Team Kegger: How to optimize for this PHB-only situation?

[Elkad]

Because after the first few levels, you can expect the majority of fights to have difficult terrain, or guys with spears, or flying/burrowing monsters you can't just spur your horse at, or defensive grease spells in front of them, or just rooms so small you can't charge.

And I don't know about your table, but mine has significantly higher ACs than that chart. But lets stick to the chart.
Looking at SRD CR12 single monsters (encounters less-likely to have terrain/situational advantages for your L10 party), I see that the average listed is kinda silly (22 on that chart, which is 2pts lower than CR11 and 5pts lower than CR13 - The AC1 black pudding is costing the whole average nearly 2AC on it's own) . It's more like 27 for anything you want to be in reach of.

Core, spirited charging on a mount of some sort, 10' of reach with your lance. L10. BAB10, +8str, +2charge, +2 weapon. +20 to hit. You may have a couple more points from bard, haste, etc.
Vs AC27, using a 1d8 lance, the power attack calculator says PA for 3. But it's only 0.9pts of damage better (call it 3 points once you triple it through spirited charge). You do a whopping 40 damage. Weapon Specialization (Lance) would be better.
Tack on a prone opponent, haste and 3 points of bardsong (for another +8), and you start to get somewhere. 8x3 extra damage

So what can we charge?

Basilisk, Greater Abyssal - AC17, admittedly terrible. This is a good candidate for ubercharging. Assuming your mount makes it's save. Maybe you should charge from straight above it and let your now-stone griffon smash it to a pulp.
Dragon, Brass, Adult - AC27, plus Mage Armor at least, and maybe Shield or something. 31-40 in practice. And it flies faster than any mount you'll have.
Dragon, Bronze, Young adult - AC26+buffs & flight
Dragon, White, Mature adult - AC28+buffs & flight
Frost Worm - AC18. Melee isn't a threat, but it's a bag of hitpoints, and the breath+explosion when it dies is a problem. Soften it up and get out of range so the wizard can finish it off.
Inevitable, Kolyarut - AC27+invisibility. Charge candidate
Kraken - How many adventures don't use open water at all? A lot. AC20 is bad, but near 300hp and the fact you don't EVER want to be in a grapple with one means charging seems a poor idea. And it has reach on you, so it's just going to snatch you and your seahorse up before you get in attack range.
Leonal - AC27, +4 Deflection if you are evil. You can charge this one, and trip it even.
Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal - AC26, 300hp, effectively always hits (+34), has reach and improved grab like the Kraken, so you can't get to it.
Ooze, Elder Black Pudding. OK, you can power attack this. For full value even, since it has an AC of 1 But only with your backup mace if you expect to do damage. 300hp again, and it outreachs you and has improved grab.
Purple Worm - outreaches you. Terrible at AC19. On the AoO it's going to grapple your horse and then swallow it whole next turn.
Cryohydra, Eleven-Headed - AC21, terrible, but it's huge and gets 11 attacks. Better 1-shot it.
Pyrohydra, Eleven-Headed - Same as above
Roper - AC24. 50' touch attacks, that grapple your horse and stop the charge, plus probably render it too weak to carry you.

Every encounter with class levels is going to have ACs like the dragons, unless it's immune to melee or something.


So unless someone trips the monster for you, or you have a source of True Strike or Touch attacks (unlikely given the OPs rules), PA is something your charger just doesn't need.
Of course when you can't charge but can full attack it's decent. It doesn't get good until you have a source of full attack all the time (pounce, travel domain, etc).

[Anthrowhale]

I believe the disagreement about PA is really about optimization level. In particular, in a well-functioning/well-optimized party, the to-hit bonus is much higher, allowing for PA to be much more heavily used. On the other hand, if you are going solo, or have a dysfunctional party it is difficult to eak out significant gains from power attack.

[Elkad]

I believe the disagreement about PA is really about optimization level. In particular, in a well-functioning/well-optimized party, the to-hit bonus is much higher, allowing for PA to be much more heavily used. On the other hand, if you are going solo, or have a dysfunctional party it is difficult to eak out significant gains from power attack.

If the party is optimized, either the DM will use higher CR creatures, or optimize "appropriate CR" ones to offset.* Either way their AC climbs proportionally.

*There is a 3rd case where the DM does neither and the party roflstomps everything. Unlikely except when the DM is new.

[Anthrowhale]

If the party is optimized, either the DM will use higher CR creatures, or optimize "appropriate CR" ones to offset.* Either way their AC climbs proportionally.

*There is a 3rd case where the DM does neither and the party roflstomps everything. Unlikely except when the DM is new.

This sounds like agreement now---if PA is something that a DM responds to, then PA matters in a way that many other choices do not.

As for whether or not a DM will fully compensate by upping AC, I expect many DMs allow at least some of the benefits of PA to be retained, partly because melee combat is otherwise underpowered, partly because rewarding cleverness and team play has some value, and partly because increasing the AC of all monsters requires effort.

[Endarire]

I updated Tyrian to have the Travel & War [guisarme] domains. He has Imp Init at level 1 to go sooner.

[Anthrowhale]

I'd be tempted to get Improved Trip at level 1 instead of Improved Initiative. Going first is somewhat less important at early levels relative to later levels. On the other hand, Improved Trip is probably more applicable at the early levels than the later levels since you'll often have small foes (for example goblin or kobold) that are relatively easily tripped and relatively incapable of escaping prone as standing up provokes an attack of opportunity.

[Endarire]

At what levels is tripping (especially with Improved Trip) likely most viable? I know that, in general, melee units become bigger as levels progress.

[Eldariel]

At what levels is tripping (especially with Improved Trip) likely most viable? I know that, in general, melee units become bigger as levels progress.

It's more-so enemy type dependent. If it's walking/legged/winged, it can be tripped, but if it flies magically (like most casters), it can't. This means most monsters are fair game for tripping (and Polymorph and its ilk give you access to sufficient size to trip regardless of enemy size), but it's less often useful against NPCs (and monsters that have casting such as some Outsiders - but they tend to have native flight meaning flight magic is often less interesting and useful). Which is where the problem lies: it's impossible to say the level range the DM uses NPC casters on.

Standard Trip Cleric with Enlarge Person + Righteous Might can do basic trippery from like 1-10 no problem and Dispel Trippery against casters. It's a great tool to have in your toolbox though just for the fact that it's generally a passive strategy that you can benefit of without using combat actions, and one that can be very helpful. Particularly once you get a permanent PAO going.

[Endarire]

What do you mean by Dispel Trippery?

For Tyrian's feats, what say you to this?

1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: Combat Reflexes
6: Improved Initiative
(rest the same as above)

[Eldariel]

What do you mean by Dispel Trippery?

Well, Dispel magical flight, then Trip.

[Anthrowhale]

For Tyrian's feats, what say you to this?

1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: Combat Reflexes
6: Improved Initiative
(rest the same as above)

This seems good to me.

I might go for Power Attack@6 instead of Improved Init (pushing that off for 3 levels) because it makes you a better melee combat specialist in the context of your party. For solo play, Improved Initiative is probably more important.

W.r.t. metamagic, Extend Spell (always) and Silent Spell (if you use stealth tactics) are typically superior to Cleave. Cleave is good for burning through mooks faster, but mook-busting usually isn't the most challenging form of combat. So, my preference is something like:
1 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3. Combat Reflexes
6. Silent Spell (if stealth) or Power Attack (if not)
9. Power Attack (if stealth) or Extend Spell (if not)
12. Improved Initiative
15. Quicken Spell (Quicken Divine Power works @L15)
18. Extend Spell (if stealth) or ?? (if not)

[EldritchWeaver]

In regards to "-Overland travel and outdoorsmanship. This means hunting, cooking, and navigating.":

There are enough spells that this will be only a concern at low-levels. Creating food and water eliminate the need to forage and variants of fly and teleport eliminate most or all encounters/challenges of navigation and traveling.

[Eldariel]

This seems good to me.

I might go for Power Attack@6 instead of Improved Init (pushing that off for 3 levels) because it makes you a better melee combat specialist in the context of your party. For solo play, Improved Initiative is probably more important.

W.r.t. metamagic, Extend Spell (always) and Silent Spell (if you use stealth tactics) are typically superior to Cleave. Cleave is good for burning through mooks faster, but mook-busting usually isn't the most challenging form of combat. So, my preference is something like:
1 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3. Combat Reflexes
6. Silent Spell (if stealth) or Power Attack (if not)
9. Power Attack (if stealth) or Extend Spell (if not)
12. Improved Initiative
15. Quicken Spell (Quicken Divine Power works @L15)
18. Extend Spell (if stealth) or ?? (if not)

Well, Quicken Spell should be level 12 at latest IMHO (I pick it on 9 with Warrior Clerics); Quicken Divine Favor is really good on level 9 already. Divine Power/Righteous Might + Quicken Divine Favor and you're combat-ready with just surprise round's worth of spells (generally Righteous Might particularly with the trip setup). I don't think Silent Spell is worth that much just because preparing your spells with it is just uneconomical. Rather try and craft a Rod of Silent Spell or Lesser Silent Spell; it's generally good enough to get the first action after all. And you can cast stuff like Invisibility further away, out of easy hearing range.

[Anthrowhale]

Well, Quicken Spell should be level 12 at latest IMHO (I pick it on 9 with Warrior Clerics); Quicken Divine Favor is really good on level 9 already. Divine Power/Righteous Might + Quicken Divine Favor and you're combat-ready with just surprise round's worth of spells (generally Righteous Might particularly with the trip setup).

If you're fighting one combat between rests, this seems viable. At the 4 / rest rate recommended by the DMG you are better off just using Divine Power for several more levels. Quicken is also iffy in the sense that there are many other spellcasters in the party so it's only really needed for personal-only short duration combat spells of which the Cleric has only 3 (Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might). So, my sense is: L9: barely useful, L12: useful, L15: needed.

I don't think Silent Spell is worth that much just because preparing your spells with it is just uneconomical. Rather try and craft a Rod of Silent Spell or Lesser Silent Spell; it's generally good enough to get the first action after all. And you can cast stuff like Invisibility further away, out of easy hearing range.

My understanding is that there are approximately no permanent magic items in the game and all spells are spontaneous (with no casting time penalty) so the value of Silent Spell is potentially much higher than normal.

[Eldariel]

If you're fighting one combat between rests, this seems viable. At the 4 / rest rate recommended by the DMG you are better off just using Divine Power for several more levels. Quicken is also iffy in the sense that there are many other spellcasters in the party so it's only really needed for personal-only short duration combat spells of which the Cleric has only 3 (Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might). So, my sense is: L9: barely useful, L12: useful, L15: needed.

Well, the 4/day is just a generic guideline and not a very useful one at that. Day-to-day difficulty varies as does encounter difficulty. Sometimes you need to punch way above your weight class and sometimes the encounter is extremely weak where level 1 Divine Favor cast off standard action is all you need (if even that). For those particularly difficult encounters (Dragon-level fights), having access to the biggest buffs pronto is extremely important since you need to start damaging ASAP. It's for these cases where preparing Quickened Divine Favor is quite handy; you won't bring it out in an average fight but when it's clear you're fighting something big and dangerous, you will want that +3/+3 (that amounts to +9 damage with Power Attack, though often against big enemies the hit bonus is worth even more).

My understanding is that there are approximately no permanent magic items in the game and all spells are spontaneous (with no casting time penalty) so the value of Silent Spell is potentially much higher than normal.

Even in that case though, putting yourself essentially a spell level behind can be extremely problematic as Silent Spells are stuff you generally want in the moment rather than 15mins into the future. It's harder for a preparing caster to guess both, which spells you want and whether you want them as silent spells than just silent spells and the cost of losing a spell level when you guess wrong is very salient. It's not without its uses but I'm not sure it's worth the effort. The OP did state there's an alternative system for creating magic items based on skills.

[Anthrowhale]

Well, the 4/day is just a generic guideline and not a very useful one at that. Day-to-day difficulty varies as does encounter difficulty. Sometimes you need to punch way above your weight class and sometimes the encounter is extremely weak where level 1 Divine Favor cast off standard action is all you need (if even that). For those particularly difficult encounters (Dragon-level fights), having access to the biggest buffs pronto is extremely important since you need to start damaging ASAP. It's for these cases where preparing Quickened Divine Favor is quite handy; you won't bring it out in an average fight but when it's clear you're fighting something big and dangerous, you will want that +3/+3 (that amounts to +9 damage with Power Attack, though often against big enemies the hit bonus is worth even more).

I agree with this. I just consider a surprise round less likely than stealth providing multiple rounds for buffing leading to Silent Spell over Quicken Spell.

Even in that case though, putting yourself essentially a spell level behind can be extremely problematic as Silent Spells are stuff you generally want in the moment rather than 15mins into the future.

I feel like you are arguing against yourself here. I could say: "Even in that case though, putting yourself essentially four spell levels behind can be extremely problematic as Quicken Spells are stuff you generally want in the moment rather than 15 minutes into the future." If Silent Spell is problematic, then Quicken Spell seems extra problematic, right?

It's harder for a preparing caster to guess both, which spells you want and whether you want them as silent spells than just silent spells and the cost of losing a spell level when you guess wrong is very salient. It's not without its uses but I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

The cleric here is spontaneous so this concern seems irrelevant.

The OP did state there's an alternative system for creating magic items based on skills.

Yes, but only consumable magic items.

[Endarire]

Metaphysical Items (Permanent): There are permanent metaphysical items in this game, but details are TBA. We expect these to be generally rarer and more powerful than typical items. Metamagic rods or the equivalent are TBA.

Improved Initiative: I like this because it means going before more of the enemies. Sometimes, this means better melee positioning or better casting or just protection from flat-footing.

Silent Spell: I've found Still Spell to be more useful. Metamagic feats' worth beyond Quicken Spell is TBA.

[Eldariel]

I agree with this. I just consider a surprise round less likely than stealth providing multiple rounds for buffing leading to Silent Spell over Quicken Spell.

Stealth is far more situational, I think, since the party has no Hide in Plain Sight or similar abilities and thus hiding is entirely dependent on there being something to hide in in the first place. Many dungeon terrains provide little in that regards, let alone overland terrains.

I feel like you are arguing against yourself here. I could say: "Even in that case though, putting yourself essentially four spell levels behind can be extremely problematic as Quicken Spells are stuff you generally want in the moment rather than 15 minutes into the future." If Silent Spell is problematic, then Quicken Spell seems extra problematic, right?

The cleric here is spontaneous so this concern seems irrelevant.

I forgot about the spontaneous detail. In that case, I completely agree, Silent Spell is probably very good. I like Quicken Spell on normal preparing Clerics on 9 specifically because Quickened Divine Favor is such a good, easy solution to equalizing numbers in combat regardless of the situation (and thus prepareable), but on a spontaneous Cleric more situational metamagic gets way, way better.

In this case, I completely agree with you: Silent Spell is probably worth knowing simply because spontaneous metamagic is extremely strong and you can only deploy it when necessary.

[Endarire]

After hearing back from a GM, he said that Silent Spell will likely only matter for stealth (and, by extension, silence). I like having the option, but the importance of stealth is to be determined.

[Endarire]

I'm familiar with the guides of LogicNinja and Treantmonk, but what Wizard spells warrant special mention here?

[Anthrowhale]

I'm familiar with the guides of LogicNinja and Treantmonk, but what Wizard spells warrant special mention here?

The existing guides heavily cover core, so you are pretty set that way. Adding in the constraint of nearly no items, I'd expect buffs to rise in import. Most of those are transmutation spells but a few come from other schools. Enlarge/Reduce person, Alter self, Darkvision, (Greater) Magic Weapon, Magic Circle, Fly, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, etc...

If you can find any way to get a ring of spell storing, that unlocks quite a bit of further buffing potential.

[Endarire]

Ring of (Greater) Spell Storing or a comparable effect: How would this notably help? I suspect it's most useful for personal buffs like righteous might.

[Eldariel]

Ring of (Greater) Spell Storing or a comparable effect: How would this notably help? I suspect it's most useful for personal buffs like righteous might.

That's mostly it, spells like Alter Self, Righteous Might, etc. are open to people unable to cast them with the item. It's an alternative to Magic Jar buffing.

[Anthrowhale]

That's mostly it, spells like Alter Self, Righteous Might, etc. are open to people unable to cast them with the item. It's an alternative to Magic Jar buffing.

Magic Jar buffing seems great for long duration things (Contingency or Permanency being extreme examples) while the ring is good for short duration buffs, particularly those which are much better on another character.

True Strike: Open encounters with a smite or deliver a must-hit attack.
Blink: The rogue strikes as an invisible creature for 5 rounds.
Tenser's Transformation: A comprehensive buff for a non-spellcasting frontliner.
Antimagic Field: Situationally hilarious for a non-spellcaster.
Iron Body: A solid buff for non-arcane casters.

[Endarire]

Magic jar buffing? That seems spiffy! Explain in more detail how that works!

[Anthrowhale]

Magic jar buffing? That seems spiffy! Explain in more detail how that works!

Wizard possesses nonwizard via Magic Jar, casts personal-only spells, and then ends the possession. For example, this would allow a wizard to use permanency to grant Arcane Sight, Darkvision, and See Invisibility permanently to a nonwizard.

Because Magic Jar's targeting is iffy, this should generally be done without time pressure.

[Endarire]

Wow! Thankee!