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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by McNum View Post
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    The biggest issue I can see for Ghost Rider is that Lobo... can't really die. He did once, went to Hell, trashed the place, got kicked out. And, well, you can imagine why Heaven isn't an option for the guy.

    So even if Ghost Rider can take him down, he also needs to make sure he doesn't just come back.

    I do see this battle kind of in the Raiden vs. Wolverine kind of fight. Ghost Rider will be on the offense for most of the match. But the big question is if he has anything that can take Lobo down at all. Lobo can take most any hit, and he's likely immune to the Penance Stare since that requires you to feel guilt for your kills. That's why it worked on Galactus, he doesn't enjoy devouring worlds, but he has to.

    Lobo can wear Ghost Rider down over time. Ghost Rider needs to win decisively before that. It's going to be an interesting one, I think.
    Ah, that's the fight then. Death Battle loves those sorts of "twists" and having Ghost Rider drag him to hell and acting like it's the conclusion only to having him escape feels like the kind of thing they'd animate.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    BEing immune to th ePenance Stare(which, incidentally, has onl happened in storylines where the author doesn't know how it's supposed to work, but whatevs) doesn't make you immune to having your soul directly incinerated with Hellfire.

    Hellfire at full blast burns both physical and spiritual matter with an intensity hotter than anything that is physically possible via non-mystical means(Hellfire has canonically burned the Human Torch's body.)
    Most Ghost Riders will their Hellfire to burn 'cold' so that it doesn't harm the physical body and only burns the evil parts of a soul, but if he's going for the Kill there comes the point where he's just gonna go for full matter-obliterating and soul-destroying intensity.

    The Spirits of Vengence are theoretically omnipotent within the specific parameters they occupy--Robbie Reyes is an amateur Ghost Rider but he's explicitly the most powerful of the current run of the Avengers(the most powerful incarnation of the Avengers, BTW,) by a very wide margin.

    It basically comes down to if Ghost Rider can hit Lobo with a big blast of Hellfire and then sustain the attack long enough to obliterate him.

    Which will be no, becuase this is Death Battle and Lobo is a Detective Comcis property.
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    Considering Lobo has taken on hell and won, I don't think Hellfire would be all that big of a deal for him. Lobo is pretty much immortal, on multiple levels.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
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    Considering Lobo has taken on hell and won, I don't think Hellfire would be all that big of a deal for him. Lobo is pretty much immortal, on multiple levels.
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    That assumes that DC Hell and MArvel Hell are the same.

    From what I can put together, Hellfire in DC is just regular fire conjured with Demonic Magic. It can burn hot. Hot enough that Etrigan's fire-breath can even hurt superman(though that might be from it being magic, which Superman has no special resistance to), but it doesn't seem to have the same soul buring properties of Marvel's Hellfire.

    Which makes sense. While having more souls in your hell-realm is considered prestigious among Marvel's Demons, in DC Hell human souls are literally both the primary currency and the primary material with which goods are manufactured. I don't see Hell's economy functioning very well if a common substance/reaction/demonic power could be used to destroy it utterly.

    Hell, it seems, is the one place where the Marvel Universe's power level is higher than the DC Universes.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Thinking about Aang vs Ed...

    While it wouldn't have changed the match's final result, we know for a fact that lightning created by bending is way slower than normal lightning... Because we can compare its speed to that of other things that move at the same time. e.g.: In that very same shot, we can compare the lightning speed to Aang's falling speed. Not to mention, of course, things like Zuko jumping inf front of Azula's lightning to protect Katara.

    And let's not forget that while a lightning's return stroke can indeed move at about 1/3 the speed of light, the step leader (i.e.: the initial discharge that goes from the cloud to the ground, which I'd assume is the part you gotta dodge before it's too late) only moves at about 10% that speed... i.e.: Around 1/30 the speed of light (still pretty damn fast, of course).

    So... Yeah... While I agree with the result, the "Aang can react to/move faster than lightning" is complete BS... As anyone with half a brain cell can tell.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    So, the battle of the badass bikers begins.
    I have very limited knowledge on both combatants, so I would appreciate fixing any errors I may write here.

    From what I know of Lobo, the Main Man's practically unkillable. Seriously, he has a regen factor on par with Wolverine (they even battled in one crossover event, though Wolvy won that battle).
    Other than that, he's extremely experienced, being a bounty hunter.

    Another question: How does the Penance Stare work? Does it work on immoral beings? I think I remember some scene in the hilarious live-action movies where Blaze tries the Stare on the Devil's son, and gets laughed at. I'm pretty sure Lobo is as immoral as they come and has never felt a smidge of regret in his life. The guy wiped out his entire species, I believe.

    What were Ghost Rider's major victories and failures?

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    While it wouldn't have changed the match's final result, we know for a fact that lightning created by bending is way slower than normal lightning... Because we can compare its speed to that of other things that move at the same time. e.g.: In that very same shot, we can compare the lightning speed to Aang's falling speed. Not to mention, of course, things like Zuko jumping inf front of Azula's lightning to protect Katara.
    It’s not that far-fetched to say lightning moves at our lightning speed. We’ve all agreed that, unless given reason to think otherwise, stuff in the fictional universe work the way it does in ours. Animation, because of the limitations and techniques of the medium, is going to depict stuff as moving in increments of 1/24 of a second.

    This will show some silly results, like how Star Wars blaster bolts always take 3/24s of a second to reach its target regardless of the distance (because every shot will be shown at the origin, target, and one intermediate). Jedi reflexes are supposed to be so fast only because they see into the future, but if blasters were that slow they wouldn’t need such a fanciful explanation.

    If lightning really moved as slow as it did, in some cases it moves slower than the fireballs its supposedly meant to be a superior replacement for.

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    Note too, lightning doesn’t even move at a constant speed in the animation. They are especially generous at giving multiple panels for lightning bolts and showing Aang as doing gymnastics around them during the Ozai fight. Most other fights it was not so generous. That could mean Aang really is that much faster than everyone else, or that they just didn’t care to depict lightning accurately or both.

    Since this is a Deathbattle, its also a question of what Ed’s reaction time is. He dodges a bullet, but are we able to derive that he moved in bullet time?

    Is not the simplest explanation that, forget the illustrations, lightning and bullets move at their real world speeds and both of these characters simply anticipated the attacks and moved within normal human speeds?
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKarious View Post
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    So, the battle of the badass bikers begins.
    I have very limited knowledge on both combatants, so I would appreciate fixing any errors I may write here.

    From what I know of Lobo, the Main Man's practically unkillable. Seriously, he has a regen factor on par with Wolverine (they even battled in one crossover event, though Wolvy won that battle).
    Other than that, he's extremely experienced, being a bounty hunter.

    Another question: How does the Penance Stare work? Does it work on immoral beings? I think I remember some scene in the hilarious live-action movies where Blaze tries the Stare on the Devil's son, and gets laughed at. I'm pretty sure Lobo is as immoral as they come and has never felt a smidge of regret in his life. The guy wiped out his entire species, I believe.

    What were Ghost Rider's major victories and failures?

    Most major victory was likely galactus, im not sure where he ranks on the power scale compared to various versions of the devil ghost riders have fought at one point or another so i will go with that. As for penance stare, I THINK the way it acts is it makes you feel all the pain and suffering you have ever caused, so while the son of the devil being a souless monster may not be effected, lobo has a soul, so he probably would to one extent or another. As for regen, hellfire can burn not just bodies, but souls. So it seems to me that it would suffice for the "can he kill lobo" question. Now will he be strong enough, fast enough, tough enough to land a killing blow? That I cant say. While lobo has traded blows with superman, one of supermans biggest traits is holding back as much of his strength as possible to avoid atomizing anything he touches. So we cant just go "Omg, superman is infinite strong, therefore lobo is infinite tough"
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by SKarious View Post
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    So, the battle of the badass bikers begins.
    I have very limited knowledge on both combatants, so I would appreciate fixing any errors I may write here.

    From what I know of Lobo, the Main Man's practically unkillable. Seriously, he has a regen factor on par with Wolverine (they even battled in one crossover event, though Wolvy won that battle).
    Other than that, he's extremely experienced, being a bounty hunter.

    Another question: How does the Penance Stare work? Does it work on immoral beings? I think I remember some scene in the hilarious live-action movies where Blaze tries the Stare on the Devil's son, and gets laughed at. I'm pretty sure Lobo is as immoral as they come and has never felt a smidge of regret in his life. The guy wiped out his entire species, I believe.

    What were Ghost Rider's major victories and failures?

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    it didn't work on Blackheart because Blackheart didn't have a soul--note at the end of the movie when he absorbed a hundred wicked souls that it was extra effective.

    The penance stare works by forcing you to experience all the sins you've commited--which is to say, all of the pain be it physical, emotional, or spiritual that you have ever deliberately inflicted or that had been inflicted as a consequence of your own selfish or malicious actions while at the same time burning that sensation into your very soul so that you don't forget it.

    It's called the Penance Stare becuase it's meant to force you to repent.

    There are only a handful of defenses.

    1: Not having a soul to burn in the first place.

    2: Being utterly incapable of remorse, as a tool meant to force penance, it just flat out doesn't work if penance is impossible. It's not enough to be a mere sociopath. You have to be gleeful in your deliberate non-repentance.

    3: If you've already repented for your sins, the stare is significantly less effective: You see this in the current Avengers run in the comics: A Hellhound working for a vampiric Soldier uses a spell to take control of Robbie Reyes and force him to fight the other Avengers: Captain Marvel gets stared and feels the pain she inflicted on the innocent as a result of her irrational behavior leading up to and during Civil War II, but she already felt bad about that so really all it did was piss her off.

    If Lobo is genuinely incapable of remorse, the stare won't work...

    But Ghost Rider could just use Hellfire to obliterate his soul the hard way.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2019-07-25 at 12:13 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

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    Lobo pretty much seems like the poster child for a character with a gleeful lack of remorse.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Is not the simplest explanation that, forget the illustrations, lightning and bullets move at their real world speeds and both of these characters simply anticipated the attacks and moved within normal human speeds?
    Of course. I said that myself... But this is DB. Being pseudo-scientific is all they do.

    (Besides, even if the lightning is limited by the frame rate, so is Aang's fall! So it still counts! )

    But, yeah, even ignoring that... Aang is never seen moving at anything even close to the speed required to the dodge actual lightning. During the siege of Ba Sing Sei (or whatever it's called), we see him get as fast as he can with his little airball to get as high as possible before falling and pushing a pointy rock into a giant train. That speed is probably close to the fastest he can move... And I highly doubt it's even close to breaking the speed of sound.

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    In physical attributes, Ed probably got him beat... But still, it wouldn't matter. Avatar state is Avatar state, after all...
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
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    Lobo pretty much seems like the poster child for a character with a gleeful lack of remorse.
    The thing is, he isnt totally amoral, he has fought for good as well as evil in his career,
    Lobo has built his reputation as one of the most fearsome bounty hunters in the known universe, but deep down he does have a heart of gold, even if he tends to care a lot more about his beloved space dolphins than he does actual people.
    I think that it would work on him to at least some extent.
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    it didn't work on Blackheart because Blackheart didn't have a soul--note at the end of the movie when he absorbed a hundred wicked souls that it was extra effective.

    The penance stare works by forcing you to experience all the sins you've commited--which is to say, all of the pain be it physical, emotional, or spiritual that you have ever deliberately inflicted or that had been inflicted as a consequence of your own selfish or malicious actions while at the same time burning that sensation into your very soul so that you don't forget it.

    It's called the Penance Stare becuase it's meant to force you to repent.

    There are only a handful of defenses.

    1: Not having a soul to burn in the first place.

    2: Being utterly incapable of remorse, as a tool meant to force penance, it just flat out doesn't work if penance is impossible. It's not enough to be a mere sociopath. You have to be gleeful in your deliberate non-repentance.

    3: If you've already repented for your sins, the stare is significantly less effective: You see this in the current Avengers run in the comics: A Hellhound working for a vampiric Soldier uses a spell to take control of Robbie Reyes and force him to fight the other Avengers: Captain Marvel gets stared and feels the pain she inflicted on the innocent as a result of her irrational behavior leading up to and during Civil War II, but she already felt bad about that so really all it did was piss her off.

    If Lobo is genuinely incapable of remorse, the stare won't work...

    But Ghost Rider could just use Hellfire to obliterate his soul the hard way.
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    I'll also add that 2 and 3 were basically one-shot things made up on the spot as an easy twist... But, unfortunately, that kind of nonsense still counts for DB.

    The main thing is that while insanely difficult, it's possible to kill Lobo. His "can regenerate from a single cell" shtick is super inconsistent even by comics standards. He's being killed by decapitation and, IIRC, by being crushed to death by heavy objects (and multiple times by incineration, which shouldn't be a problem for GR). GR, OTOH, when fully using Azazel's powers, can even beat World-breaker Hulk... Not only that, but even dying doesn't take GR's powers away. Past GR not only keep their power in hell/heaven, but are even capable of resurrecting themselves by simply escaping back the the material plane (the reason GRs don't leave heaven is because, well... It's heaven. Who would you want to leave?).

    Lobo has strength comparable to Superman... Whether that's enough to kill GR is debatable, however, as generally speaking, only great mystical/occult powers seem able to cause any lasting damage to a GR using anything more than whatever tiny percentage of power GRs can are usually able to wield.
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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    I just wanted to include the strength comparable with superman thing is really dicey. As I said earlier, superman is well known for restricting his power according to whoever he is fighting. After all, he could easily reduce to a red mist anyone below planet breaking levels without putting a real effort into it. So we cant just leave it at "traded blows with superman" Because BANE once traded blows with superman. It didnt last long, but bane also didnt explode into bloody Venom soaked mist either so clearly superman was either holding back or bane has infinite durability. We have to see a physical attack he lands on something and what it does. Like, can he punch over a building? A mountain? Did he hip check a moon to crash into a planet?
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    I don't know where you got that quote that Lobo has a heart of gold but I really don't think it's accurate. He canonically genocided his own race. His last appearance was him trying to murder his own daughter for basically no reason. He's fought for the good guys sometimes, but that's just because he's an equal-opportunity monster.

    Sure, comics are inconsistent and I'm sure there's a Lobo story somewhere where the expresses regret...which will be enough for Death Battle's dubious standards...but it's hardly the way he's normally depicted.

    For Lobo feats...he's done more than traded blows with Supes. He's straight up beaten him to a pulp in the past...although normal depictions put Supes way higher. He's outright overpowered Supergirl and Captain Marvel in the past. He once crushed an entire city into the size of an almond and ate it (don't ask me how that works, I don't write comics).

    In physicals I think he's far above Ghost Rider. I think it comes down to if the Penance Stare works. Otherwise I don't know if Ghost Rider has anything that would even damage Lobo, and I doubt he could land it if he did.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-07-25 at 05:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    I don't know much about Lobo. Supposedly he blew up his own home planet from what I know, but I'm not sure if that's "punched planet to death", "set off some doomsday weapon", something else, or just a flat lie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Sure, comics are inconsistent and I'm sure there's a Lobo story somewhere where the expresses regret...which will be enough for Death Battle's dubious standards...but it's hardly the way he's normally depicted.
    I mainly question whether standards for putting comicbook characters from different franchises in a fight to the death can be anything other than dubious. The ideas people have suggested on this forum as better alternatives usually boils down to

    Theory 1 "my reading is the obvious one,"

    Theory 2 "go by the typical* portrayal" (*the typical portrayal is undefined by it likely comes down to Theory 1)

    Theory 3 "follow my proposed rule" (which is really screwy)

    Theory 4 do what everyone else does and have an internet popularity contest (in which case there would be no point to the show)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I don't know where you got that quote that Lobo has a heart of gold but I really don't think it's accurate. He canonically genocided his own race. His last appearance was him trying to murder his own daughter for basically no reason. He's fought for the good guys sometimes, but that's just because he's an equal-opportunity monster.

    Sure, comics are inconsistent and I'm sure there's a Lobo story somewhere where the expresses regret...which will be enough for Death Battle's dubious standards...but it's hardly the way he's normally depicted.

    For Lobo feats...he's done more than traded blows with Supes. He's straight up beaten him to a pulp in the past...although normal depictions put Supes way higher. He's outright overpowered Supergirl and Captain Marvel in the past. He once crushed an entire city into the size of an almond and ate it (don't ask me how that works, I don't write comics).

    In physicals I think he's far above Ghost Rider. I think it comes down to if the Penance Stare works. Otherwise I don't know if Ghost Rider has anything that would even damage Lobo, and I doubt he could land it if he did.
    I pulled up a link to the space dolphin thing. Here. Oh and as someone asked, he poisoned his planet, he didnt punch the world to pieces or gun down the population, he basically unleashed a plague that killed everything but him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I mainly question whether standards for putting comicbook characters from different franchises in a fight to the death can be anything other than dubious. The ideas people have suggested on this forum as better alternatives usually boils down to

    Theory 1 "my reading is the obvious one,"

    Theory 2 "go by the typical* portrayal" (*the typical portrayal is undefined by it likely comes down to Theory 1)

    Theory 3 "follow my proposed rule" (which is really screwy)

    Theory 4 do what everyone else does and have an internet popularity contest (in which case there would be no point to the show)
    Or the most common theory I've actually seen which is "go with the way the character is always portrayed and dismiss obviously ridiculous outliers that clearly contradict everything else we've ever seen the character do.

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    Frankly, the only way you could really get a "fair" evaluation is by using a jury system. You can't use one set of standards and have it work equally well for every conceivable fight. Rather, you have to trust in human judgment and common sense to a degree. Really, the fairest form of this would be if you had two hosts who presented their arguments for the strengths/weaknesses of each combatant, and then had a panel of judges vote based on that. Heck, you could even have a gradual reveal of the votes play out during an animatic of the fight.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Or the most common theory I've actually seen which is "go with the way the character is always portrayed and dismiss obviously ridiculous outliers that clearly contradict everything else we've ever seen the character do.
    “The way the character is always portrayed” is clearly clearly Theory 2 “the typical portrayal” on steroids.

    In other words after five iterations of the thread, some are willfully ignoring that these characters have been treated differently by their different authors, have varying capabilities from situation to situation, and are depicted differently in different media, including comics, cartoons, video games, live action movies and so on.

    Which comes down to theory 1, everyone should view the character my way.

    There is obviously no other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    Frankly, the only way you could really get a "fair" evaluation is by using a jury system. You can't use one set of standards and have it work equally well for every conceivable fight. Rather, you have to trust in human judgment and common sense to a degree. Really, the fairest form of this would be if you had two hosts who presented their arguments for the strengths/weaknesses of each combatant, and then had a panel of judges vote based on that. Heck, you could even have a gradual reveal of the votes play out during an animatic of the fight.
    The very opposite extreme...the popularity contest, here in the form of a picking out a jury to decide after having two hosts present a case.

    Your rationale is. There is no proper standards, and so no way to justify a decision based on analysis, so the only way is to have it decided by a vote.

    DB actually does this weekly on the DB Cast and has started allowing popular voting on DBX. Resulting in Gohan beating Superboy in the recent DBX (over Ben’s objections).

    I’m not actually sure how they open the voting and whether it matters how the hosts argue it on the DB Cast (usually the DB crew and popular polll agree but not always and I’m not sure if vote close or opens prior to the live stream).

    The jury system, and the notion of having each side arguing their case before them, invokes the English court system (a panel of judges could be something else). That suggests having rules for evidence, a structured trial, and prior to that, a process of selecting the jury and ensuring they are not biased or unduly influenced by external factors. Typically, the jury has to come to a unanimous decision, a simple majority vote means the jury doesn’t actually have to try to come to any sort of consensus and dissect the evidence.

    Of course, in the real world, there is a process of appeals, and lawyers who argue badly can be disbarred, sanctioned, or sued (and sometimes a new trial granted). Also, there is a presumption of an actual reality on which to base decisions off of, and an actual set of laws and case precedent that limit a juries decision (or judges) to simply the facts that are disputable and prevent things like a murder conviction where the victim is still walking around. This is supposed to lead to a system where juries accurately come to reliable and fair decisions.

    Since you have stated there can be no rules and no basis in reality, a “jury” is basically just a fancy way of doing a poll. Its a poll within a show format where the show runners self selects a small penal each show to decide the outcome the way a bunch of reality TV shows do it now.

    I fail to see how this is a “fair” way of picking winners, and I doubt it would produce results anymore accurate to what we have, a group of guys who do the same show every few weeks and pick the winner on their own analysis.

    On the other hand we’ve just had two people put in for saying DB is wrong for precisely opposite reasons. One says the characters abilities are “always” obvious. The other that its so unclear the only way to do it is by a vote.

    After five threads, we are doing well at figuring this thing out.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2019-07-27 at 05:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Ok then how would you do it, reddish? you have lots of criticism, tell us your own ideas and point of view of how to do it if you have such a strong informed opinion on taking apart other ways of doing it.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Spoiler: Next time
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    A big problem with Ghost Rider is that a lot of Writers flat out don't understand how the Penance Stare works. The most apt comparison is the Empathy gun from Hitchikers guide to the galaxy. The stare makes you feel what your victims felt from their point of view. It doesn't matter if you've made peace with it or if you normally lack empathy. Because it procs off of what your victim felt not your own capacity to feel.

    Also a lot of this is going to depend on Which Ghost Rider they use. I'd say the best would be Noble Kale.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Ok then how would you do it, reddish? you have lots of criticism, tell us your own ideas and point of view of how to do it if you have such a strong informed opinion on taking apart other ways of doing it.
    I'm not suggesting another way of doing it. I'm saying Deathbattle is absolutely fine for doing what they do, how they do it. Regardless of whether they get some matches wrong or not.

    Those that think the answer is always obvious, are just inserting their own biases (if not gaslighting). The other systems suggested have largely suggested rules that are manifestly unworkable, or just go back to some form of the internet popularity contest.

    I'd be perfectly for a show that brought on a bunch of guests to decide which character would win a versus after hearing from representatives of both sides, with accompanying video clips and images of course. It would be quite a different show, without the fully-animated fight that people often go to Deathbattle for, and each party would be contesting each other's analysis of the characters, rather than getting an objective analysis that purports to conclusively lay out the characters "weapon, armor and skills."

    However, if I were going for the most irrefutable analysis, I'd probably use the wiki, open-source coding model and get as many people to contribute analysis as possible, forming the rules through collaboration and consensus. It'd be more than mere voting, it'd be a community of actively participants thinking about how best to evaluate the characters and then pit these characters against each other.

    However, that's not a webshow format at all, but a wiki collaboration format. Also, given how collaborative and production the discussion has been on here, I'm not sure we'll get anywhere.

    Oh here's a Fanon wiki for deathbattles in precisely the format I suggested. This one imagines who will win in the ultimate fight to the finish by DC's and Marvel's god-stand ins: The Presence vs. The One Above All.

    Looks promising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Spoiler: Next time
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    A big problem with Ghost Rider is that a lot of Writers flat out don't understand how the Penance Stare works. The most apt comparison is the Empathy gun from Hitchikers guide to the galaxy. The stare makes you feel what your victims felt from their point of view. It doesn't matter if you've made peace with it or if you normally lack empathy. Because it procs off of what your victim felt not your own capacity to feel.

    Also a lot of this is going to depend on Which Ghost Rider they use. I'd say the best would be Noble Kale.
    Spoiler
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    If "a lot of writers" (by which I take it to mean the official writers of the character) don't "understand" the character and as a result the character's abilities radically change...are we supposed to just dismiss those canonical uses of the power and what the character said or did?

    The comics or other material can always explicitly disavow what an earlier comic said happened and put in its own definition. In the absence of that, you are overruling the official editors, publisher, writer, and the character itself to put in your own interpretation.

    Also, honest question, how is a being itself incapable of feeling, supposed to feel its victim's feeling?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Erm. A jury is hardly the same as a popular poll. A jury is A: a selected panel gathered for that purpose, B: a deliberately smaller group than a popular vote. In this case, it makes the most sense to curate the people who are listening to the case and making a judgment.

    I also never said there could be no rules, but rather that there's no single standard that fits every argument, which means you need to find a way to apply the rules of common sense. Which is the point of a jury.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    I'm not suggesting another way of doing it. I'm saying Deathbattle is absolutely fine for doing what they do, how they do it. Regardless of whether they get some matches wrong or not.
    While the point of the thread, that is missing the point of the current discussion I think. I think we can deviate a little from pure DB related things here until we decide to get back to the matter of Death Battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    Erm. A jury is hardly the same as a popular poll. A jury is A: a selected panel gathered for that purpose, B: a deliberately smaller group than a popular vote. In this case, it makes the most sense to curate the people who are listening to the case and making a judgment.

    I also never said there could be no rules, but rather that there's no single standard that fits every argument, which means you need to find a way to apply the rules of common sense. Which is the point of a jury.
    To make it even more unbiased, perhaps the people assessing how powerful a character is, shouldn't be the people arguing whether they'd win. like the assessors shouldn't be the advocates. the problem with that is I don't know how you could find someone unbiased in assessing a character, because the very act of viewing a character is apart of the entertainment of the character.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    I also never said there could be no rules, but rather that there's no single standard that fits every argument, which means you need to find a way to apply the rules of common sense. Which is the point of a jury.
    How do you apply the rules of common sense, if these characters, by their nature, do things quite out of line with anything that is within common experience?

    For example, the Flash is said to be able to react to phenomena at reaction times that only theoretical mathematicians, physicists and other people that work very small numbers would know by name. The Flash is also able to go many times light speed. He is able to perceive sight and sound at those speeds and function normally in a world where everything is pretty much frozen. How then, do we explain the fact that a guy with an ordinary boomerang, a guy with a fancy gun, and other ordinary humans have regularly gotten the better of him with traps and other phenomena.

    The answer to questions like these are the key to telling us how Flash would preform in a Deathbattle. If you put him up against someone like, say Black Panther (who beat Batman, who beat the Flash), or say someone like Doctor Strange, the Flash may or may not win depending on how you interpret how he uses that speed in combat.

    The Flash is hardly a special case. Characters (including both participants in the latest DB) are depicted as being regular humans in most ways, but it turns out they have truly absurd durability when you look at the hits they have tanked.What do we do if say Goku were to face, say Naruto, would Naruto get the jump on him (because Goku is so easy to surprise), or not, because Naruto doesn't actually use surprise tactics. Also, if so could Naruto score a killing blow? Perhaps someone who was more ninja like (I'm drawing a blank on Naruto characters) could? Or could they, because Goku has at various times seemed to be truly immune to attacks below DBZ planet-busting absurdity level, and at other times he gets run through by a laser.

    Also, is plot armor in effect for some characters? If so, does the versus match remove it? Does what other's have done or have had done to them within the character's franchise serve as an example of what the character can do? If so when?

    Common sense tends to go awry in these cases, and to be very vulnerable to how a question is framed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Most of the Sharingan users could probably beat Goku (particularly Itachi and super especially Shisui); guy's an absolute chump when it comes to fighting illusions, especially where his go to trick of "sense energy to find the real one" doesn't work on Genjutsu, since in D&D terms they're Phantasms, not Glamers or Patterns.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-07-28 at 02:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Most of the Sharingan users could probably beat Goku (particularly Itachi and super especially Shisui); guy's an absolute chump when it comes to fighting illusions, especially where his go to trick of "sense energy to find the real one" doesn't work on Genjutsu, since in D&D terms they're Phantasms, not Glamers or Patterns.
    hm, considering that I play Skyrim with mods that allow me to play a Kamehameha spell and all the Sharigan powers, I can say that the Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are more consistently useful abilities than the Kamehameha, because Tsukuyomi is essentially a long paralyze spell where I can then easily kill the foe with a sword or something, and the Amaterasu just instantly sets something I target on black fire but the Kamehameha spell has a long charge up, drains mana fast and is a bit hard to aim even though its great for killing dragons when I can fire it off, the skyrim Amaterasu can do that as well without making me stand in place and the Tsukuyomi can be applied to far more foes.

    often times, its simply not practical to use the skyrim Kamehameha at all.

    so by that metric, is true that Sharingans users do have the better tools for winning a fight. Hit though can stop time and that generally is an even better tool to win fights at least in skyrim. it doesn't matter how much health your foe has if you can stab them to death before time resumes, and even modded spell for pausing or slowing time for three seconds gives you a big advantage in skyrim.

    I know its ridiculous to compare the strength of these techniques based upon how a game engine does them, but thats just where my thoughts went and my observations on using the abilities in some simulated way.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Sometimes I feel like we don't have people that actually read DC comics in this thread. Can you give us a story or two we haven't mentioned where Hal does this sort of thing?
    Guess who wrote that comic where Hal Jordan out-willpowers personification of Willpower that DB used?

    Also, regarding the next time battle
    Spoiler
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    I'm actually annoyed they used Lobo. Ghost Rider vs Etrigan the Demon is one of the most popular and well-known VS Topics when it comes to Marvel vs DC. These characters have much more in common than "uses a bike". It really feels like they picked Lobo because he might lose to Penance Stare (while Etrigan is the guy who has shown he can play around DC's equivalent of God's Wrath, the Spectre), and DC had been on too much of a winning streak. I think Hal Jordan vs Ben 10 was also set up to make a DC character lose but it backfired.

    What's more is that this irritates me because after using Rider they may decide put Etrigan against Hellboy and that will be so one-sided it will be just cruel, seeing how Mingola intentionally doesn't allow his character to reach same power levels as Rider and Demon to keep him more relatable.

    This of course reaches back to my worry that Death Battle may in future pass on another well-requested and iconic Marvel vs DC matchup of X-23 vs Cassandra Cain and instead put Damian Wayne in Cass' place because he is more popular, nevermind that would be hialriously one-sided fight, basically a young adult unkillable woman delivering no-hold-barred beatdown to a 13-yo. I mean it's not like Etrigan doesn't have more media than Cass

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

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    If "a lot of writers" (by which I take it to mean the official writers of the character) don't "understand" the character and as a result the character's abilities radically change...are we supposed to just dismiss those canonical uses of the power and what the character said or did?

    The comics or other material can always explicitly disavow what an earlier comic said happened and put in its own definition. In the absence of that, you are overruling the official editors, publisher, writer, and the character itself to put in your own interpretation.

    Also, honest question, how is a being itself incapable of feeling, supposed to feel its victim's feeling?
    [/QUOTE]

    Spoiler
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    Oh I know that, it's up to the writers to decide what an ability does. It's just that it was presented as one thing and it it usually stays constant except when it's changed for someone to have Ghost Rider Job to. Every time it works it's described as you Experiencing it from their point of view. Feeling how and what they felt.

    And every time it fails, it's changed to You feeling guilt over what you've done. It's only ever treated differently from the first when a writer wants it to fail. It's always the same when it works, but always changed when it doesn't.

    As for how a character that can't feel. The Stare doesn't give you the ability to feel. It give you your victim's ability to feel. If you murder a child, you experience the murder from the point of view of being a child who is being murdered. If you shoot shoot or beat up a hardened criminal, well it's not going to be as effective against you because your victim is able to process what you did to them more easily.

    Who you harmed changes how the stare affects you.
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