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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    No.

    Toph controls Earth.

    Gaara is not only significantly more powerful than Toph, but his personal supply of sand isn't just sand.

    It's sand... and blood. And infused with Gaara's life-force and soul-stuff(the stuff that chakra is made of.)

    It's essentially an extension of his Will.

    If Gaara and Toph are trying to control it at the same time, Toph's attempt should just automatically fail becuase she's controlling Sand while Gaara is controlling an extension of his own being and doing so with far more power than Toph is, meanwhile, Toph can only control part of the mass of the sand, since she lacks the ability to bend blood, souls, or life-force and that's a significant chunk of Gaara's personal sand supply.

    In addition to this, Gaara's sand is literally possessed by the ghost of Gaara's mother and instilled with a desire to protect Gaara. If Gaara is not consciously controlling his sand, his mother is moving it to protect him.

    In order to take Gaara's sand from him and use it against him, Toph, who is at an extreme disadvantage becuase she's only able to control like, the least important part of Gaara's personal reserves of sand, has to wretch control of it away from Gaara, who is far, far stronger than her, and make it go against the fundamental nature it gets from his mother's soul.
    Youre missing the point. It doesn't matter that Gaara's sand is magically possessed or whatever. bending explicitly doesn't care about that. The only argument here that's remotely relevant is the claim that Gaara's power is stronger than Toph's power, and you aren't actually backing that up with anything.

    Now I'll be the first one to admit that I don't know much about Naruto, so for all I know, you could be correct, but you aren't actually supporting your assertion at all. Forget the souls, forget the possession, its all irrelevant. If that was the only thing working here, Toph would win, period, end of story, do not collect $200. Demonstrate to me that Gaara's power is stronger than Toph's.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Youre missing the point. It doesn't matter that Gaara's sand is magically possessed or whatever. bending explicitly doesn't care about that. The only argument here that's remotely relevant is the claim that Gaara's power is stronger than Toph's power, and you aren't actually backing that up with anything.

    Now I'll be the first one to admit that I don't know much about Naruto, so for all I know, you could be correct, but you aren't actually supporting your assertion at all. Forget the souls, forget the possession, its all irrelevant. If that was the only thing working here, Toph would win, period, end of story, do not collect $200. Demonstrate to me that Gaara's power is stronger than Toph's.
    Exactly, If we're talking about how Gaara has controled a larger amount of material than Toph had controlled, that's one thing to actually use as valid. It The sand having extra stuff in it wouldn't make it any less usable in bending.

    I agree that Gaara has more raw power, And any tug of war should be one by Gaara. I don't think anyone's disputing this. But if other stuff being in an element affected your ability to use said element. Then Blood bending Most Earth bending wouldn't work. because of impurities.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    [QUOTE=Keltest;24022869]Youre missing the point. It doesn't matter that Gaara's sand is magically possessed or whatever. bending explicitly doesn't care about that. The only argument here that's remotely relevant is the claim that Gaara's power is stronger than Toph's power, and you aren't actually backing that up with anything.[quote]

    No, you're missing the point.

    1:Toph controls earth and earthen impurities in metal.

    Gaara's personal supply of sand is earth, blood, his chakra(which is to say, is life force and spiritual energy), and his mom's ghost. Considering the number of people he's killed and "fed" their blood to the sand, Gaara's personal supply of sand is arguably more blood than anything else.

    Toph's ability to control it should innately be limited since she can only control part of what its made of.

    2: The sand is not inert soil. It's not like it's a battle of will between two people over the same unrelated rock. The blood and chakra treatments on the sand are meant to make it easier for Gaara to control and less energy intesive. It is, for all intents and purposes, part of Gaara's body. An extension of his soul.

    Toph is an outside party trying to seize control of what is basically an extension of Gaara's own self while Gaara himself is activly using it. In a battle of wills over an extension of one party's will, the party who actually owns the extension ofg will should automatically win.

    3: In addition to being an extension of Gaara's will, the sand has a will of it's own due to being possessed by his mother's ghost and instilled with her desire to protect him no matter what.

    Now, we don't know if Toph can bend living earth, I don't think living Earth is a thing in Avatar, but at the very least Gaara's sand would be actively resisting her control and moving against her to try and avoid bringing Harm to Gaara.

    4: Bringing it together: Toph has an innate disadvantage when controlling Gaara's personal supply of sand, as it's mostly things that aren't earth. Gaara, meanwhile, has an innate advantage as the sand is treated in such a way as to make it an extension of his will and body. In a battle of wills, it's a three way fight between Toph, Gaara, and the ghost whose only goal is to protect Gaara so Toph would be fighting on two fronts to get control og the sand.

    Toph could only win that battle of wills if her own raw power dwarfed Gaara's, and it uh... Doesn't.

    Now I'll be the first one to admit that I don't know much about Naruto, so for all I know, you could be correct, but you aren't actually supporting your assertion at all. Forget the souls, forget the possession, its all irrelevant. If that was the only thing working here, Toph would win, period, end of story, do not collect $200. Demonstrate to me that Gaara's power is stronger than Toph's.
    I don't have to.

    Other people have made the argument for me, pointing out that Naruto simply operates on a higher scale than Avatar does.

    If I absolutely have to give examples though:

    In the Sasuke Retrial Arc, Gaara floods a

    From Early on in part II, he creates a wave of sand the size of a decently sized city. This is not his personal supply of sand. It's just sand that was kind of laying around.

    He is exponentially stronger by the end of the series, to the point that his father(reanimated as an immortal zombie by a villain) assumes that the sand control he's seeing is Shukaku unrestrained. This is after Shukaku is extracted, meaning that it's all Gaara. Gaara's father has fought Shukaku several times, so he knows exactly what he's talking about.

    Gaara's father uses Magnet Releases to use strong electromagnetic fields to magnetize gold dust, becuase gold dust has properties that make it superior to sand for the kind of techniques that Gaara and Shukaku use(Gaara used to be a little psycho, needed a way to keep him in line.)

    Gaara is easily able to match and overpower his father's techniques which are specifically designed to overpower Gaara's own by the time they formally fight onscreen.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Youre missing the point. It doesn't matter that Gaara's sand is magically possessed or whatever. bending explicitly doesn't care about that. The only argument here that's remotely relevant is the claim that Gaara's power is stronger than Toph's power, and you aren't actually backing that up with anything.
    No, you're missing the point.

    1:Toph controls earth and earthen impurities in metal.

    Gaara's personal supply of sand is earth, blood, his chakra(which is to say, is life force and spiritual energy), and his mom's ghost. Considering the number of people he's killed and "fed" their blood to the sand, Gaara's personal supply of sand is arguably more blood than anything else.

    Toph's ability to control it should innately be limited since she can only control part of what its made of.

    2: The sand is not inert soil. It's not like it's a battle of will between two people over the same unrelated rock. The blood and chakra treatments on the sand are meant to make it easier for Gaara to control and less energy intesive. It is, for all intents and purposes, part of Gaara's body. An extension of his soul.

    Toph is an outside party trying to seize control of what is basically an extension of Gaara's own self while Gaara himself is activly using it. In a battle of wills over an extension of one party's will, the party who actually owns the extension ofg will should automatically win.

    3: In addition to being an extension of Gaara's will, the sand has a will of it's own due to being possessed by his mother's ghost and instilled with her desire to protect him no matter what.

    Now, we don't know if Toph can bend living earth, I don't think living Earth is a thing in Avatar, but at the very least Gaara's sand would be actively resisting her control and moving against her to try and avoid bringing Harm to Gaara.

    4: Bringing it together: Toph has an innate disadvantage when controlling Gaara's personal supply of sand, as it's mostly things that aren't earth. Gaara, meanwhile, has an innate advantage as the sand is treated in such a way as to make it an extension of his will and body. In a battle of wills, it's a three way fight between Toph, Gaara, and the ghost whose only goal is to protect Gaara so Toph would be fighting on two fronts to get control og the sand.

    Toph could only win that battle of wills if her own raw power dwarfed Gaara's, and it uh... Doesn't.
    Point 1: this actually supports me, not you. Toph has demonstrated an ability to control an entire object even though the object is not made entirely of her bending material. To that end, the fact that it isn't pure sand is irrelevant. At best, it would split into its component elements, with Gaara controlling a cloud of dried blood particles while Toph controls the sand.

    Point 2: Just because you think that doesn't mean its true. Bending overrides personal control, period. It just does. Being a part of somebody does not protect you from bending, hence the bloodbending example.

    Point 3: Same deal. Being a part of a "living" or at least intelligent entity does not protect you from bending. You can apply your own force against it, but that doesn't affect the ability of the bender to affect you, it would just damage your body from the strain. This is maybe less important to something that doesn't actually need a solid body to exist, but it isn't a point in his favor at all either.

    And thus, to point 4: This is, again, just you declaring Toph to be at a disadvantage here, in spite of explicit evidence that it doesn't work that way. Toph controls the sand and Gaara has nothing that actually limits her ability to control that sand. All he can do is try and exercise his own control over it, so it comes back down to "is he stronger at controlling sand than Toph?" Which is the whole freaking point. Maybe he is. I don't even care at this point, the fight is long done. But you aren't arguing from a position of strength here because you keep insisting that specific canon powers just don't apply for some reason.

    The point is, if we remove Gaara's own personal ability to control sand from the equation, Toph doesn't even notice a difference. Therefore Gaara needs to match her with his own raw power, and all the fancy external boosts to his personal sand supply don't matter because TLA went out of their way to demonstrate that bending is unaffected by those kinds of things. Its like protesting that Aang couldnt bend air that was moving through a fan first.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2019-07-10 at 10:16 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Point 1: this actually supports me, not you. Toph has demonstrated an ability to control an entire object even though the object is not made entirely of her bending material. To that end, the fact that it isn't pure sand is irrelevant. At best, it would split into its component elements, with Gaara controlling a cloud of dried blood particles while Toph controls the sand.

    Point 2: Just because you think that doesn't mean its true. Bending overrides personal control, period. It just does. Being a part of somebody does not protect you from bending, hence the bloodbending example.

    Point 3: Same deal. Being a part of a "living" or at least intelligent entity does not protect you from bending. You can apply your own force against it, but that doesn't affect the ability of the bender to affect you, it would just damage your body from the strain. This is maybe less important to something that doesn't actually need a solid body to exist, but it isn't a point in his favor at all either.

    And thus, to point 4: This is, again, just you declaring Toph to be at a disadvantage here, in spite of explicit evidence that it doesn't work that way. Toph controls the sand and Gaara has nothing that actually limits her ability to control that sand. All he can do is try and exercise his own control over it, so it comes back down to "is he stronger at controlling sand than Toph?" Which is the whole freaking point. Maybe he is. I don't even care at this point, the fight is long done. But you aren't arguing from a position of strength here because you keep insisting that specific canon powers just don't apply for some reason.

    The point is, if we remove Gaara's own personal ability to control sand from the equation, Toph doesn't even notice a difference. Therefore Gaara needs to match her with his own raw power, and all the fancy external boosts to his personal sand supply don't matter because TLA went out of their way to demonstrate that bending is unaffected by those kinds of things. Its like protesting that Aang couldnt bend air that was moving through a fan first.
    Bending does not over ride personal control. At best it over rides other benders control and even then you have to be better at it. Toph has nothing that says she can take control of his sand while he is using it. They just unilaterally declared that her school of magic is more powerful than his backed by nothing. This is a solid battle of shippuden era garra showing off his strength. This is not where he was at his peak but he is still fighting a long range battle protecting an entire city from a guy dropping everything from grenades to pocket nukes all over the place while controlling enough sand to attack this guy from lord knows what distance but an easy estimate being within a mile or two of his location. Thats an absurd amount of power and control. He is manipulating entire beaches worth of sand multiple times over for attacking on multiple angles, deflecting attacks against himself, protecting the city from bombs. Even half conscious injured and exhausted he was still able to move a city crushing mountain of sand outside city limits before collapsing. When did toph do stuff on this level?
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    No.

    Toph controls Earth.

    Gaara is not only significantly more powerful than Toph, but his personal supply of sand isn't just sand.

    It's sand... and blood. And infused with Gaara's life-force and soul-stuff(the stuff that chakra is made of.)

    It's essentially an extension of his Will.]
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Point 1: ... Toph has demonstrated an ability to control an entire object even though the object is not made entirely of her bending material. To that end, the fact that it isn't pure sand is irrelevant.

    Point 2: ...Bending overrides personal control, period. It just does. Being a part of somebody does not protect you from bending, hence the bloodbending example.

    Point 3: Same deal. Being a part of a "living" or at least intelligent entity does not protect you from bending.

    ...
    This is a logical way of explaining how bending works based on the evidence you give. It simply overrides anyone's will, as in blood bending. Problem is we have seen Bloodbending get overridden (scroll to the bottom of the wiki). In addition to other water benders being able to do so, the Avatar in Avatar state can defeat it, and Gaara is shown manipulating sand on a scale only the Avatar could.

    Its simply not true that bending always and in all cases overrides whatever other forces are at work upon the object. Its just usually the case, probably because bending is more powerful than most of the other stuff in the Avatar-verse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Bending does not over ride personal control. At best it over rides other benders control and even then you have to be better at it. Toph has nothing that says she can take control of his sand while he is using it. They just unilaterally declared that her school of magic is more powerful than his backed by nothing.
    The nature of death battle requires that characters with powers that are unique to their own universe will interact seamlessly with another character's powers from a totally different universe. We usually don't see struggling over the same material, but when you see it, its generally one with more power that wins.

    Its not like there's nothing to hang on that bending can defeat other forces on the objects, the problem is the evidence is not completely one-sided because there are examples of bending being defeated by other bending or overwhelming strength.

    The thing is, all this fighting over bending should be irrelevant because Gaara should simply be at a totally different level of strength, speed, durability and skill to Toph. It's like if Bruce Lee fought the Hulk. It's like having a high school basketball team play against an NBA champion team. For a unique trick to overcome that difference it has to be something really special, and Gaara has his own tricks are all on different scale.

    Upon seeing how late in Naruto they actually had access to, I can't find any reason anymore why Gaara should lose. Every scenario where Toph can eek out a victory requires minimizing or making irrelevant Gaara's own much more formidable abilities.

    Sure, you can come up with reasons why Toph has an auto-win button, but you can do the same for Gaara. Gaara should be able to win with a basic attack delivered at speed Toph can't deal with (if the speed of sound operates like in our universe, she shouldn't even see it coming). Deathbattle is premised on the idea that you can smash two characters from different universe together in a confrontation, and the cast and crew expend a lot of energy saying they are honestly being fair in how they analyze the two and determine the victor. There's no proof bending simply overrides Gaara's ability to control his sand, there's certainly no evidence Toph is faster than Gaara, and everything about the two universes and the relative feats we see show that Gaara is far stronger and more durable.

    Its quite clear they sell Gaara short in their analysis. The result is simply wrong.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    This is a logical way of explaining how bending works based on the evidence you give. It simply overrides anyone's will, as in blood bending. Problem is we have seen Bloodbending get overridden (scroll to the bottom of the wiki). In addition to other water benders being able to do so, the Avatar in Avatar state can defeat it, and Gaara is shown manipulating sand on a scale only the Avatar could.

    Its simply not true that bending always and in all cases overrides whatever other forces are at work upon the object. Its just usually the case, probably because bending is more powerful than most of the other stuff in the Avatar-verse.



    The nature of death battle requires that characters with powers that are unique to their own universe will interact seamlessly with another character's powers from a totally different universe. We usually don't see struggling over the same material, but when you see it, its generally one with more power that wins.

    Its not like there's nothing to hang on that bending can defeat other forces on the objects, the problem is the evidence is not completely one-sided because there are examples of bending being defeated by other bending or overwhelming strength.

    The thing is, all this fighting over bending should be irrelevant because Gaara should simply be at a totally different level of strength, speed, durability and skill to Toph. It's like if Bruce Lee fought the Hulk. It's like having a high school basketball team play against an NBA champion team. For a unique trick to overcome that difference it has to be something really special, and Gaara has his own tricks are all on different scale.

    Upon seeing how late in Naruto they actually had access to, I can't find any reason anymore why Gaara should lose. Every scenario where Toph can eek out a victory requires minimizing or making irrelevant Gaara's own much more formidable abilities.

    Sure, you can come up with reasons why Toph has an auto-win button, but you can do the same for Gaara. Gaara should be able to win with a basic attack delivered at speed Toph can't deal with (if the speed of sound operates like in our universe, she shouldn't even see it coming). Deathbattle is premised on the idea that you can smash two characters from different universe together in a confrontation, and the cast and crew expend a lot of energy saying they are honestly being fair in how they analyze the two and determine the victor. There's no proof bending simply overrides Gaara's ability to control his sand, there's certainly no evidence Toph is faster than Gaara, and everything about the two universes and the relative feats we see show that Gaara is far stronger and more durable.

    Its quite clear they sell Gaara short in their analysis. The result is simply wrong.
    ..... true. The next question becomes... was it lack of research or bias that resulted in the incorrect conclusion? Years ago, I would lean towards the former, but as the series gone on, as well as how some fights were picked initially, I'm heavily in the latter.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Maybe a preference on power levels/relative durability then. Naruto's universe is pretty high on the scale in regard to physical feats in media, where from what I know of the Fate series most of the characters are roughly average (if superhumanly athletic) people with consistent powersets and a smattering of blockbuster power moves that serve as effective fight enders.

    One has physical durability as a main decider, and the other one...spiritual durability might be the right term? It's one person's resolve vs another's, with an added "energy meter goes down" effect.

    I like both. The fight you posted was excellent, and it reminds me of some of my other favorite series' action scenes (Darker Than Black, HunterxHunter, etc.) which are "toolbox fights". You tend to run out of options or body parts, rather than power.

    But I can also appreciate fights depend on power meters, particularly with how thematically well done the final Sasuke/Naruto fight is. They work backwards, which is unique for an anime fight. They start at zero, very quickly work their way up to their biggest moves, and then just as quickly REGRESS through the different power-up modes they gained over the course of the series until they're left exactly where they were at the end of their first true clash: a final assault from their respective Signature Moves in their absolute simplest forms.

    It's a fight of grit, spectacle, and theming (with some damn good hand to hand choreography) rather than raw strategy which I appreciate in a lot of series' fight scenes (like many in My Hero Academia and Gurren Lagann).

    But I am unabashed Shonen Trash so I can completely ignore a lot of simplistic fight elements if it gives me the feelsies and looks good. =)
    It's tough to say what exactly doesn't appeal to me about Naruto's fights. Well, stuff that isn't the flashbacks. That one is obvious. But even with those removed, I often find them boring and silly. It's not just power level (though I do typically enjoy lower powered fights), I've really enjoyed Terra Toppa Gurren Lagen and Kill La Kill before, and their fights are literally ridiculous. It might be length, I'm not sure what the longest fight scene I've seen is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it belonged to Naruto. It might be characters, Naruto is good enough, but I despise Sasuke because he is just awful.

    Or maybe it's just the fact that even removed, the flashbacks make the fights choppy in places where they used to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    I don't think it should be unbendable because of fluff reasons, I think it should be unbendable because Gaara has demonstrated that he can produce vastly more force in manipulating sand than Toph has. In the same way the winner of a tug-of-war should be the one who demonstrates the most muscle strength, the one who keeps control of their element is that who can lift the most and move it the fastest.
    Actually, is that true? Toph has shattered cliffs before and apparently has a range across an entire city. I mean, Toph certainly strikes with less of force, but that's because you usually don't see her kill, she tends to just trap and immobilize. But she does do big things that makes in unclear who actually has more raw power.



    As for adding blood making it harder for Toph to bend, well that's not true. Wet mud is just as easy to bend as dirt is. A controlling spirit? Eh, maybe? Spirits are a thing in Avatar, but I don't know if Toph ever interacted with one. Does anyone know? We might actually have an easy answer to this question.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Actually, is that true? Toph has shattered cliffs before and apparently has a range across an entire city. I mean, Toph certainly strikes with less of force, but that's because you usually don't see her kill, she tends to just trap and immobilize. But she does do big things that makes in unclear who actually has more raw power.
    Gaara has lifted sand enough to crush city blocks, created massive sand tsunamis that can dwarf cliffs dozens of meters high, and held a mountain-sized meteor aloft with his sand, and as mentioned previously projected his sand fast enough to block attacks from with the fastest characters in his universe of super-humanly fast individuals.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    It's tough to say what exactly doesn't appeal to me about Naruto's fights. Well, stuff that isn't the flashbacks. That one is obvious. But even with those removed, I often find them boring and silly. It's not just power level (though I do typically enjoy lower powered fights), I've really enjoyed Terra Toppa Gurren Lagen and Kill La Kill before, and their fights are literally ridiculous. It might be length, I'm not sure what the longest fight scene I've seen is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it belonged to Naruto. It might be characters, Naruto is good enough, but I despise Sasuke because he is just awful.

    Or maybe it's just the fact that even removed, the flashbacks make the fights choppy in places where they used to be.

    I don't like Naruto fights either. They're way too drawn out, and the constant flash backs are obnoxious. It worked fine for one or two dramatic moments, but they overuse it to the point of ridiculousness.

    Actually, is that true? Toph has shattered cliffs before and apparently has a range across an entire city. I mean, Toph certainly strikes with less of force, but that's because you usually don't see her kill, she tends to just trap and immobilize. But she does do big things that makes in unclear who actually has more raw power.
    Is it true that the person who can "shatter a cliff" isn't on a power scale with someone who can catch meteors or create giant, fully animated, mountain range sized sand monsters? You can't be serious. Shattering a cliff isn't even a good feat. Avalanches can be started with incredibly small amounts of force.

    As for adding blood making it harder for Toph to bend, well that's not true. Wet mud is just as easy to bend as dirt is. A controlling spirit? Eh, maybe? Spirits are a thing in Avatar, but I don't know if Toph ever interacted with one. Does anyone know? We might actually have an easy answer to this question.
    Well, changing the composition is explicitly what makes metal bending so difficult...so yes it's relevant.

    It takes such a willful amount of disregard for the source materials to argue that Toph has anywhere near Gaara's amount of power that I don't see how there's any point in talking about it any more. The people who are going to argue in Toph's favor here are already ignoring literal mountains of evidence. Pointing out more evidence for them to ignore is just a waste of everyone's time.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-07-10 at 01:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Point 1: this actually supports me, not you. Toph has demonstrated an ability to control an entire object even though the object is not made entirely of her bending material. To that end, the fact that it isn't pure sand is irrelevant. At best, it would split into its component elements, with Gaara controlling a cloud of dried blood particles while Toph controls the sand.
    I would love to see that. Not in a way to do with death battle really, just a fight where two characters split bloodsoaked sand into seperate blood and sand and keep fighting with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Is it true that the person who can "shatter a cliff" isn't on a power scale with someone who can catch meteors or create giant, fully animated, mountain range sized sand monsters? You can't be serious. Shattering a cliff isn't even a good feat. Avalanches can be started with incredibly small amounts of force.
    Which happens to be exactly Toph's preferred style. She is a pressure point fighter, capable of beating physically vastly superior opponents through very precise application of power and better techniqe. Buuuut, yeah. I like the comparison to Bruce Lee vs. the Hulk. At some point it just does not matter how good of a fighter you are, or how clumsy the Hulk is. And Gaara is by no means a bad or clumsy fighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    ..... true. The next question becomes... was it lack of research or bias that resulted in the incorrect conclusion? Years ago, I would lean towards the former, but as the series gone on, as well as how some fights were picked initially, I'm heavily in the latter.
    How some fights are initially picked? As in which characters get paired with whom? That sort of protest is usually reserved for people crying only that their favorite character lost: “The fight was unfair, they choose someone who was way out of my guys league.”

    Also bias means many things. Bias can be unconscious or prejudicial things, like maybe the team really like certain shows or characters and want them to win.

    However, if I get your drift, it sounds like is you are saying is “the way they pair people in fights is so unfair, they must WANT certain guys to lose or win.”

    Let’s assume for the moment they do pick soft opponents specifically so that particular characters will win...obviously that’s a powerful argument that the winner is, in fact, the stronger character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    How some fights are initially picked? As in which characters get paired with whom? That sort of protest is usually reserved for people crying only that their favorite character lost: “The fight was unfair, they choose someone who was way out of my guys league.”

    Also bias means many things. Bias can be unconscious or prejudicial things, like maybe the team really like certain shows or characters and want them to win.

    However, if I get your drift, it sounds like is you are saying is “the way they pair people in fights is so unfair, they must WANT certain guys to lose or win.”

    Let’s assume for the moment they do pick soft opponents specifically so that particular characters will win...obviously that’s a powerful argument that the winner is, in fact, the stronger character.
    Fights tend to be picked from similar combatants. Sword using rpg protags so cloud and link, speedsters, so flash and quicksilver, demon sword fighting people, guts and nightmare. They try to get them in the same ballpark as well, its generally rare that the winner is obvious from the start, but it often becomes so when they break out the tale of the tape and you learn that so and so survived a black hole back in the 50s in one of his spinoff series while his opponent had a tree land on him once. The bias tends to come in when they make the judgement calls like this one, but often its clear they only make that call to try to even out the fight where its less judgement call and more "How can I boost this guy far enough to make it a fight in a way thats semi justified". Like iirc ichigo was given every boost possible combined to multiply his power levels enough that he could approach naruto and his moon buster attack surviving blah de bloo. Or as another example, link gets pretty much every awesome item in his arsenal spread across several games while cloud gets his starter gear. Its probable that with nothing but his master sword, shield, and maybe some bombs, link would have been sashimi in short order.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    The bias tends to come in when they make the judgement calls like this one, but often its clear they only make that call to try to even out the fight ... Like iirc ichigo was given every boost possible combined to multiply his power levels enough that he could approach naruto and his moon buster attack surviving...
    What you are calling “bias” looks more like they are just trying to make a fight’s outcome appear fair. They gave Ichigo every possible break explicitly in order to show its still not enough against Naruto.

    You seem to be conflating the term “bias” with the term “judgment.” You can’t do any sort of superhero battle or make claims about who would win a fight without making a whole lot of judgment calls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Is it true that the person who can "shatter a cliff" isn't on a power scale with someone who can catch meteors or create giant, fully animated, mountain range sized sand monsters? You can't be serious. Shattering a cliff isn't even a good feat. Avalanches can be started with incredibly small amounts of force.



    Well, changing the composition is explicitly what makes metal bending so difficult...so yes it's relevant.

    It takes such a willful amount of disregard for the source materials to argue that Toph has anywhere near Gaara's amount of power that I don't see how there's any point in talking about it any more. The people who are going to argue in Toph's favor here are already ignoring literal mountains of evidence. Pointing out more evidence for them to ignore is just a waste of everyone's time.
    When does Gaara catch a meteorite? Or the sand monster thing, since presumably you aren't talking about him using his demon form, since he actually got a fair bit more powerful after he lost it.


    Toph has no trouble with water infused mud, so I doubt blood infused sand would be all that difficult for her.

    I like this conversation because apparently there is a ton of stuff I missed in that final fight scene that I didn't see since I stopped early. Ditto with Toph, except I never watched that much of Avatar. Truly though, I don't actually care about this fight, and digging up more information about Naruto is painful due to those fight scenes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    When does Gaara catch a meteorite? Or the sand monster thing, since presumably you aren't talking about him using his demon form, since he actually got a fair bit more powerful after he lost it.
    I don't remember the sand monster, but the meteorite probably refers to the fight between the five Kages and Madara.

    They all get manhandled, but Gaara and Tsunade get manhandled the least, as I recall.

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    The sand monster I was referring to was his demon form. If you want to argue he was even more powerful without it, that's even more reason he should have stomped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    What you are calling “bias” looks more like they are just trying to make a fight’s outcome appear fair. They gave Ichigo every possible break explicitly in order to show its still not enough against Naruto.

    You seem to be conflating the term “bias” with the term “judgment.” You can’t do any sort of superhero battle or make claims about who would win a fight without making a whole lot of judgment calls.
    Which is just another example of lazy research on their part. They calculated Naruto's durability based on an opponent of his who cut the moon in half. Nevermind the fact that they can't possibly know how big the moon is in Naruto and just went with the size of ours, and nevermind the fact that he never hits Naruto with that attack...the moon in Naruto's world is hollow so the whole assumption is flawed anyway.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-07-11 at 01:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    When does Gaara catch a meteorite? Or the sand monster thing, since presumably you aren't talking about him using his demon form, since he actually got a fair bit more powerful after he lost it.


    Toph has no trouble with water infused mud, so I doubt blood infused sand would be all that difficult for her.

    I like this conversation because apparently there is a ton of stuff I missed in that final fight scene that I didn't see since I stopped early. Ditto with Toph, except I never watched that much of Avatar. Truly though, I don't actually care about this fight, and digging up more information about Naruto is painful due to those fight scenes.
    In the fight against madera, naruto and crew actually start doing good against him when he is messing around. Then he goes full rinnegan (you NEVER go full rinnegan) and summons a meteor large enough to wipe out the entire army. The iwakage flies up to it and tries to halt it by using a stone lightening jutsu several times, garra summons up this absolutely massive pillar of sand to engulf it and together they halt it in place. Of course then the second meteor full rinnegan (this is why you dont go that far) madera summons slams into the first and wipes out large portions of the army. Its kinda hard to attribute the feat to garra as it was a two man effort and we have no idea how much that spherical mountain weighed by the time garra was able to hold it up, but its still an impressive feat. Here you go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    The sand monster I was referring to was his demon form. If you want to argue he was even more powerful without it, that's even more reason he should have stomped.



    Which is just another example of lazy research on their part. They calculated Naruto's durability based on an opponent of his who cut the moon in half. Nevermind the fact that they can't possibly know how big the moon is in Naruto and just went with the size of ours, and nevermind the fact that he never hits Naruto with that attack...the moon in Naruto's world is hollow so the whole assumption is flawed anyway.
    Let's please not get into that hollow moon nonsense. It was bad enough in Doctor Who.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    The moon in Naruto is man-made.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The moon in Naruto is man-made.
    I'm not talking about how it's made, I'm talking about how it affects the Earth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    What you are calling “bias” looks more like they are just trying to make a fight’s outcome appear fair. They gave Ichigo every possible break explicitly in order to show its still not enough against Naruto.

    You seem to be conflating the term “bias” with the term “judgment.” You can’t do any sort of superhero battle or make claims about who would win a fight without making a whole lot of judgment calls.
    Anteros’ Response:
    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Which is just another example of lazy research on their part. They calculated Naruto's durability based on an opponent of his who cut the moon in half. Nevermind the fact that they can't possibly know how big the moon is in Naruto and just went with the size of ours, and nevermind the fact that he never hits Naruto with that attack...the moon in Naruto's world is hollow so the whole assumption is flawed anyway.
    Were you ignoring the part at the end where I said “you need to make a whole lot of judgment calls” or do you want to say making judgment calls equate to lazy research?

    They decide to scale up Ichigo only to show that Naruto is still vastly superior based on his ability to tank his opponents attacks that...have been shown to split the moon in half.

    Sure you can say the moon in Naruto doesn’t resemble our moon at all (of course then the world wouldn’t have tides or temperature control but whatever).

    The problem is: What’s the alternative? You can ignore the moon destroying feat and probably sell Naruto short and then measure Ichigo’s power much more modestly...and the outcome might not change. However you calculate these characters abilities, its all guess work using proxies anyway. They don’t have the characters in a lab. What we have is a collection of their feats, some of which look pretty impressive.

    If you are going to make physics calculations with those feats though, you are going to have to make lots of assumptions. If you want to make your calculations based on a hollow moon, you would have to figure out how to hollow out the moon, and how that would make sense (it doesn’t, a hollowed out moon by operation of gravity should collapse and become a solid moon).

    If instead, you don’t use the moon example at all as flawed, and you don’t use any example that appears “flawed” you may end up with a character without very many feats, because literally nothing these characters do with superpowers makes sense from the standpoint of real world physics.

    It’s literally impossible to do these superhero battles without a lot of guesswork, rules of thumb, and the suspect comparison to how things work in our world with our physics. If you are going to insist on perfect physical accuracy in analyzing these superpowers...You will simply have a way to complain about every call they’ve ever made in every battle that has ever been fought.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I'm not talking about how it's made, I'm talking about how it affects the Earth.
    IT doesn't.

    that's kind of the point.

    The Moon in Naruto ins't a moon and doesn't behave anything like a real moon.

    It's a man-made construct that Ninja-Jesus made to lock up the corpse of the monster that was born when his mom fused with a tree.

    Treating it like a real moon in any capacity is silly.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Is destroying the moon as a demonstration of power just a thing in Anime? What do the Japanese have against the moon? Is this secretly a message of intent?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Is destroying the moon as a demonstration of power just a thing in Anime? What do the Japanese have against the moon? Is this secretly a message of intent?
    No.

    It just happens the same reason anything like that happens in fictional media with lots of fighting.

    because of rule of cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Anteros’ Response:


    Were you ignoring the part at the end where I said “you need to make a whole lot of judgment calls” or do you want to say making judgment calls equate to lazy research?

    They decide to scale up Ichigo only to show that Naruto is still vastly superior based on his ability to tank his opponents attacks that...have been shown to split the moon in half.

    Sure you can say the moon in Naruto doesn’t resemble our moon at all (of course then the world wouldn’t have tides or temperature control but whatever).

    The problem is: What’s the alternative? You can ignore the moon destroying feat and probably sell Naruto short and then measure Ichigo’s power much more modestly...and the outcome might not change. However you calculate these characters abilities, its all guess work using proxies anyway. They don’t have the characters in a lab. What we have is a collection of their feats, some of which look pretty impressive.

    If you are going to make physics calculations with those feats though, you are going to have to make lots of assumptions. If you want to make your calculations based on a hollow moon, you would have to figure out how to hollow out the moon, and how that would make sense (it doesn’t, a hollowed out moon by operation of gravity should collapse and become a solid moon).

    If instead, you don’t use the moon example at all as flawed, and you don’t use any example that appears “flawed” you may end up with a character without very many feats, because literally nothing these characters do with superpowers makes sense from the standpoint of real world physics.

    It’s literally impossible to do these superhero battles without a lot of guesswork, rules of thumb, and the suspect comparison to how things work in our world with our physics. If you are going to insist on perfect physical accuracy in analyzing these superpowers...You will simply have a way to complain about every call they’ve ever made in every battle that has ever been fought.
    You do have to make assumptions at some points. You don't have to make assumptions that are literally contradicted by the source material like "it would take this much force to destroy the moon" when the moon in question is explicitly completely different. Especially when that one feat is so entirely out of line with everything else we've seen of the character's durability. You're saying that they "scaled Ichigo up" to give him a chance. All that means is that they inaccurately depicted both characters.

    When Roshi blows up the moon in Dragonball I'm willing to handwave it as being comparable to ours. In Naruto they literally tell you it's an entirely different thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I'm not talking about how it's made, I'm talking about how it affects the Earth.
    Look, I didn't make the stupid setting. If I had, it would probably be more internally consistent but waaay less popular and you'd have never heard of it.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-07-11 at 12:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    You do have to make assumptions at some points. You don't have to make assumptions that are literally contradicted by the source material like "it would take this much force to destroy the moon" when the moon in question is explicitly completely different. Especially when that one feat is so entirely out of line with everything else we've seen of the character's durability. You're saying that they "scaled Ichigo up" to give him a chance. All that means is that they inaccurately depicted both characters.

    When Roshi blows up the moon in Dragonball I'm willing to handwave it as being comparable to ours. In Naruto they literally tell you it's an entirely different thing.
    Fair point. Also note, in dragonball's universe blowing up the moon puts Muten Roshi in the little league. He didn't even have to try very hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    It's simple, really...

    Rocks are the easiest thing to break in fiction. Any half-decent fighter in any media that includes even the smallest of super-powers can break concrete like it's styrofoam.

    And the Moon is just a big rock.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    It's simple, really...

    Rocks are the easiest thing to break in fiction. Any half-decent fighter in any media that includes even the smallest of super-powers can break concrete like it's styrofoam.

    And the Moon is just a big rock.
    Rocks, concrete, bricks, big machinery, basically anything inanimate. Of course, other than breaking things, pushing things, occasionally lifting things or even disintegrating things, we got no way to measure the strength of these characters.

    You can make an argument that these characters’ attributes are actually immeasurable or that any method you use to measure them is fundamentally flawed, but then there’s really no point to either Deathbattle or discussing these fights at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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