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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Yes, he can. Though to be fair he sucks at it early in, and even relatively late in the series, so for most of the franchise Toph could probably beat him up in a straight fight, no powers. Apparently by the time Bort rolls around he's on par with Naruto and Sasuke and all that though, but Bort is...Bort.

    Though it should be noted that even before that, he DOES have the speed of a pretty solid ninja, about the average for their ilk. So you can kind "fake it" against mere mortals. Like the vampires from Buffy; it only looks like martial arts because they move so damn fast, when they're really just kind of flailing at you. Even the slower ninjas move about as fast as a car overland, maybe a bit faster, and with perfect maneuvering in combat distances that's nothing to sneeze at. And he's not one of the slowest ones by any means.
    Well, I really don't know the capabilities of Toph that well, so maybe Gaara could just punch her to death then.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    The major issue with the Gaara v. Toph fight is the declaration that Toph can bend Gaara's sand. I mean, you can go over the feats and I agree with Traab that Naruto is simply a higher scale universe and Gaara's in the top tier of that, but deciding Toph can bend Gaara's sand is an entirely arbitrary decision to trump one magic system over the other despite the fact that on a simple 1-to-1 level Gaara's capacity in wielding his supernatural force is higher than Toph's capacity to wield her supernatural force.

    They made it out to be that if Toph can "see" Gaara floating in the air then she'd just win, like that was the only question as to whether she was the victor or not.

    Edit: Which is the same issue with the Rogue/Wonder Woman fight. They simplified it down to the "she doesn't wear pants" as the supposedly clever "you activated my trap card"-style conclusion.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2019-07-09 at 01:54 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Durkoala View Post
    DB usually has an 'in-their-prime conglomerate' rule, where they take the strongest version of a character and any feats they've shown elsewhere that aren't explicitly stated to have been discarded from their arsenal (eg, Gaara calling his Beast), but the battle sprites are whatever they can get. Harry Potter and Toph were explicitly said to be using their feats as adults, but were represented in the animation as their child selves, for example. I expect we'll get adult Aang's feats, but child Aang's sprites.
    Good point; so Aang won't be struggling to get into the Avatar State, which makes things a lot easier for him. A LOT easier.

    I wonder if Aang's desire to avoid fights will get overwritten as per the "compunction against killing removed" rule. Because if he goes to chi-bend Edward's "bending" away, he'll be off-guard because Alchemy doesn't work like that.

    This is a tangent, but I think it would be cool if DB moved to a sort of Rashomon format, where they pace the episode so that it plays out multiple possible outcomes for the fight, leaving viewers to decide. I'm guessing viewers would get cranky for the lack of a "definitive" answer, but it would often mean a more honest and more nuanced take on the fight. Because really, most fights aren't 100% slanted in favor of one side, and even if a fight is heavily favored, say 30/70, that's still a third of the time that the favored side loses.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    The major issue with the Gaara v. Toph fight is the declaration that Toph can bend Gaara's sand. I mean, you can go over the feats and I agree with Traab that Naruto is simply a higher scale universe and Gaara's in the top tier of that, but deciding Toph can bend Gaara's sand is an entirely arbitrary decision to trump one magic system over the other despite the fact that on a simple 1-to-1 level Gaara's capacity in wielding his supernatural force is higher than Toph's capacity to wield her supernatural force.

    They made it out to be that if Toph can "see" Gaara floating in the air then she'd just win, like that was the only question as to whether she was the victor or not.

    Edit: Which is the same issue with the Rogue/Wonder Woman fight. They simplified it down to the "she doesn't wear pants" as the supposedly clever "you activated my trap card"-style conclusion.
    To further expand on this.

    "I can use my spiritual energy and mantis style kung fu to control the earth."

    "This sand is specially infused with the mixture of my soul energy and my life energy, treated with the blood of the hundreds of people I killed in my psycho phase which combined make it effortless for me to control, and it is literally possessed by my mom's ghost and her will to protect me from everything and she can use it to do so even if Im not aware that something is happening."

    Does the first person being able to steal the second person's stuff make any sense?
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    To further expand on this.

    "I can use my spiritual energy and mantis style kung fu to control the earth."

    "This sand is specially infused with the mixture of my soul energy and my life energy, treated with the blood of the hundreds of people I killed in my psycho phase which combined make it effortless for me to control, and it is literally possessed by my mom's ghost and her will to protect me from everything and she can use it to do so even if Im not aware that something is happening."

    Does the first person being able to steal the second person's stuff make any sense?
    As somebody who has no horse in that particular race, this sounds a lot like declaring that one person's magic should trump another person's magic because reasons. I could fluff up Toph's earthbending a lot too if I felt like it, but at the end of the day, the source of the control is only relevant as much as it could potentially be used to determine some kind of power level, and I haven't really seen anybody do that kind of comparison for this fight.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    To further expand on this.

    "I can use my spiritual energy and mantis style kung fu to control the earth."

    "This sand is specially infused with the mixture of my soul energy and my life energy, treated with the blood of the hundreds of people I killed in my psycho phase which combined make it effortless for me to control, and it is literally possessed by my mom's ghost and her will to protect me from everything and she can use it to do so even if Im not aware that something is happening."

    Does the first person being able to steal the second person's stuff make any sense?
    Yes it does. In as much that either control makes any sort of sense.

    Admittedly, it would also make perfect sense for it to not work either.

    Or to put it another way,

    Toph can control any sand, earth, or metal. If it comes out of the ground she can manipulate it. And with the ability to make elaborate structures, and the precision to land precise blows. She is used to fighting people who can bend the same elements as her, and she can affect their control to the point where she was the best duelists at the age of what? 11?

    Gaara can only really control sand, or sand like materials. He's only once fought people who can mess with his control. He often doesn't consciously control the sand that acts as his defense. Indeed, he has so little control over it, it will even block self inflicted injuries.

    I'd say it makes a lot of sense that the first person can steal the second person's stuff. When I put it like that.


    EDIT: Actually looking at a compilation video of Toph's best bending feats, I'd say Toph outclasses Gaara when it comes to skill. Gaara would win on reaction time. They seem pretty close when it comes to raw power, but Toph can harden the sand just as fast as Gaara could break it down, and well she doesn't need to break it down to keep attacking. As for Gaara's speed, well, I don't think we've ever seen Gaara move much at all, and his sand's speed doesn't look to be all that fast. If anything, it's slower than some of Toph's attacks.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    As somebody who has no horse in that particular race, this sounds a lot like declaring that one person's magic should trump another person's magic because reasons.
    Yes, this is what Space Battles did.

    I'm explaining why Toph taking Gaara's sand away from him and killing him with it doesn't make sense--it's not inert dirt, it's literally infused with his chakra--which is, as stated, equal parts life force and soul juice--and literally possessed by his mom's ghost.

    Even ignoring the radical differance in power that bends in Gaara's favor, the sand is basically an extension of Gaara himself with a secondary control point(Ghost Mom) thats sole priority is preventing Gaara from getting hurt.

    Taking control of Gaara's sand, let alone hurting him with it, is logically impossible: If he doesn't want his personal sand to move, it doesn't move.

    Toph controlling his sand is not only an arbitrary handwave, but it's also one that makes no god-damn sense in context.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Yes, this is what Space Battles did.

    I'm explaining why Toph taking Gaara's sand away from him and killing him with it doesn't make sense--it's not inert dirt, it's literally infused with his chakra--which is, as stated, equal parts life force and soul juice--and literally possessed by his mom's ghost.

    Even ignoring the radical differance in power that bends in Gaara's favor, the sand is basically an extension of Gaara himself with a secondary control point(Ghost Mom) thats sole priority is preventing Gaara from getting hurt.

    Taking control of Gaara's sand, let alone hurting him with it, is logically impossible: If he doesn't want his personal sand to move, it doesn't move.

    Toph controlling his sand is not only an arbitrary handwave, but it's also one that makes no god-damn sense in context.
    I mean, bloodbending is totally a thing in Avatar, so theres absolutely precedent for bending to override control of one's self. As I recall, taking LoK into account, it can start to do some really freaky subtle things beyond just body puppetry, if youre good at it.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean, bloodbending is totally a thing in Avatar, so theres absolutely precedent for bending to override control of one's self. As I recall, taking LoK into account, it can start to do some really freaky subtle things beyond just body puppetry, if youre good at it.
    Toph isn't a Water bendier so she can't do that and 2: Toph isn't a Spirit Bender either so there's no reason to believe that she can manipulate Life Force, Soul energy, or someone's ghost.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Gaara can only really control sand, or sand like materials. He's only once fought people who can mess with his control. He often doesn't consciously control the sand that acts as his defense. Indeed, he has so little control over it, it will even block self inflicted injuries.
    The man has enough fine control to create a clone indistinguishable from his original form that can move, act, and talk, He can also create tendrils that seamlessly destroy rocks and minerals into a fine grit he can then control afterward, and form fully functional eyes out of sand that have perfect, real time vision of his surroundings. If you put it THAT way trumps anything anyone does in the entire Avatar franchise in terms of fine control. The automatic defense is an augmentation of his control, not a replacement.

    The bolded part is also not quite incorrect. Gaara also has Magnet Release (control over metal), though uses it very rarely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    As for Gaara's speed, well, I don't think we've ever seen Gaara move much at all, and his sand's speed doesn't look to be all that fast. If anything, it's slower than some of Toph's attacks.
    Gaara's sand is fast enough to intercept an attack in progress, from across the room, of a man who was at the point in time considered the fastest living ninja in the world. As of the end of the series he is "only" the third fastest in history, just shy of Naruto himself and the guy who could literally teleport. While exact numbers are hard to come by, he was fast enough the Sharingan couldn't track him (and it makes most people look like they move in slow motion) and could dodge hitscan attacks.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    The man has enough fine control to create a clone indistinguishable from his original form that can move, act, and talk, He can also create tendrils that seamlessly destroy rocks and minerals into a fine grit he can then control afterward, and form fully functional eyes out of sand that have perfect, real time vision of his surroundings. If you put it THAT way trumps anything anyone does in the entire Avatar franchise in terms of fine control. The automatic defense is an augmentation of his control, not a replacement.

    The bolded part is also not quite incorrect. Gaara also has Magnet Release (control over metal), though uses it very rarely.



    Gaara's sand is fast enough to intercept an attack in progress, from across the room, of a man who was at the point in time considered the fastest living ninja in the world. As of the end of the series he is "only" the third fastest in history, just shy of Naruto himself and the guy who could literally teleport. While exact numbers are hard to come by, he was fast enough the Sharingan couldn't track him (and it makes most people look like they move in slow motion) and could dodge hitscan attacks.
    The clone thing would be impressive if it didn't seem like pretty much every single ninja could do that. (I know not literally every ninja can, but it is a very common technique). Well that, and the clones are easily defeated with a single blow. The eye thing is true, I had forgotten about that. That is very impressive.

    The only time I remember him using it was to control iron (or gold?) dust. That's why I put it under sand like materials. Does he ever use it to control stuff like Kunai?

    Are you talking about when he fought Sasuke? Because a) Sasuke wasn't moving all that fast in that fight. and b) Sasuke's attacks had to go over a distance of maybe a dozen meters, while Gaara's sand had to move less than a meter.

    But really, I've never been impressed by the fights in Naruto. They are so boring, (and the tendency to have flash backs right in the middle of them does not help!), so I'll admit I've got a bias against Naruto when it comes to how powerful they are. This does make it pretty difficult to do research on Gaara, because oh my goodness it's so bloody boring! Even running them at double speed, it still takes forever for anything to happen.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post

    Are you talking about when he fought Sasuke? Because a) Sasuke wasn't moving all that fast in that fight. and b) Sasuke's attacks had to go over a distance of maybe a dozen meters, while Gaara's sand had to move less than a meter.
    I'm talking post-timeskip, Raikage (aforementioned fastest guy) vs Sasuke (maybe 2nd fastest living guy at the time?).



    Last 20 seconds or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    But really, I've never been impressed by the fights in Naruto. They are so boring, (and the tendency to have flash backs right in the middle of them does not help!), so I'll admit I've got a bias against Naruto when it comes to how powerful they are. This does make it pretty difficult to do research on Gaara, because oh my goodness it's so bloody boring! Even running them at double speed, it still takes forever for anything to happen.
    Naruto has some of the best choreographed fights in any Shonen out there, so I can't really gel with your mindset. Maybe if your only exposure is the anime, which has a lot of filler both in-episode and in general.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I'm talking post-timeskip, Raikage (aforementioned fastest guy) vs Sasuke (maybe 2nd fastest living guy at the time?).



    Last 20 seconds or so.



    Naruto has some of the best choreographed fights in any Shonen out there, so I can't really gel with your mindset. Maybe if your only exposure is the anime, which has a lot of filler both in-episode and in general.
    The off screen interception, which makes it really hard to give it a full calculation. Not to mention Naruto's really bad habit of slowing things down without any indication that they are actually slowing things down.

    I would disagree. I've actually swapped between the anime and the manga. Now, mind you, it wasn't the choreography that made me lose my temper with the story, it was the incessant flash backs. I can't remember which flash back pushed me over the edge. It might've been the one right after Obito's flashback.

    EDIT: Though Choreography wise, I'd put Naruto below FMA, Fate/Stay Night, Fate/Stay Zero, My Hero Academia, or hmm, well most of anything I've actually watched/read. It beats DBZ I guess.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Yes it does. In as much that either control makes any sort of sense.

    Admittedly, it would also make perfect sense for it to not work either.

    Or to put it another way,

    Toph can control any sand, earth, or metal. If it comes out of the ground she can manipulate it. And with the ability to make elaborate structures, and the precision to land precise blows. She is used to fighting people who can bend the same elements as her, and she can affect their control to the point where she was the best duelists at the age of what? 11?

    Gaara can only really control sand, or sand like materials. He's only once fought people who can mess with his control. He often doesn't consciously control the sand that acts as his defense. Indeed, he has so little control over it, it will even block self inflicted injuries.

    I'd say it makes a lot of sense that the first person can steal the second person's stuff. When I put it like that.
    Gaara can control Earth, Wind and Lightning. These are skills which any ninja can learn, though most people cap at one or two. The Earth element includes control of sand, and Gaara lives in a desert where using it this way is common.

    Separate from this, Gaara is capable of the Magnet Release, an "advanced element" combining the Earth and Wind elements. This isn't something people can normally learn - it requires either a rare bloodline, or being bound to one of nine powerful spirits Avatar-style, and Gaara fits both categories. Advanced elements are capable of overwhelming basic elements - e.g. advanced Fire creates black flames that burn even fire. Because Gaara uses Magnet Release to control his sand (and sometimes metal), it overrides sand control based on Earth powers - even as an untrained child Gaara was able to defend himself from sand-controlling assassins effortlessly. The other side of this is that Magnet Release is cancelled out by lightning... but while this works on teen Gaara, adult Gaara's sand is easily tanking attacks from the most powerful lightning-users in history.

    Separate from this, his sand is also haunted by his mother's ghost, making it further resistant to control.

    Madara Uchiha, memetically known as one of the most stupidly overpowered characters in fiction, praises Gaara's sand for remaining unaffected when he negates the attacks of other top-level fighters in the setting, calling it truly worthy of its title "The Ultimate Defence".

    EDIT: Actually looking at a compilation video of Toph's best bending feats, I'd say Toph outclasses Gaara when it comes to skill. Gaara would win on reaction time. They seem pretty close when it comes to raw power, but Toph can harden the sand just as fast as Gaara could break it down, and well she doesn't need to break it down to keep attacking. As for Gaara's speed, well, I don't think we've ever seen Gaara move much at all, and his sand's speed doesn't look to be all that fast. If anything, it's slower than some of Toph's attacks.
    Gaara can use the basic "move so fast you seem to teleport" ninja technique, and he's a good enough martial artist to mentor others, he just prefers to hang back and be patient. By the end of the series, his sand is fast enough to block lightning and gaze attacks after they're fired.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Nah, this is death battle, it will ramp up from basic combat to alchemy and bending to avatar state in the end. While technically it makes sense to go full power right at the start in a true death battle, its a lot less amusing to watch.
    There’s another reason other than “its death battle” and every fight has to ramp up like it does in...most every dramatic fight scene you ever watched or read.

    Both Aang and Edward are not the type to go directly for the finish. In fact, neither would kill the other except that DB changes that part of the character. The two fight in a way that’s consistent with how they fight in their own media.

    Aang will not immediately enter the Avatar state, but Ed will not go straight for the kill either. The fight will ramp up gradually. Any differences in strength, speed, etc may appear but even when the combatants are greatly outmatched (as in Flash v. Quicksilver or Lucy v. Carnage) it will not look like a total curve stomp until it the final part of the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    As of the end of the series he is "only" the third fastest in history, just shy of Naruto himself and the guy who could literally teleport. While exact numbers are hard to come by, he was fast enough the Sharingan couldn't track him (and it makes most people look like they move in slow motion) and could dodge hitscan attacks.
    If we’re talking the actual fight between Gaara and Toph we are going back a ways. Naruto was still on-going and end-shippuden Gaara was not a thing. There is no question that Gaara as of the end of Naruto Shippuden would totally curve-stomp Toph, as that version shows the entire range of ninja martial arts and tricks, including speed, and lots of new special abilities (although he doesn’t have the Shukaku anymore).

    Kid-Gaara though, he just sort of stands there and relies on his sand manipulation. Gaara of the Sand Waterfall doesn’t use and is canonically is weak on taijitsu abilities (he later trains them up).

    I don’t think there’s any question post-ninja war Gaara beats any version of Toph, especially granny Toph. In fact, that version of Gaara would beat also Aang hands down and maybe also Ichigo. What we were dealing with though, was an earlier version of Gaara.

    Of course, FMA have now both have had their full run. We are going with Ed after fully realizing his alchemy together with all the techniques he picked up. He’ll be fighting a composite Aang with all his adult abilities (but both will probably look like kids).

    FMA isn’t Naruto level of silliness though, I say Ed will beat Aang based on Aang’s weakness to being surprised or denied material to bend, but Avatar Aang has the clear advantage in pure destructive power.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2019-07-09 at 05:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    If we’re talking the actual fight between Gaara and Toph we are going back a ways. Naruto was still on-going and end-shippuden Gaara was not a thing. There is no question that Gaara as of the end of Naruto Shippuden would totally curve-stomp Toph, as that version shows the entire range of ninja martial arts and tricks, including speed, and lots of new special abilities (although he doesn’t have the Shukaku anymore).

    Kid-Gaara though, he just sort of stands there and relies on his sand manipulation. Gaara of the Sand Waterfall doesn’t use and is canonically is weak on taijitsu abilities (he later trains them up).

    I don’t think there’s any question post-ninja war Gaara beats any version of Toph, especially granny Toph. In fact, that version of Gaara would beat also Aang hands down and maybe also Ichigo. What we were dealing with though, was an earlier version of Gaara.
    Toph vs Gaara aired three months after the final chapter of Naruto.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    FMA isn’t Naruto level of silliness though, I say Ed will beat Aang based on Aang’s weakness to being surprised or denied material to bend, but Avatar Aang has the clear advantage in pure destructive power.
    It would have to be an instant kill, though. The Avatar State has been repeatedly shown to trigger automatically as an emergency defense, even if the Avatar is unconscious or while the Avatar is actively resisting it.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    The off screen interception, which makes it really hard to give it a full calculation. Not to mention Naruto's really bad habit of slowing things down without any indication that they are actually slowing things down.

    I would disagree. I've actually swapped between the anime and the manga. Now, mind you, it wasn't the choreography that made me lose my temper with the story, it was the incessant flash backs. I can't remember which flash back pushed me over the edge. It might've been the one right after Obito's flashback.

    EDIT: Though Choreography wise, I'd put Naruto below FMA, Fate/Stay Night, Fate/Stay Zero, My Hero Academia, or hmm, well most of anything I've actually watched/read. It beats DBZ I guess.
    I love MHA, but its fights are mostly spectacle and strategy, not choreography. Same with FMA, and I won't touch on Fate since the entire extended franchise gave me such a headache when I tried to find an entry point I just wrote it off entirely.

    Naruto in its climactic fights generally has movie level choreography, move by move mapped out in point/counterpoint attacks and defenses in both the manga and anime. This is a credit even most people who hate the series give it, with this being commonly recognized as one of the better ones, and one of only a few times the flashbacks actually enhance the fight (since they don't interrupt it):



    Nothing in MHA matches that except maybe the fight with Stain, at least as far as the anime has gotten (I decided to be anime-only for MHA).

    Similarly good fights: Gaara vs Lee, Naruto and Sasuke's two major fights (one pre-timeskip, the other at the very end of the series), and the (abridged) version of the fight between Sakura/Chiyo and Sasori, which is marred by too many dialogue breaks otherwise.

    Edit: Posted the wrong version of the video.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-07-09 at 05:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Im not talking about garras physical speed when im talking speed, im talking speed of his attacks which can intercept attacks moving so fast a human sized object cant even be SEEN and it still gets blocked, to the linked video of the raikage where he is literally blocking an attack by one of the fastest ninja on earth by reacting in time to spotting the fact that landing that hit would be suicide and sending in his sand to stop it. That is just utterly absurd on both reaction time and attack speed. Narutoverse is literally superhuman in every aspect. Avatar is not. Avatar people are more or less bog standard humans with the ability to control elements.

    And yes, the fluff behind his personal sand explains exactly why toph shouldnt be able to take control of his sand. At the very least not his personal supply that defends him automatically. But even if she COULD that still doesnt change the simple truth. She has no ability to detect an attack coming in at supersonic speeds, and react in time to block/dodge/control it before it perforates her. Vibrations can only travel at the speed of sound, his attacks frequently move faster than that. She is dead before she knows an attack is coming. She doesnt have the ability to detect an attack incoming that fast or do anything about it even if she did detect it.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    Toph vs Gaara aired three months after the final chapter of Naruto.
    In English? I rewatched the video now and it has images of Gaara from the ninja war although not the end of the ninja war.

    Still, given all the material out, its clear that Gaara was superior to Toph at the time in speed and power, unless Toph doesn’t need her arms to bend and can kill Gaara in his armor at anytime it just...doesn’t....make...sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    It would have to be an instant kill, though. The Avatar State has been repeatedly shown to trigger automatically as an emergency defense, even if the Avatar is unconscious or while the Avatar is actively resisting it.
    Not always. Recall lots of previous Avatars died untimely deaths. If the Avatar dies in Avatar form the death is canonically the end of the Avatar state.

    Still, I’m taking it as a given Aang will show off the Avatar state. Probably on purpose rather than as any sort of defense.

    Aang nearly got killed by Azula after entering the fully realized Avatar state. Only the spirit water brought him back. In the avatar state, Aang is said to be at his “most powerful” but also, his “most vulnerable.”

    Despite his power, Aang can totally be killed in the Avatar state.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I love MHA, but its fights are mostly spectacle and strategy, not choreography. Same with FMA, and I won't touch on Fate since the entire extended franchise gave me such a headache when I tried to find an entry point I just wrote it off entirely.

    Naruto in its climactic fights generally has movie level choreography, move by move mapped out in point/counterpoint attacks and defenses in both the manga and anime. This is a credit even most people who hate the series give it, with this being commonly recognized as one of the better ones, and one of only a few times the flashbacks actually enhance the fight (since they don't interrupt it):



    Nothing in MHA matches that except maybe the fight with Stain, at least as far as the anime has gotten (I decided to be anime-only for MHA).

    Similarly good fights: Gaara vs Lee, Naruto and Sasuke's two major fights (one pre-timeskip, the other at the very end of the series), and the (abridged) version of the fight between Sakura/Chiyo and Sasori, which is marred by too many dialogue breaks otherwise.

    Edit: Posted the wrong version of the video.
    That was a really good fight.

    My problem with so many of Naruto's fights is how...little impact the blows have. The characters will take blow after blow and there will be massive explosions, and they'll still be fighting. Which is really exacerbated by how long the fight scenes are. Like this fight:

    Sasuke vs Naruto final battle

    It's a good 20 some minutes of explosions, punches, and so on. They go from punching each other across the valley to being exhausted to punching each other across the valley again, to one final blow that they of course slam directly into each other's attacks.

    Vs my all time favorite fight scene:

    Kirei Kotomine vs Kirisugu Emiya

    The fight is 5 minutes long, and each person actually takes damage. They get hurt, and them being hurt visibly impacts their fight. And it's so quick and punchy that the impact of each blow is exaggerated rather than diminished.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Toph isn't a Water bendier so she can't do that and 2: Toph isn't a Spirit Bender either so there's no reason to believe that she can manipulate Life Force, Soul energy, or someone's ghost.
    No, but she can manipulate and control sand. The point was to establish that being alive, or having a soul or whatever doesnt inherently make you immune to bending.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    That was a really good fight.

    My problem with so many of Naruto's fights is how...little impact the blows have. The characters will take blow after blow and there will be massive explosions, and they'll still be fighting. Which is really exacerbated by how long the fight scenes are. Like this fight:

    Sasuke vs Naruto final battle

    It's a good 20 some minutes of explosions, punches, and so on. They go from punching each other across the valley to being exhausted to punching each other across the valley again, to one final blow that they of course slam directly into each other's attacks.

    Vs my all time favorite fight scene:

    Kirei Kotomine vs Kirisugu Emiya

    The fight is 5 minutes long, and each person actually takes damage. They get hurt, and them being hurt visibly impacts their fight. And it's so quick and punchy that the impact of each blow is exaggerated rather than diminished.

    Maybe a preference on power levels/relative durability then. Naruto's universe is pretty high on the scale in regard to physical feats in media, where from what I know of the Fate series most of the characters are roughly average (if superhumanly athletic) people with consistent powersets and a smattering of blockbuster power moves that serve as effective fight enders.

    One has physical durability as a main decider, and the other one...spiritual durability might be the right term? It's one person's resolve vs another's, with an added "energy meter goes down" effect.

    I like both. The fight you posted was excellent, and it reminds me of some of my other favorite series' action scenes (Darker Than Black, HunterxHunter, etc.) which are "toolbox fights". You tend to run out of options or body parts, rather than power.

    But I can also appreciate fights depend on power meters, particularly with how thematically well done the final Sasuke/Naruto fight is. They work backwards, which is unique for an anime fight. They start at zero, very quickly work their way up to their biggest moves, and then just as quickly REGRESS through the different power-up modes they gained over the course of the series until they're left exactly where they were at the end of their first true clash: a final assault from their respective Signature Moves in their absolute simplest forms.

    It's a fight of grit, spectacle, and theming (with some damn good hand to hand choreography) rather than raw strategy which I appreciate in a lot of series' fight scenes (like many in My Hero Academia and Gurren Lagann).

    But I am unabashed Shonen Trash so I can completely ignore a lot of simplistic fight elements if it gives me the feelsies and looks good. =)

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Maybe a preference on power levels/relative durability then. Naruto's universe is pretty high on the scale in regard to physical feats in media, where from what I know of the Fate series most of the characters are roughly average (if superhumanly athletic) people with consistent powersets and a smattering of blockbuster power moves that serve as effective fight enders.

    One has physical durability as a main decider, and the other one...spiritual durability might be the right term? It's one person's resolve vs another's, with an added "energy meter goes down" effect.

    I like both. The fight you posted was excellent, and it reminds me of some of my other favorite series' action scenes (Darker Than Black, HunterxHunter, etc.) which are "toolbox fights". You tend to run out of options or body parts, rather than power.

    But I can also appreciate fights depend on power meters, particularly with how thematically well done the final Sasuke/Naruto fight is. They work backwards, which is unique for an anime fight. They start at zero, very quickly work their way up to their biggest moves, and then just as quickly REGRESS through the different power-up modes they gained over the course of the series until they're left exactly where they were at the end of their first true clash: a final assault from their respective Signature Moves in their absolute simplest forms.

    It's a fight of grit, spectacle, and theming (with some damn good hand to hand choreography) rather than raw strategy which I appreciate in a lot of series' fight scenes (like many in My Hero Academia and Gurren Lagann).

    But I am unabashed Shonen Trash so I can completely ignore a lot of simplistic fight elements if it gives me the feelsies and looks good. =)
    Tbf, that Fate fight scene is between two humans (and relatively low power humans, in that they don't use a lot of magic, though they are good physical combatants for humans.) Most of the fights are between Servants (people from legends summoned to the modern world, like King Arthur, Gilgamesh, Hercules, Cu Chulainn, etc.), who are definitely superhuman. See this for an example of two Servants fighting (and they aren't taking it too seriously):
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    No, but she can manipulate and control sand. The point was to establish that being alive, or having a soul or whatever doesnt inherently make you immune to bending.
    The thing is, its not about being alive, its about how toph isnt just taking control of sand, its taking control of sand that is being actively controlled by someone else and is actually POSSESSED by the soul of another person as well. Thats just so far outside of tophs experience or avatar in general that claiming she can just take it over is silly. In addition to that, its a different source of power being used to control the elements. Magic, chakra, telekinesis, they arent the same even if they can achieve the same results, and expecting the rules of one universe to carry over to another one entirely without any evidence that such is the case is silly. It would be one thing to claim she can control sand that garra hurls at her as those are fire and forget attacks similar to how bending attacks generally work, but just declaring that one of the most powerful users of a specific element in one setting can just go to another setting and casually take control away from the most powerful user in THAT setting is dumb. It was obvious the second they said that, that they wanted toph to win because it was literally the only thing that could have worked for her. And again, it ignores all the way that even if it WAS possible, it wouldnt matter because knowing how to block a punch doesnt help when your opponent is so much faster than you, you cant even see the punches to block them.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    No, but she can manipulate and control sand. The point was to establish that being alive, or having a soul or whatever doesnt inherently make you immune to bending.
    No.

    The point is that she needs to be able to control blood, life force, soul juice, and ghosts and be more powerful that Gaara before she can reasonably be expected to take Gaara's sand away from him, let alone use it against him.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    No.

    The point is that she needs to be able to control blood, life force, soul juice, and ghosts and be more powerful that Gaara before she can reasonably be expected to take Gaara's sand away from him, let alone use it against him.
    Why? Youre arbitrarily declaring Gaara's claim to be stronger without giving any support. Theyre both basically magic, what makes his magic better? It cant just be the soul stuff, because bending works on people, who have souls.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    I also have never understood why Garaa's soul sand should be unbendable just because there's a spirit in it.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    I don't think it should be unbendable because of fluff reasons, I think it should be unbendable because Gaara has demonstrated that he can produce vastly more force in manipulating sand than Toph has. In the same way the winner of a tug-of-war should be the one who demonstrates the most muscle strength, the one who keeps control of their element is that who can lift the most and move it the fastest.

    Otherwise you have this fanfic-reasoning which is whatever you want, really.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Why? Youre arbitrarily declaring Gaara's claim to be stronger without giving any support. Theyre both basically magic, what makes his magic better? It cant just be the soul stuff, because bending works on people, who have souls.
    No.

    Toph controls Earth.

    Gaara is not only significantly more powerful than Toph, but his personal supply of sand isn't just sand.

    It's sand... and blood. And infused with Gaara's life-force and soul-stuff(the stuff that chakra is made of.)

    It's essentially an extension of his Will.

    If Gaara and Toph are trying to control it at the same time, Toph's attempt should just automatically fail becuase she's controlling Sand while Gaara is controlling an extension of his own being and doing so with far more power than Toph is, meanwhile, Toph can only control part of the mass of the sand, since she lacks the ability to bend blood, souls, or life-force and that's a significant chunk of Gaara's personal sand supply.

    In addition to this, Gaara's sand is literally possessed by the ghost of Gaara's mother and instilled with a desire to protect Gaara. If Gaara is not consciously controlling his sand, his mother is moving it to protect him.

    In order to take Gaara's sand from him and use it against him, Toph, who is at an extreme disadvantage becuase she's only able to control like, the least important part of Gaara's personal reserves of sand, has to wretch control of it away from Gaara, who is far, far stronger than her, and make it go against the fundamental nature it gets from his mother's soul.
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