OOTS #1168 - The Discussion Thread

[Resileaf]

I’m most amused that only half the council is dominated at the moment, even if the other half is very silly. Vampire in there needs to step up her game.

The vampire inside can't dominate anyone else or she'll get turned to stone.

[The MunchKING]

No, but you can easily write rules around it. For example, any tax code could be statted as a two-handed bludgeoning weapon.

Two-handed? So your GM allows Titans as Playable characters??

Or are you just using an abridged version?

[woweedd]

No, but you can easily write rules around it. For example, any tax code could be statted as a two-handed bludgeoning weapon.

Special ability: Filibuster - lets the wielder make a Full Attack action as a Level 20 Fighter.
Pre-reqs - Lawful alignment, Leadership feat

...I actually do want someone to stat up a Lawyer class now. I just want to kill a Skeleton with the power of OSHA! Is that too much to ask?

[Fyraltari]

I’m most amused that only half the council is dominated at the moment, even if the other half is very silly. Vampire in there needs to step up her game.

That was their plan. Although I had assumed the undominated minority was made up of the Councilmen who were not at the Chamber yet.

EDIT:

...I actually do want someone to stat up a Lawyer class now. I just want to kill a Skeleton with the power of OSHA! Is that too much to ask?

Some kind of Rogue specializing in Charisma, maybe?

[Bacon Elemental]

I’m most amused that only half the council is dominated at the moment, even if the other half is very silly. Vampire in there needs to step up her game.

I guess the rest of the council arrived earlier than expected, before the Exexarch was sent over by Durkula

[gatemansgc]

The runes at the top of the 3rd panel say "follow the law". That's my guess.

honestly a reasonable assumption. especially as both the 1st and 3rd words end in the same rune.



also, i guess the dwarves can be so calm about the domination since they don't even know what they're voting on yet! and i bet now that this motion is in order (to investigate later), they can't take it back once they find out they're voting to destroy the world and doom all dwarves to hel. since, bureaucracy and all.

[Anansiil]

I've been in these kinds of meetings, and it is equally frustrating to observe in (quality) comic form or real life -_- lol

[gatemansgc]

also, since talking is allowed in the chamber, is singing? like bardic song of freedom?

[zimmerwald1915]

Am I the only one who didn't think of anything particular in current politics?

Probably. What people are seeing as reminiscent of current politics isn't the log-rolling (an aside, what we're seeing is about as far as possible to be from bureaucracy; it's a personal, gentile council), it's the specific situation of undue influence on the electorate by people who are not in the electorate.

Which, for what it's worth, is entirely unexceptional.

[Myta]

I mean...Technically, the order is just "vote yes on the proposal". No more obviously self-destructive then, say, "jump in that clear liquid, oh, wait, it's acid". Sure, that action is suicidal in context, but removing context is kind what mind control spells do.

You might be thinking of spells like suggestion were the wording is important. For Dominate it clearly says "Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out." There is absolutely no hint in the spell description that you could get the subject to self destruct by clever wording, removing context or whatever technicalities.
For this spell RAW and RAI is quite clear: this spell cannot be used for anything that would obviously lead to the destruction of the target.

[woweedd]

That was their plan. Although I had assumed the undominated minority was made up of the Councilmen who were not at the Chamber yet.

EDIT:


Some kind of Rogue specializing in Charisma, maybe?

I want the power to harm enemies by quoting rapid-fire legal text at them:
"Ah, you're Lawful, right, Mr...Fire Lord? Ah, knew you were. Well, i'm sorry to inform you, but according to form 1926.10(a), your evil castle is simply not up to code. "no contractor or subcontractor contracting for any part of the contract work shall require any laborer or mechanic employed in the performance of the contract to work in surroundings or under working conditions which are unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous." The pits of acid and magma, with no covering, loose balconies with no safety railing...We have counted, in total, 1317 violations, that is a total fine of 17,034,078 GP. Speaking of legalliase, let us move on to your numerous violations of the Geneva Convention...".

[Fyraltari]

I want the power to harm enemies by quoting rapid-fire legal text at them:
"Ah, you're Lawful, right, Mr...Fire Lord? Ah, knew you were. Well, i'm sorry to inform you, but according to form 1926.10(a), your evil castle is simply not up to code. "no contractor or subcontractor contracting for any part of the contract work shall require any laborer or mechanic employed in the performance of the contract to work in surroundings or under working conditions which are unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous to his health or safety, as determined under construction safety and health standards promulgated by the Secretary by regulation." The pits of acid and magma, with no covering, loose balconies with no safety railing...We have counted, in total, 1317 violations, that is a total fine of 17,034,078 GP. Speaking of legalliase, let us move on to your numerous violations of the Geneva Convention...".

Wait, I already have a headache, I don't need another one!

[ericgrau]

The council needs more ranks in sense motive.

There is a legitimate reason to not wait to vote. Investigations take a long time and then nothing would get done. And nothing getting done is slightly slower than already painfully slow bureaucracy. But hey, that's bureaucracy logic for ya.

[Going Hereward]

"Depressingly and infuriatingly accurate social commentary: the comic."

Hel can have the council then.

[Peelee]

Two-handed? So your GM allows Titans as Playable characters??

Or are you just using an abridged version?

It's a magic item*, so it resizes itself to the wielder.

*well, at the very least, it's arcane.

[zimmerwald1915]

bureaucracy

Can everyone stop abusing this term?

[Fyraltari]

Can everyone stop abusing this term?

This is obviously a tablecracy, people!

[drazen]

"Let's have the vote first, abide by the result, and then look into whether the vote could have been manipulated by outside forces" is depressingly on the nose.

Or, another way to look at it: "Several astonishingly obvious plants with an oppressive, anti-dwarven agenda, the actual scope of which is only apparent to the fully informed, are corrupting and manipulating the bureaucracy for their own nefarious ends. Their only remaining meaningful opposition is a rebel group of non-uniformed irregular combatants, many of whom are ex-military, including a small special-ops group of foreign mercenaries, engaged in what could possibly be framed as civil insurrection."

All that said, once again apparently this book is back to people holding the idiot ball for the plot to work.

[nabcif]

Am I the only one who didn't think of anything particular in current politics? Like you said, ineffective bureaucracy is universal; this parallel could be applied to any point in time if you squint enough.

You are not.

Could be a knowledge check of some sort is necessary to know what the swirly eyes mean. Maybe Knowledge [Religion], since the cleric-but-not-the-high-priest of Dvalin is frowning, while everyone else thinks it's somewhat reasonable to defer investigation?

This doesn't explain why Orange Haired Council Member is smiling after, as Grey_Wolf_c notes, his motion doesn't proceed due to the lack of a second.

Knowledge [Arcana] seems more likely, now that I've looked. FWIW, pretty much everything I know about D&D rules comes from this forum.

Also, for those talking about it being a problem with bureaucracy, I'm a bureaucrat, and I don't have to deal with motions and votes and whatnot like this. Those are for people making the rules, not for people like me who follow them. I was going to ask what this sort of thing is called, but then...

8=<snip>=8
(an aside, what we're seeing is about as far as possible to be from bureaucracy; it's a personal, gentile council)
8=< snip >=8

...I was answered.

[woweedd]

Wait, I already have a headache, I don't need another one!

I actually want to play this now. A Lawyer/Paladin: sharp suit, sharp wits, sharp sword. Most people, when they make deals with otherworldly powers, ask for beauty or strength: she asked for perfect recall. She was supposed to fulfill a precondition within a few days to keep it: She couldn't, but she did manage to discover attempts by said powers to sabotage her efforts, thus breaching the contract. The court swung in her favor, but the near-miss inspired her to turn to a life of helping people.

[The Pilgrim]

And the other half being trial by combat, well A Paladin as your Lawyer will help out a lot there too. :D

[Ruck]

Probably. What people are seeing as reminiscent of current politics isn't the log-rolling (an aside, what we're seeing is about as far as possible to be from bureaucracy; it's a personal, gentile council), it's the specific situation of undue influence on the electorate by people who are not in the electorate.

Which, for what it's worth, is entirely unexceptional.

Indeed. I fear further elaborating on any of my thoughts will definitely violate the no-politics rule, though.

[Lheticus]

Ah, bureaucracy. You can't spell it without something very like "crazy."

[Peelee]

bureaucracy

Can everyone stop abusing this term?

Sure!

So, how about that state or organization governed or managed as a bureaucracy, eh?

[Themrys]

They can see the vampire, they can see the swirling in the other people's eyes and they can see the vampire leaning in to feed the Councilwoman's lines to her yet they treat "they're being dominated" as something that has yet to be demonstrated. Under no circumstances does that attitude makes sense.

It doesn't make sense, but it happens all the time in real life, so ...

Totally plausible.

Obvious danger -> admitting to this obvious danger isn't politically opportune at this moment -> obvious danger is denied until it is much too late

I think guy who says he looks forward to the possibility of being proven wrong must have realized everyone else is insane and is afraid of speaking up any more - also a thing that happens. Or, of course, he is only a very tiny bit cleverer than everyone else and didn't realize the full implications of the domination problem he pointed out.

After what I had to witness in real life, I am really careful with accusing authors of giving their characters the idiot ball. There truly is no limit to human stupidity. Doubly so if people form a group. Lots of people who are intelligent on their own become utter idiots while inside a group of idiots, because saying the obvious truth would lose them the approval of everyone else. To the point of convincing themselves the idiotic point of view is actually true because they cannot endure the cognitive dissonance of saying one thing and believing another.


So, yeah. I have no complaints about the storytelling here. I rather like the parody.

[Ruck]

To zimmerwald's point, this is less about actual bureaucracy and more about a bureaucratic mindset; i.e. an undue and unwarranted faith in process.

I'm reminded a little bit of Eve & Larry's Alchemy.

[Rogar Demonblud]

These people deserve a god who's so Lawful Stupid he'll throw all the souls of all of his followers into an Evil goddess's toy basket for an eternity of suffering because of a long-superceded oath.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

These people deserve a god who's so Lawful Stupid he'll throw all the souls of all of his followers into an Evil goddess's toy basket for an eternity of suffering because of a long-superceded oath.

Yeah, that Heimdall, what a bastard.
[/sarcasm]
Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

If slightly more than 1/2 the council is dominated, how is a resolution to delay going to pass at all?

Well, Gontor did order the Dominated councilors to vote 'yes' on the first proposal. Hence the curly-haired vampire working to keep this from being the first proposal.

I predicted a couple strips ago that the Thundershields would form a clan on the spur of the moment and get a vote in this Council.

Won't happen, because even if they formed a legally recognized clan, they don't have admittance here. This is the dwarf equivalent of the Mayflower Society: if you are not a direct descendant of the original clans, you don't count. Another reason why the rest of the dwarves sidelined them

Anyone else expecting the domination to be dispelled/cancelled once it is revealed what they are voting on?

No. We've discussed this repeatedly, and I think we're up to eight ways this is a dwarfly thing to do. My personal favorite was the one where it is their dwarfly duty to save the souls of everyone on the planet, even if it makes them miserable. Especially if it makes them miserable.

[Resileaf]

Well, Gontor did order the Dominated councilors to vote 'yes' on the first proposal. Hence the curly-haired vampire working to keep this from being the first proposal.

He said 'Main proposal', not first. Curly's words are just a way to make sure the vote happens.