Need Necromancy house rules to explain current state of the game

[monkey3]

I am sure this has been asked before. If it has been answered, I would appreciate a pointer to the links. What I am referring to in the title are the obvious discrepancies between what is in the Monster Manual, and what is in the Player's handbook.

I have a mid-level Necromancer who wants rules in order to some things. I would like some house rules that could account for (correct):
1: How do you make a Skeletal Warhorse or Minotaur.
2: How do you make a Beholder Zombie or Ogre Zombie?
3: How to you make permanent skeletons and zombies. (Please do not give me the math on how many temporary skeletons a 7th level necromancer can support given the crippled 5e Animate Dead spell).

Thanks.

[Segev]

I am sure this has been asked before. If it has been answered, I would appreciate a pointer to the links. What I am referring to in the title are the obvious discrepancies between what is in the Monster Manual, and what is in the Player's handbook.

I have a mid-level Necromancer who wants rules in order to some things. I would like some house rules that could account for (correct):
1: How do you make a Skeletal Warhorse or Minotaur.
2: How do you make a Beholder Zombie or Ogre Zombie?

You'll need new spells, essentially. Or could make a feat, or a unique "ritual" that is not just a spell, or even could treat them as magic items. But the RAW don't have explicit means, so you're in house rules territory. The easiest way would be a new spell.

3: How to you make permanent skeletons and zombies. (Please do not give me the math on how many temporary skeletons a 7th level necromancer can support given the crippled 5e Animate Dead spell).

Thanks.

Animate dead's creations are permanent...just not permanently under your control. This is problematic for obvious reasons, but on the up side, you could argue that they'll continue to do as they were last told. You can also use (weirdly) Charm effects on them, and just general Persuasion. They're naturally evil, so predisposed towards evil deeds. When you relinquish control, use your Charisma to keep them friendly. Use undead still under your control as props in a "follow along" sort of way. If you give an order to attack a farming village, and 30% of the undead obey because they have no choice, that's probably going to give you some sway on your Persuasion check to get the rest to follow suit.

Geas lasts for 30 days, though it's single-target. The Charmed condition at least means the bigger, nastier zombies and skeletons you choose to use it on will be unable to attack you.

It's slower and requires active murder (which seems wasteful; can't use it on already-corpses!), but finger of death in 5e animates those it slays as zombies under your control with no time limit. Slowly murder your way through a town. (You can even order your other minions to beat people unconscious, so they're at 0 hp but not dead, then hit them with it, to guarantee each one is a kill.)



Actually, I would suggest this feat I just came up with while writing this:

Necromaster
You are particularly adept at using magic to compell the undead.

• Undead creatures suffer disadvantage on saves versus any spells you cast which inflict the Charmed condition.
• Undead Charmed by you count as having been created by you.
• You are considered proficient in charisma checks against the undead.

[Nagog]

You could add a form of houserule similar to many higher level spells with the descriptor of "Casting this every day for (I'd suggest one month, but most spells with this are a full year) Makes this permanent". This makes it more work than the Finger of Death approach, but you can do it to multiple creatures at a time.

[Fable Wright]

If I were running it:

Each casting of Animate Dead can keep under control 1 CR worth of skeletons or zombies, or animate 1/4th CR worth of zombies. Each level you upcast this gives you an additional 1/2 CR.

You can get skeletal warhorses, ogres, and minotaurs this way.

You do not get Beholder Zombies. Period. There is no version of Animate Dead that can generate an equivalent CR 5 creature. You can work out a Planar Binding equivalent if the player really wants it.

[Dalebert]

I was going to mention Finger of Death but someone beat me to it. My necromancer has a beholder zombie from his control undead feature and it has so far been useless because it's so damned slow and bulky.

You can also True Polymorph something into what you want and then Control Undead it.

A for permanent undead, I don't see a problem with the current process. It seems reasonable for a necromancer to pay some sort of price to maintain his horde and a few of his spell slots each day seems fine.

[Vogie]

One way you can avoid the recasting issue is making the animate dead spell have an "upkeep" - that is, after casting it, you essentially lose that spell slot. When you take a long rest, and prepare a spells, that "Animate Dead" spell slot is automatically prepared and recast, using the appropriate spell slot, unless the player says otherwise.

Each casting of Animate Dead can keep under control 1 CR worth of skeletons or zombies, or animate 1/4th CR worth of zombies. Each level you upcast this gives you an additional 1/2 CR.

You can get skeletal warhorses, ogres, and minotaurs this way.

You do not get Beholder Zombies. Period. There is no version of Animate Dead that can generate an equivalent CR 5 creature. You can work out a Planar Binding equivalent if the player really wants it.

I like this idea, but I think it could get clunky.

I think if they find a Beholder Zombie, they could attempt to assume control over it - but I agree that they should not be able to generate one from the corpse of a beholder.

[monkey3]

If I were running it:

...

You do not get Beholder Zombies. Period. There is no version of Animate Dead that can generate an equivalent CR 5 creature. You can work out a Planar Binding equivalent if the player really wants it.

My beef is that Beholder Zombie exists in the MM. How? I want a PC necromancer to be able to create the same thing an NPC necromancer created.

<I don't know how to do multiple replies>

Tanks for mentioning Finger of Death. I had forgotten that.

Dalebert:
I can't find Control Undead. Are you talking about the ability to charm a single undead. I am pretty sure the beholder is too smart, but thanks. I did not think about Polymorph and that.

Vogie:
I think you should be able to make undead versions of the corpses you find. 3.5 did this so well. Undead Dragon for the win.

[Teaguethebean]

I think you should be able to make undead versions of the corpses you find. 3.5 did this so well. Undead Dragon for the win.

You actually can make an undead dragon with that homebrew rule that was proposed. Just only wyrmlings. Also a big problem with permanent undead is it was a good cause of the caster martial split in 3.5 and giving permanent undead in 5e would be even more op with bounded accuracy.

[JackPhoenix]

My beef is that Beholder Zombie exists in the MM. How? I want a PC necromancer to be able to create the same thing an NPC necromancer created.

So create a new spell for that. PHB doesn't list every spell that exists.

Besides, not every zombie is the result of a spell. They can arise spontaneously. And beholders specifically are known for turning undead on their own.

[Kane0]

I am sure this has been asked before. If it has been answered, I would appreciate a pointer to the links. What I am referring to in the title are the obvious discrepancies between what is in the Monster Manual, and what is in the Player's handbook.

I have a mid-level Necromancer who wants rules in order to some things. I would like some house rules that could account for (correct):
1: How do you make a Skeletal Warhorse or Minotaur.
2: How do you make a Beholder Zombie or Ogre Zombie?
3: How to you make permanent skeletons and zombies. (Please do not give me the math on how many temporary skeletons a 7th level necromancer can support given the crippled 5e Animate Dead spell).

Thanks.

1 and 2 are easy. Instead of specific creatures, allow Animate Dead to operate on an XP budget.
For example from a 5th level slot you would normally get five skeletons or zombies. That's worth 500 XP (adjusted), so you could swap them for a Minotaur skeleton (which is worth 450 XP). For the same XP you could get a Ghoul + Skeletal horse too.

3 can be solved in a very slow fashion by using Finger of Death, but you could make a ritual spell to do that. Perhaps something like Desecrate, which you can make permanent if you cast it each day for a year and buffs (by numbers and/or duration controlled) undead created within its area.
Alternatively, maybe a feat or Necromancer feature that allows more spells to work like Finger of Death. Blight, Enervation, Circle of Death and Horrid Wilting are all good candidates.

[intregus]

This is what homebrew rules my table uses for animate dead. It brings back the versatility it had from 3.5.

Note: my table is not a power gaming table so we don't worry about possible cheese with this change in rules.

Animate Dead
This spell turns the bones or bodies of a dead creature with a maximum CR of 1 into an undead skeleton or zombie that will follow your commands. The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.). The target becomes a skeleton or a zombie if you so choose. To raise a creature from the dead as a skeleton add the Skeleton Template listed below to the creature's stat block. To create a Zombie add the Zombie template listed below to the creature’s stat block. This spell does not work on constructs, elementals, oozes, plants or other undead creatures. On each of your turns, you can use a bonus action to mentally command any creature you made with this spell if the creature is within 60 feet of you (if you control multiple creatures, you can command any or all of them at the same time, issuing the same command to each one). You decide what action the creature will take and where it will move during its next turn, or you can issue a general command, such as to guard a particular chamber or corridor. lf you issue no commands, the creature only defends itself against hostile creatures. Once given an order, the creature continues to follow it until its task is complete. The creature is under your control for 24 hours, after which it stops obeying any command you've given it. To maintain control of the creature for another 24 hours, you must cast this spell on the creature again before the current 24-hour period ends. This use of the spell animates or reasserts your control over a combined total of CR1 undead creatures(undead creatures with a CR of 0 count as a CR of ⅛ for determining how many undead creatures you can control).
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you may animate or reassert control over a creature with a CR of 2 and the CR increases by 1 for every slot level above 3rd.

Skeleton Template
Size and Type- The base creature’s size does not change. The base creature’s type changes to undead.
AC-AC is reduced by 2
HP-2 x the amount of HD of the base creature + the Hit die of the base creature
Speed-A winged skeleton cannot use their wings to fly unless the base creature flew magically then so can the skeleton. A skeleton retains the base walking and climbing speeds of the base creature.
Abilities- STR stays the same, Dex +2, CON becomes 15 and HP is adjusted accordingly, INT -4, WIS stays the same, CHA becomes a -4
Proficiencies- A Skeleton retains all of the weapon and armor proficiencies as the base creature. A skeleton is not proficient in any skills or saving throws.
Damage Vulnerabilities- Bludgeoning
Damage Immunities- Poison
Condition Immunities-Exhaustion, poisoned
Senses- Darkvision 60ft
Languages- understands all languages it knew in life but can't speak
Traits- lose the multiattack trait if they have it.
Lose any special attacks or abilities that rely on flesh such as keen hearing and smell, or a scorpion's sting.
Actions- lose all legendary actions
CR- same as base creature

Zombie Template
Size and Type- The base creature’s size does not change. The base creature’s type changes to undead.
AC- -3
HP-3 x the amount of HD of the base creature + the Hit die of the base creature
Speed- Same as base creature.
Abilities- STR +1, Dex stays the same, CON becomes a 16, Int -6, Wis -4, Cha -4
Proficiencies- Retains all of the weapon and armor proficiencies as the base creature. A zombie gains proficiency in wisdom and loses proficiency in all other saving throws.
Damage Immunities- Poison
Condition Immunities- poisoned
Senses- Darkvision 60ft
Languages- understands all languages it knew in life but can't speak
Traits- lose the multiattack trait if they have it.
Undead fortitude-If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit
points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC
of 5 +the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or
from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit
point instead.
Special- Some traits may or may not transfer over from the base creature like a Beholders antimagic cone. These traits are DM dependant.
Actions- Lose all legendary actions if it has any
CR- same as base creature

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Finger of Death give you a zombie.

A humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie that is permanently under your command, following your verbal orders to the best of its ability.

You can also give him the ability to permanently control X undeads or even make it an item if you want to give it to your players.

[ZenBear]

I don't have a better solve for this than has already been presented by others, but I figured I'd spread the word on an awesome homebrew Necromancer class that I use in my campaign setting.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...gaDx-XwfE/edit

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comment...finished_v041/

[Witty Username]

Each casting of Animate Dead can keep under control 1 CR worth of skeletons or zombies, or animate 1/4th CR worth of zombies. Each level you upcast this gives you an additional 1/2 CR.

You can get skeletal warhorses, ogres, and minotaurs this way.

You do not get Beholder Zombies. Period. There is no version of Animate Dead that can generate an equivalent CR 5 creature. You can work out a Planar Binding equivalent if the player really wants it.

I like this, you could possibly use the same idea for create undead for beholder zombies, it normally creates 3 CR 2 creatures, one CR 5 creature seems fine with maybe an upcast.

<I don't know how to do multiple replies>

I tend to open reply with quote in a new window and copy paste what I need from the quote messages. seems to work

[Dalebert]

Dalebert:
I can't find Control Undead. Are you talking about the ability to charm a single undead. I am pretty sure the beholder is too smart, but thanks. I did not think about Polymorph and that.

I thought the level 14 necromancer feature was called Control Undead. My memory could be off.

It's a charisma save and zombie beholders are like -4. Unless you've dumped int, they should not be able to make the save, ever. My DM didn't bother rolling.

But what you really want is a bone claw. They're -1 charisma saves, so if you can hit DC 20, they can't make their save either. Doesn't even matter that they get to keep saving every hour.