, even allowing Toph can manipulate Gaara's armor, she needs her whole body in proper Hun Gar style positions to do bending. Gaara just needs to keep her off balance and he's fine. I think DB will point to things that suggest bending can be done with just the hands.
    I don't want to get into the question of who should have won, but at the very least Bumi, who Toph was roughly level with by the end of the show, was fully capable of performing basic Earthbending using only his head, it is possible an expert to have some control of the elements even if they're unable to strike their preferred stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Zuko's sister did it with one quick attack from behind.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Zuko's sister did it with one quick attack from behind.

    Korra almost was defeated by poison and was severely weakened even in the Avatar state.

    I'm giving the edge to Ed, because both are possibilities for him. Although, I admit neither sound like his style, he just needs to figure something out that makes the power gap irrelevant.



    DB after said that Gaara may have a sandcoffin ability but, he was essentially in his own sand coffin that Toph could collapse at any time. Since they decided Toph could crush Gaara's armor all over him, the rest of the battle is easy. That's means his durability is shot.

    How they figure Toph's or Gaara's speed, however, is a mystery. Kid Gaara rarely moves much since he has his sand, but it took a lot of speed for even Sasuke to damage him. Most fighters, who commonly could flash-step (I believe that is an actual ninja ability and not just an effect), couldn't even touch him.

    At best, Toph knows all Gaara's attacks because the air is full of his sand, but they still should be coming at Naruto-verse super-ninja speeds.

    The other thing is, even allowing Toph can manipulate Gaara's armor, she needs her whole body in proper Hun Gar style positions to do bending. Gaara just needs to keep her off balance and he's fine. I think DB will point to things that suggest bending can be done with just the hands.

    I think you can make the argument for Toph (haven't heard a good one yet) but the outcome is clearly wrong upon close inspection at the least.
    Bumi was capable of bending with just the muscles in his face, so its at least theoretically possible to bend while off balance or dodging.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post

    DB after said that Gaara may have a sandcoffin ability but, he was essentially in his own sand coffin that Toph could collapse at any time. Since they decided Toph could crush Gaara's armor all over him, the rest of the battle is easy. That's means his durability is shot.

    How they figure Toph's or Gaara's speed, however, is a mystery. Kid Gaara rarely moves much since he has his sand, but it took a lot of speed for even Sasuke to damage him. Most fighters, who commonly could flash-step (I believe that is an actual ninja ability and not just an effect), couldn't even touch him.

    At best, Toph knows all Gaara's attacks because the air is full of his sand, but they still should be coming at Naruto-verse super-ninja speeds.

    The other thing is, even allowing Toph can manipulate Gaara's armor, she needs her whole body in proper Hun Gar style positions to do bending. Gaara just needs to keep her off balance and he's fine. I think DB will point to things that suggest bending can be done with just the hands.

    I think you can make the argument for Toph (haven't heard a good one yet) but the outcome is clearly wrong upon close inspection at the least.
    I don't think we ever see Gaara move that quickly, or attack that quickly though. Gaara certainly reacts at ninja speeds but his attacks go more the route of overwhelming power to make them hard to evade, or the fact that they just keep chasing their target. When someone does end up going too fast for him to catch, he doesn't go faster to compensate, he just increases the space he hits, until there is no place for his target to dodge.

    But that would be useless against Toph. Of course if Gaara switched to fighting like a regular ninja he would win easily, but can he even do that?
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    They might go the green lantern route and declare that aang can do anything a previous avatar has ever done even if he has himself never been seen doing it.
    I mean, to be fair, unlike Green Lantern this is an explicit property of Avatars. It's the whole purpose of the Avatar State specifically, it draws on the power AND KNOWLEDGE of all previous avatars. Anything one Avatar has ever done, a subsequent one can do while in the Avatar State (and can learn to do outside of it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I don't think we ever see Gaara move that quickly, or attack that quickly though. Gaara certainly reacts at ninja speeds but his attacks go more the route of overwhelming power to make them hard to evade, or the fact that they just keep chasing their target. When someone does end up going too fast for him to catch, he doesn't go faster to compensate, he just increases the space he hits, until there is no place for his target to dodge.

    But that would be useless against Toph. Of course if Gaara switched to fighting like a regular ninja he would win easily, but can he even do that?
    Yes, he can. Though to be fair he sucks at it early in, and even relatively late in the series, so for most of the franchise Toph could probably beat him up in a straight fight, no powers. Apparently by the time Bort rolls around he's on par with Naruto and Sasuke and all that though, but Bort is...Bort.

    Though it should be noted that even before that, he DOES have the speed of a pretty solid ninja, about the average for their ilk. So you can kind "fake it" against mere mortals. Like the vampires from Buffy; it only looks like martial arts because they move so damn fast, when they're really just kind of flailing at you. Even the slower ninjas move about as fast as a car overland, maybe a bit faster, and with perfect maneuvering in combat distances that's nothing to sneeze at. And he's not one of the slowest ones by any means.

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