The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    I feel like people are overstating Potter's reflexes here. He's a decent combatant, but he isn't going to dodge a bullet, and even if he is theoretically aware of what guns are and what they can do, he doesn't have an actual practical experience in a gunfight, whereas Dresden has lots of experience fighting other wizards shooting bad spells at him.

    I would also suggest that Dresden's defenses are more powerful than Potter's. When he creates a shield, he creates a literal multi-spectrum barrier. For all intents and purposes, he's holding a wall in front of him. I don't know that it would block the killing curse, but it would almost certainly deflect anything short of that.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Harry Dresden Vs. John Constantine?

    *looks up Constantine* I'm comparing the two....and while Harry is the one thats more optimized for a straight up fight, with his blasting magic, better physical fitness, the Winter Knight mantle, and so on, Constantine seems to have a bunch of hax tricks and this luck ability and such that I'm not sure
    what the true implications of are, but its DC so I'm sure its hax because he lives in the same universe as freaking Superman and Dream of the Endless. so I'm sure that they'd give the win to Constantine, its the only one I'm vaguely interested in seeing, if only to get more people hearing about Harry Dresden, even if he loses.

    but then again DB is all about those straight up fights, and Constantine seems to be more of a con-artist planning type who tries to avoid fights as much as possible so Harry might win if only because Constantine would be trying to play the wrong game or at least playing with the wrong tools
    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Dresden has done some extremely potent things and may tend towards viewing things that are extraordinarily destructive...but Constantine may just be another example that the DC is full of characters that are just nuts on the power scale...because he fought some of them and won.
    One of the things to remember about John is that he will have much fewer feats that are impressive due to scaling with the rest of DC Universe since he for most of his career kept to his corner in Vertigo. And I believe that Harry may have an advantage due to the fact John preffers trickery and hax over outright combat prowess, the question is merely if he can power through whatever John manages to cook for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    Ayyyy Vinland Saga representation! Although I'm pretty sure Thorkell is an unfair match for anyone resembling a historical-level Viking, like. The dude slices through soldiers like a knife through hot, gory butter.
    That works thematically pretty well, but as a battle would be kind of one-sided for Hit-Girl. Like, that battle should go "Hit-Girl pulls out an assault rifle, pulls trigger, blood splatter, The End".
    Heh, maybe Arya vs Thorfinn was a better idea, but I did not think of it before now
    Would probably need a better opponnent for Thorkell as well, any suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    I was playing through Symphony of the Night recently and, unbidden, the thought I had was Alucard vs. Morbius. Since apparently the Morbius' movie is next year and the whole SEO synergy thing. Though now Blade's going to be a thing again too, so, either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I KNEW IT! I freaking knew it, stupid DC and their ridiculous cosmology. what the heck even is this cosmology, theres like 50 worlds here and there, eight planes above that, something about this rainbow being a membrane and then The Source and Destiny of the Endless, and then I read how people actually try to explain this and its all 5th dimensional this and that, endless dimensions, megaverses,dark megaverses, infinite multiverses in an omniverse, something about hypertime, limbo, monitor sphere, and so on.

    its kind of a problem when your cosmology seems to resemble a vast excuse to come up with as many different synonyms for parallel universes as possible on the low level and an excuse to break the fourth wall and be meta on the higher level. how many godlike beings do you really need? its like some elaborate set up so someone can make anything they can imagine happen as long as they mutter the right cosmobabble.

    and its not even consistent, so much of it is illogical and subject to change and expansion. the DC Universe is a nonsense fractal.
    Normal people reacting to DC Cosmology always bring me joy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I exaggerating a little for effect, let me have my passions.

    but I disagree on anything being more ridiculous than the DC cosmology after trying to look up things trying to explain the DC cosmology. I have not read a single setting or cosmology more nonsensical or more needlessly complex in my entire life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I'm not. the reddit topic I found discussing it said exactly that. when I say its a nonsense fractal, I do not use exaggeration. cause see, no matter how high or small you go, it doesn't make sense, and since it changes its nonsense over time, that nonsense fractal extends into the fourth dimension of time. since the medium is flat however, I'm not sure if the fractal extends to the 3rd dimension of depth though.

    therefore, the best summation of DC universe metaphysics is that its Calvinball. there is a whole bunch of complex nonsense that seems important, but in practice its Calvinball. thats why its so powerful, it literally has built itself into something that doesn't care about being consistent in the least, and made an entire cosmology to do nothing but be a constantly changing cosmobabble as to why. it makes other cosmologies look well-designed by comparison.

    Its basically the embodiment of everything that wins these things: Longevity and Flexibility. no wonder people call for consistency so much with this kind of nonsense coming from no consistency at all.
    I think in that regard DC is a lot like real-life mythologies in that it has grew from absorbing together pieces of previously unrelated tales and then try to fit them together all while growing and adding new tales to the mix at the same time.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    One of the things to remember about John is that he will have much fewer feats that are impressive due to scaling with the rest of DC Universe since he for most of his career kept to his corner in Vertigo. And I believe that Harry may have an advantage due to the fact John preffers trickery and hax over outright combat prowess, the question is merely if he can power through whatever John manages to cook for him
    The problem is that Constantine hasn't spent the entirety of his existence in a little corner of Vertigo (I question if they really stuck to keeping his limits even within Hellblazer). Constantine has participated in the big events and recently in Justice League Dark, where he is one of the most powerful members (again alongside Zatanna).

    Look at the members of JLD. Any one of them could straight up overpower Dresden...yet Constantine is definitely one of the leaders of that group, and not a Batman sort of leader, a leader as in he could out power and out contribute almost all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    I think in that regard DC is a lot like real-life mythologies in that it has grew from absorbing together pieces of previously unrelated tales and then try to fit them together all while growing and adding new tales to the mix at the same time.
    Its more like DC arose as a set of completely novel tales of the entirely new and modern genre of the superhero...then when they looked for inspiration for new tales they spent a weekend going through mythology, took what they wanted, mostly big names and the most recognizable objects and tropes, and left the rest behind.

    I exaggerate, but only slightly.
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    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Harry Dresden has some pretty awesome feats as well. Stuff like

    1. Pulverizing hundreds of vampires with a single spell.

    2. Dropping a car on someone.

    3. Burning multiple buildings to the ground.

    4. Launching an invincible werewolf through multiple buildings and then blinding, deafening, and hobbling it with a drop of it's blood.

    5. Commanding an army of ghosts to attack the lair of a necromancer.

    6. For physio therapy, Mab tried to assassinate him once a day until he was better. Everything from pillow over the face, to piranhas in the shower. And one ticking crocodile. Cumulating in her opening fire at a short range with an automatic shotgun while a Malk (a giant fae cat) attacked him from the side. From surprise. So yeah, reaction time wise, he outclasses Harry Potter hard.

    And that's before you get into how much he's limited by the Laws of Magic. Remove the whole Thou Shall Not Kill thing, and he can do stuff like flash freeze you with a word, crush you with his telekentic rings, invade your mind and order you to kill yourself, or summon an army of super zombies (they can tear a car apart in seconds).

    So yeah, Harry Dresden would utterly destroy Harry Potter. John Constantine is a maybe, but likely not, because DC is should be spelled BS.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    From surprise. So yeah, reaction time wise, he outclasses Harry Potter hard.
    Dunno about that, does Dresden regularly does 3D-flying at 150 mph for hours while there's even faster flying homing rocks trying to crush you and you need to spot and catch a tiny ball flying at about the same speed?

    Because Harry Potter does that kind of stuff for sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    And that's before you get into how much he's limited by the Laws of Magic. Remove the whole Thou Shall Not Kill thing, and he can do stuff like flash freeze you with a word, crush you with his telekentic rings,
    Insta-kill spells are a thing Harry Potter had to deal with since he was literally a baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    invade your mind and order you to kill yourself,
    Harry knows about magic mind control too, he's used it himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    or summon an army of super zombies (they can tear a car apart in seconds).
    Like D&D wizards, Harry Potter can just fly out of reach and laugh at any opponents that are limited to 2D movement. Dresden would have better odds of success throwing cotton candy than summoning anything that can only crawl in the dirt.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-08-06 at 12:36 AM.
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    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Dunno about that, does Dresden regularly does 3D-flying at 150 mph for hours while there's even faster flying homing rocks trying to crush you and you need to spot and catch a tiny ball flying at about the same speed?

    Because Harry Potter does that kind of stuff for sport.


    Insta-kill spells are a thing Harry Potter had to deal with since he was literally a baby.


    Harry knows about magic mind control too, he's used it himself.



    Like D&D wizards, Harry Potter can just fly out of reach and laugh at any opponents that are limited to 2D movement. Dresden would have better odds of success throwing cotton candy than summoning anything that can only crawl in the dirt.
    Does Harry Potter regularly fight vampires and fae who can outspeed any human to the point where they blur through the air as they move? because Dresden does that to SURVIVE. and thats not counting the fact that Harry Dresden has fought Naagloshi, an evil creature explicitly said to be so powerful that only Faerie Queens and gods are more powerful, and their physical speed, strength and durability is through the roof.

    No its something plot magic that only works and never again has had to deal with once while a baby cries.

    and failed. his Occlumency was never that good.

    Dresden also has power over the wind and gravity. he could simply make Potter fall to the ground hard. splat.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2019-08-06 at 02:14 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Insta-kill spells are a thing Harry Potter had to deal with since he was literally a baby.
    He is partially resistant to the insta-kill spells of one (1) specific wizard in the entirety of his setting.


    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Harry knows about magic mind control too, he's used it himself.
    He's used it, but he explicitly sucks diseased moose wang (to borrow Harry Dresden's own phrasing) at fighting against it, so that's kind of a wash. There's two entire books with subplots of him trying to learn resistance to mind reading/control and he ends that subplot just as terrible at it as when he started.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Like D&D wizards, Harry Potter can just fly out of reach and laugh at any opponents that are limited to 2D movement. Dresden would have better odds of success throwing cotton candy than summoning anything that can only crawl in the dirt.
    Potter cannot fly; Potter's broom can fly. This is an important distinction when facing an opponent who can combust matter or similarly do things to bork that means to flight.

    I like both book series' but Dresden's series is more hardcore when it comes to combat.

    It's also weird that nobody that I've seen has mentioned Potter's biggest flaw yet: he needs a wand to do magic. An object he is easily disarmed of. Dresden meanwhile needs no such accoutrements. His staff, blasting rod, and other magic items HELP, certainly, but are not a requirement.

    And all other things being equal, Harry Potter is a an athletic 18 year old that stands somewhere in the 5' 8-10" range with no particular fighting skill, while Harry Dresden is a 6' 9" behemoth of a man who is proficient at several forms of martial arts. Even discounting the Winter Mantle, a legitimate way this fight could go is Dresden disarms Potter of his wand and then proceeds to beat the everloving **** out of the poor boy with his mammoth meat hooks.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-08-06 at 02:31 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Harry Dresden has some pretty awesome feats as well. Stuff like

    1. Pulverizing hundreds of vampires with a single spell.

    2. Dropping a car on someone.

    3. Burning multiple buildings to the ground.

    4. Launching an invincible werewolf through multiple buildings and then blinding, deafening, and hobbling it with a drop of it's blood.

    5. Commanding an army of ghosts to attack the lair of a necromancer.

    6. For physio therapy, Mab tried to assassinate him once a day until he was better. Everything from pillow over the face, to piranhas in the shower. And one ticking crocodile. Cumulating in her opening fire at a short range with an automatic shotgun while a Malk (a giant fae cat) attacked him from the side. From surprise. So yeah, reaction time wise, he outclasses Harry Potter hard.

    And that's before you get into how much he's limited by the Laws of Magic. Remove the whole Thou Shall Not Kill thing, and he can do stuff like flash freeze you with a word, crush you with his telekentic rings, invade your mind and order you to kill yourself, or summon an army of super zombies (they can tear a car apart in seconds).

    So yeah, Harry Dresden would utterly destroy Harry Potter. John Constantine is a maybe, but likely not, because DC is should be spelled BS.
    Constantine isn't a maybe in any sense of the word. Dresden's feats involve tossing cars. Constantine has overpowered Superman and the Phantom Stranger. It's not even a contest. Maybe if they ever finish up Dresden's books so he can continue his power creep he'd have a small chance.

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Dunno about that, does Dresden regularly does 3D-flying at 150 mph for hours while there's even faster flying homing rocks trying to crush you and you need to spot and catch a tiny ball flying at about the same speed?

    Because Harry Potter does that kind of stuff for sport.


    Insta-kill spells are a thing Harry Potter had to deal with since he was literally a baby.


    Harry knows about magic mind control too, he's used it himself.



    Like D&D wizards, Harry Potter can just fly out of reach and laugh at any opponents that are limited to 2D movement. Dresden would have better odds of success throwing cotton candy than summoning anything that can only crawl in the dirt.
    Guess what? Bullets are still faster. By a lot. So much so that Harry's reaction time is pathetic in comparison. That's the reason the whole 'Muggle with a gun' thing happened. Because, regardless of what Rowling has or hasn't said, it's true. Bullets move so fast that by the time you could flick your wrist, you've already been shot. The human body cannot keep up with bullets. And Harry Potter has never done anything that suggests he is an exception to that.

    Against one singular opponent who had the exact weirdness to allow Harry to live. If anyone else had cast the Killing Curse at him, he would've died. Had Voldemort used any other lethal spell, he would've died. Or a knife. Or his snake. The point is, the ability to survive what is actually a really mediocre instant kill spell, from a highly specific individual, in highly specific circumstances, hardly points to his ability to survive being frozen inside out.

    He also sucks at it. Really really badly. It's a canonical weakness of his, and Dresden has actually been extensively trained in it, both on the offense and defense. To the point where he could literally eject Harry's soul from his body and wear his flesh like a suit.

    Nah, Dresden could just focus all the gravity from a couple hundred meters to Harry's skull and watch him go splat. Or you know, just shoot him. He has a gun, and is a pretty good shot. And if he really needs to, it would be pretty trival for him to steal a sniper rifle or the like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Constantine isn't a maybe in any sense of the word. Dresden's feats involve tossing cars. Constantine has overpowered Superman and the Phantom Stranger. It's not even a contest. Maybe if they ever finish up Dresden's books so he can continue his power creep he'd have a small chance.
    It's a maybe in the sense that I'm only familiar with Constantine through that one movie of his.
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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    I've read all the 80s and 90s Hellblazer comics myself, and the Constantine of that era would probably lose a fist fight to the aforementioned Harry Potter, much less a magical duel. He must have gotten some serious power creep in the 00s.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-08-06 at 03:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

    Yikes. Just read a bit about muzzle speeds.
    How DID Dresden survive that sneak attack shotgun blast?
    And, how good of a shot is he? Hitting a sationary target is one thing. Hitting a flying/teleporting one is another. (Especially if you only have one shot, because if you miss, the next step is probably "Accio gun".)
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKarious View Post
    Yikes. Just read a bit about muzzle speeds.
    How DID Dresden survive that sneak attack shotgun blast?
    And, how good of a shot is he? Hitting a sationary target is one thing. Hitting a flying/teleporting one is another. (Especially if you only have one shot, because if you miss, the next step is probably "Accio gun".)
    As soon as he saw Mab, he threw himself backwards as hard as possible and created a shield (with no talisman to aid him). Notably, at this point he has the Winter Mantle so pretty much everything about him is enhanced, even when he isn't fully drawing on it's power.


    Decent? I'd say he's at a professional level, but it's not like he's exceptional. But he has managed to hit the Erlking on horseback while he's riding a motorbike with a shotgun slug, but he admits that was a lucky shot. On the other hand, has the Accio spell ever been shown to yank something out of someone's hand?
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    I'm gonna take this opportunity to bitch about Avada Kedavra for a moment. Avada Kedavra was a stupid idea, it took the unending possibilities for Potterverse magic and what obstacles the villains could provide for the heroes and reduced them down down to basically Imperial Storm Troopers with blaster rifles, with requisite poor aim. It's also why Harry is increasingly less impressive as the story goes on, he doesn't need to learn new spells and develop as a wizard relative to the threats he faces he just needs to ****ing dodge.

    Like, you can see the potential there in the duel between Voldemort and Dumbledore - bringing statues to life, conjuring flame snakes, etc. - it's a great and super-memorable scene in both book and movie... but any dingus with a wand who's sufficient Edgelord enough can kill just about anyone not wearing a metric ton of plot armour with this one weird trick that dermatologists hate, Avada Kedavra. So, why bother with the theatrics? Other than that they're immeasurably more interesting to read about than green bolt = death, that is. They're in-universe utterly impractical when you can spam the one spell you can learn in an afternoon and win easily.

    So, that's the issue here, at least in my opinion. You can shill Harry and his capabilities to the high heavens, but he's stuck playing rocket tag with the loser Wizard Klan for most of the series when he should be becoming Dumbledore mark. II with a psycho-frame and fin funnels.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2019-08-06 at 04:33 AM.

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    The AK isnt even that impressive. There are thousands of equally deadly spells out there, some that are horrifically worse to be hit by than an instant off switch, the whole point of the unforgivables isnt what they do, its the mind set required to use them. The soul deep desire to dominate, cause agony, and kill that is required to cast them. Even after killing his godfather harry couldnt cast the pain spell on bellatrix for more than an instant of yelping. She mocks the heck out of him for that. As for harry getting less impressive, I get that but I also see why it kinda had to be that way. There is no rational explanation for why a boy of 11-17 should be capable of beating voldemort in a straight up fight. He could have had dumbles teaching him personally from day 1 to be the most badarse duelist ever and he still would have been stomped in any straight up fight because 30+ years of experience in murdering people in creative ways by a really powerful wizard will outpace 7 years of tutoring any day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    The problem is that Constantine hasn't spent the entirety of his existence in a little corner of Vertigo (I question if they really stuck to keeping his limits even within Hellblazer). Constantine has participated in the big events and recently in Justice League Dark, where he is one of the most powerful members (again alongside Zatanna).

    Look at the members of JLD. Any one of them could straight up overpower Dresden...yet Constantine is definitely one of the leaders of that group, and not a Batman sort of leader, a leader as in he could out power and out contribute almost all of them.
    Yeah, I know. But he doesn't have 40 years of scalling with rest of DC Universe, more like 20 so he isn't as bad as some characters. Mind you, he likely has some amazing feats in his Vertigo books as well but Vertigo books being Vertigo, their feats are gonna be much less punching and blasting and more towards hax.

    Its more like DC arose as a set of completely novel tales of the entirely new and modern genre of the superhero...then when they looked for inspiration for new tales they spent a weekend going through mythology, took what they wanted, mostly big names and the most recognizable objects and tropes, and left the rest behind.

    I exaggerate, but only slightly.
    With DC the thing is that it was basically a set of originally unconnected tales made by people from vastly different visions and ideas that were later merged into one world. And then it began buying off other companies that sometimes had their own sets of mythologies that might be conflicting with their own or use them to mix characters up. For example, Shazam franchise has a character Freedy Freeman, Captain Marvel Jr. He got saved after an accident when he was on a boat with his grandfather and he got transported to Rock of Eternity where he gained superpowers. From a different company, DC acquired Kid Eternity, who also got saved and gained superpowers after almost dying during an accident when he was on a boat with his grandfather. So, of course, DC made them brothers and tied Kid Eternity to Shazam mythos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    The AK isnt even that impressive. There are thousands of equally deadly spells out there, some that are horrifically worse to be hit by than an instant off switch, the whole point of the unforgivables isnt what they do, its the mind set required to use them. The soul deep desire to dominate, cause agony, and kill that is required to cast them. Even after killing his godfather harry couldnt cast the pain spell on bellatrix for more than an instant of yelping. She mocks the heck out of him for that. As for harry getting less impressive, I get that but I also see why it kinda had to be that way.
    Except the "thousands of equally deadly spells" are basically NPC magic. Ya'know, the magic in D&D and other fantasy games which definitely happens and is usually necessary to explain certain elements of the setting but you'll never find it in the actual spell list when you roll up your mage character. For Harry Potter these amazing spells definitely exists, but it's not something the books give to the protagonist or his villains so he can solve problems with them or is forced to confront them and devise solutions and thus doesn't have him exhibit creativity or depend on much beyond plot armour and pointing a stick and yelling "Expelliarmus" while trying not being hit by the green bolts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    There is no rational explanation for why a boy of 11-17 should be capable of beating voldemort in a straight up fight. He could have had dumbles teaching him personally from day 1 to be the most badarse duelist ever and he still would have been stomped in any straight up fight because 30+ years of experience in murdering people in creative ways by a really powerful wizard will outpace 7 years of tutoring any day.
    He didn't have to beat him in a duel, you don't have to make the story a Shounen battle manga or whatever. The solution to Voldemort became a lot of Macguffin hijinks with the Horcruxes and Death Hallows, it was mostly tedious to me personally and left Harry seeming pretty underwhelming as a protagonist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Except the "thousands of equally deadly spells" are basically NPC magic. Ya'know, the magic in D&D and other fantasy games which definitely happens and is usually necessary to explain certain elements of the setting but you'll never find it in the actual spell list when you roll up your mage character. For Harry Potter these amazing spells definitely exists, but it's not something the books give to the protagonist or his villains so he can solve problems with them or is forced to confront them and devise solutions and thus doesn't have him exhibit creativity or depend on much beyond plot armour and pointing a stick and yelling "Expelliarmus" while trying not being hit by the green bolts.



    He didn't have to beat him in a duel, you don't have to make the story a Shounen battle manga or whatever. The solution to Voldemort became a lot of Macguffin hijinks with the Horcruxes and Death Hallows, it was mostly tedious to me personally and left Harry seeming pretty underwhelming as a protagonist.
    That was my point. Harry CANT win the duel so rowling had to setup his victory through macguffins and plot armor twisting, not through his magical combat ability. Thats why he never grows more impressive past like, book 4 or 5 when he stopped learning or teaching magic. It would serve no real purpose to the story because it wouldnt make him more likely to survive without full body plot armor so she basically skipped that stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    Yeah, I know. But he doesn't have 40 years of scalling with rest of DC Universe, more like 20 so he isn't as bad as some characters. Mind you, he likely has some amazing feats in his Vertigo books as well but Vertigo books being Vertigo, their feats are gonna be much less punching and blasting and more towards hax.
    See my point above about blasting magic being the weakest of magics. Killing your opponent with blasting is inefficient. Itís far more efficient to directly disable your opponent, transform him, send him to hell, summon a an unbeatable demon, alter his mental state, or simply alter the world around him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    With DC the thing is that it was basically a set of originally unconnected tales made by people from vastly different visions and ideas that were later merged into one world. And then it began buying off other companies that sometimes had their own sets of mythologies that might be conflicting with their own or use them to mix characters up.
    You accurately described the growth of Detective Comics. Some of those superheroes (Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel/Shazam) were very loosely based off of Greek mythology. So wasnít DC itself (not all the time at least) that appropriated a little bit of myth for its very modern tales.

    Mythology however was raided for its shiny treasure like Lara Croft raiding an archeological site. They didnít base the characters off of mythology, they did not worry about being true to the vast canon surrounding its gods and heroes. They took a few of the most famous and recognizable, butchered a few secondary myths and left the rest while basically making up the rest of the tales out of whole cloth.
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    As for Harry vs. Harry, remember that Fiendfyre spell that Potter had to scramble away from in the last book? Absolutely floods an area with flame. I seem to recall it being characterized as one of the most powerful, difficult, and dangerous spells in the whole Potterverse.

    That's virtually Magic 101 for Dresden.
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    What about if Dresden fully powers up? One of my favorite scenes in the books is when Mab gives him the mantle and he points out all the other options he had, like the Denarian coin or the Darkhallow. He just thought her deal was the best of the bad options. But what if he did use those to fully power up; where does he stand compared to someone like Constantine then? (I'm super not familiar with his character beyond Legends of Tomorrow).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    See my point above about blasting magic being the weakest of magics. Killing your opponent with blasting is inefficient. Itís far more efficient to directly disable your opponent, transform him, send him to hell, summon a an unbeatable demon, alter his mental state, or simply alter the world around him.
    Only in a DND paradigm where the energy and time concerns of doing all these things are equal. if magic is realistic then it would take more time and energy to transform him (because that needs more knowledge of how biology works) much more energy to send him to another plane (because HOLY FRACK YOUR BREAKING SPACE TIME, THAT SHOULD NOT BE ON THE SAME ENERGY REQUIREMENT LEVEL AS A BULLET OR A GRENADE) or summoning a demon (IS ALSO BREAKING SPACE TIME WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU HOW IS THIS NOT TAKING MORE ENERGY BREAKING THE SPEED OF LIGHT THIS MAKES NO SENSE) much more finesse to alter mental states (because that requires knowledge of how brains work that even we don't have) and "altering the world around him" is very broad and while good, there is a reason why soldiers carry guns in the real world- to shoot the enemy after we throw our flashbangs.
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    I'd enjoy seeing Dresden and Constantine bargaining with the same cosmic entity in order to win a fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    As for Harry vs. Harry, remember that Fiendfyre spell that Potter had to scramble away from in the last book? Absolutely floods an area with flame. I seem to recall it being characterized as one of the most powerful, difficult, and dangerous spells in the whole Potterverse.

    That's virtually Magic 101 for Dresden.
    Thats because, iirc, it burns everything and is semi sentient. Its not a giant fireball spell, its living evil flame that burns everything at a ferocious rate far surpassing regular flames and cant be extinguished by normal means. If you lose control of it it will intentionally seek out anything living and burn it to death. Dresden magic has to work with physics, harry potter magic doesnt.

    As for dresden fully powering up, he would be a necromantic god if he got the darkhallow ritual completed. The denarian coin would give him a power boost too, but not even remotely as large. Keep in mind dresden has fought against them on several occasions and won.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    I'd enjoy seeing Dresden and Constantine bargaining with the same cosmic entity in order to win a fight.
    ....that would be Dresdens "Honest Nerd Detective" talk Vs. Constantine "Worlds Greatest Con-Man" talk. thing is Dresden was trying to lie, he'd be beat, but he doesn't do that, so the strategies would be completely different. because Dresden deals honestly with the entities he trucks with and they can count on him to follow through and this builds a relationship, while Constantine is all about trickery. so it'd all come down to whether the entity finds out they've been tricked by Constantine, because one way it could go is Harry being screwed over by Constantine's con, but the other way it could go is that Constantine tries to trick him but Harry points out something with the truth on his side, the entity checks the facts and sees that Dresden is right and thus wins because it proves that Harry doesn't screw over the people he deals with. (he literally can't, on a supernatural level- Harry's magic weakens if he breaks promises even before he goes Winter Knight, so if he agrees to something he has to follow through).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    ....that would be Dresdens "Honest Nerd Detective" talk Vs. Constantine "Worlds Greatest Con-Man" talk. thing is Dresden was trying to lie, he'd be beat, but he doesn't do that, so the strategies would be completely different. because Dresden deals honestly with the entities he trucks with and they can count on him to follow through and this builds a relationship, while Constantine is all about trickery. so it'd all come down to whether the entity finds out they've been tricked by Constantine, because one way it could go is Harry being screwed over by Constantine's con, but the other way it could go is that Constantine tries to trick him but Harry points out something with the truth on his side, the entity checks the facts and sees that Dresden is right and thus wins because it proves that Harry doesn't screw over the people he deals with. (he literally can't, on a supernatural level- Harry's magic weakens if he breaks promises even before he goes Winter Knight, so if he agrees to something he has to follow through).
    Of course that just goes into dresden being tricky himself as its all about the wording of the promise. If he say, swears on his magic to see you dead. There is no time limit mentioned, not even him specifically doing the killing is in there, he just has to see you at some point when you are dead and oath fulfilled. He has been dealing with the fae for far too long to not have his own tricky wordplay games. In his defense though he is generally playing them with beings who are doing the exact same to him. Always trying to get an advantage in a bargain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Of course that just goes into dresden being tricky himself as its all about the wording of the promise. If he say, swears on his magic to see you dead. There is no time limit mentioned, not even him specifically doing the killing is in there, he just has to see you at some point when you are dead and oath fulfilled. He has been dealing with the fae for far too long to not have his own tricky wordplay games. In his defense though he is generally playing them with beings who are doing the exact same to him. Always trying to get an advantage in a bargain.
    True.

    Point is, Dresden doesn't lie in his dealings. Even if he does squirrelly Fae technicality that isn't a lie, because he isn't breaking any promise. That is an ADVANTAGE in any deal or negotiation he makes because whatever he says or promises doesn't have to rely on things on not being true. A con-man on the other hand has to make the person believe that something is happening when it isn't, and on top of that Dresdens a detective, his entire job is to find inconsistencies and clues that don't add up and figuring out the real reasons behind this or that. in a deal if someone lies and shows that they weren't dealing honestly, that screws over the liar. Constantine if he does his con-man thing would have to essentially be conning TWO people at the same time, one of them being a smart human who wasn't born yesterday rather than a cosmic entity who doesn't know how humans think (because they almost never do- thats why they are so easier to trick most of the time in fiction.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Of course that just goes into dresden being tricky himself as its all about the wording of the promise. If he say, swears on his magic to see you dead. There is no time limit mentioned, not even him specifically doing the killing is in there, he just has to see you at some point when you are dead and oath fulfilled. He has been dealing with the fae for far too long to not have his own tricky wordplay games. In his defense though he is generally playing them with beings who are doing the exact same to him. Always trying to get an advantage in a bargain.
    Harry doesn't really play the "exact wording" game very well. His forte is absolutely understanding peoples motivations, and giving them honest reasons to do what he wants them to. He dangles bait, and doesn't even disguise this fact, but its just so tempting that people usually take it anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Harry doesn't really play the "exact wording" game very well. His forte is absolutely understanding peoples motivations, and giving them honest reasons to do what he wants them to. He dangles bait, and doesn't even disguise this fact, but its just so tempting that people usually take it anyway.
    I dunno, given how long his fairy godmother was wanting to turn him into a dog and he kept getting out of it, I would say he can abuse the heck out of loopholes quite well. I will admit its hardly his strongest trait though, but it is a pretty basic survival skill for his setting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    See my point above about blasting magic being the weakest of magics. Killing your opponent with blasting is inefficient. Itís far more efficient to directly disable your opponent, transform him, send him to hell, summon a an unbeatable demon, alter his mental state, or simply alter the world around him.
    Kinda, but not really? D&D does not reflect logic well. To go through your examples:

    Disable: If you can do that, you can kill them. People don't have arbitrarily large pools of HP to work through, and disabling them just gives them a chance to escape.

    Transform them: If you can do that, you can kill them. It's just as hard to turn someone into a mouse as it is to rip their heart from their body. Again, transforming them just gives them a chance to escape.

    Send them to hell: If you can do that, you can just kill them by sending half their body ten feet away or their entire body a hundred feet down. Or if they are particularly tricky, sending them to space. And that way you don't have to risk opening a portal to hell.

    Summon an unbeatable demon: Sure, that's a good one. Risky though because said demon is likely either working for something, or is being contained by your will. Either way, losing control of the demon usually results in you being eaten by said demon.

    Alter his mental state: In most settings, this is typically much more difficult then just blasting them, but to be fair, it's much more useful. Probably why it keeps getting used against Protaganists who are able to summon the willpower (or whatever) to break free. Thus revealing the weakness of altering their mental state.

    Alter the world around them: Sure, this is often a really good tactic, particularly against enemy magic users, because their protections against magic rarely protect their surroundings.

    And that's not even looking specifically at a setting. There are tons and tons of magic systems, so some will fit better into other categories than others. D&D's magic is an exception because: A) It's magic always works, B) It takes the same amount of effort no matter what spell you are casting. C) Everyone is much much more durable than actual people.
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    A misconception I've noticed: Harry Potter isn't bad at resisting mind control. The first time he's exposed to the imperious curse(when Barty Crouch jr. is posing as Mad Eye Moody and using it on the students under the logic of helping them build resistance to it,) Harry thinks that the command to jump on the desk is silly and pulls back at the last second. Fake-Moody is impressed that he managed to partly resist it and keeps using it on Harry until Harry can shrug it off.

    Later in the same book, Harry, who was physically exhausted at the time, was able to resist Voldemort's own Imperious curse with moderate effort.

    What Harry sucks at resisting is mind reading. Or having ideas implanted in his own mind.

    In the fifth book, Harry is being taught Occulemency to prevent him from seeing into Voldemort's mind accidentally less Voldemort himself find out about the connection and use it.

    Even then, he was being taught by Snape, it was abundantly clear that neither of them wanted to be there(though Snape did give Harry a backhanded compliment, which is the single nicest thing he's ever said to a Potter,) Harry liked the visions because he felt it would let him contribute to the fight, and Snape's instructions were sub-par: "Do whatever it takes to keep me out of your head and clear your mind of thoughts and emotions." The first one doesn't necessarily help and the second is kind of a "don't think about pink elephants" type thing.

    Another thing to note is that Harry is pretty high in power by his setting's standards. In his first fight against Voldemort in the Graveyard, when the twin cores of Harry and Voldemort's wands force the confrontation to a beam-struggle, a battle of will and raw power, Harry wins. He overpowers Voldemort despite Voldemort being a full-grown adult wizard who is noted in-series to be particularly powerful. A the time, Harry was physically and emotionally spent, had multiple open wounds, had been poisoned by a giant magical spider, being exposed to the mind control and torture curses within the last half hour, and had just seen a friend of his being murdered in cold blood because he was there.

    Harry would have been running on fumes at the point where he overpowered tom.

    The main problem is that spells in HP are based on skill, knowledge, intent, and practice rather than a wizard's raw power. (Fake-Moody claims that the whole class of fourth years could cast the unblockable killing curse on him at once and it wouldn't do anything because he doubts any of them have it in them to kill a man.)
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