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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    I'm looking to make a wizard subclass that focuses cantrips. It's based on an NPC from the game I run who was built to have as many cantrips as physically possible and who only casts cantrips. My newest game is going to be set in the future of the old one and I'd like to call back to this figure by having a slightly monastic order of wizards who have a cantrip based subclass, which I plan on calling "college of the simple spell".
    Here are some of the ideas I've been spitballing for the basis of the class:
    Option 1: taking the class at 2nd level removes your ability to cast leveled spells and you may replace all spells known with cantrips. From now on every time you gain a level you learn cantrips instead of spells, and you can learn any cantrip regardless of list.(this is most likely the worst option.)
    Option 2: when you take the subclass at 2nd level you can copy cantrips into your spellbook like spells. And you can add your intelligence modifier to cantrip damage.
    Option 3: you gain 2 or 3 more cantrips at level 2 from any class list and gain the ability to upcast cantrips with spell slots to increase damage.
    I'll probably end up combining parts of 2 and 3 but I would love help and friendly advice if anyone has any, as well as any unique ideas I hadn't considered.
    Last edited by moonfly7; 2020-01-19 at 10:07 AM.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    As a rule, subclasses don't remove base class features.

    Practically, what you are designing is so far from a wizard, keeping it a wizard doesn't grant much. It even gets in the way, because you have a character who at level 1 could cast sleep, and forgets how at level 2.

    Brew a new class? Could easily be cantrip-only.

    Or, have mechanics to dedicate spell slots to cantrips? (not cantrip-only)

    Generally, a spellcaster who only casts published cantrips isn't strong/flexible enough. The closest we have is a EB warlock, but even that isn't strong enough; and that only works with that cantrip. So you need to find something else to make it work.

    What was the NPCs name?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    As a rule, subclasses don't remove base class features.

    Practically, what you are designing is so far from a wizard, keeping it a wizard doesn't grant much. It even gets in the way, because you have a character who at level 1 could cast sleep, and forgets how at level 2.

    Brew a new class? Could easily be cantrip-only.

    Or, have mechanics to dedicate spell slots to cantrips? (not cantrip-only)

    Generally, a spellcaster who only casts published cantrips isn't strong/flexible enough. The closest we have is a EB warlock, but even that isn't strong enough; and that only works with that cantrip. So you need to find something else to make it work.

    What was the NPCs name?
    Those reasons are why I'm shying away from option 1 and only cantrips. I'm leaning towards keeping spells and just increasing cantrips known and the wizards cantrip capacity. Also, surprisingly if you have a butt ton of cantrips you can be ridiculously useful, this NPC surprised me by being surprisingly combat effective, and useful utility wise.
    The characters name was Canna Tripe who was an antagonist the players converted to their side.
    Also, I've noticed most casters generally only pop leveled spells every couple rounds, cantrips are the base option for most folks anyways and they hit a lot harder than any nonmagical weapon you could pack. So while weaker than leveled spells, they aren't exactly weak.
    Here's what I'm thinking:
    Three cantrips at level 2 from any classes list and the ability to add cantrips to your spellbook. And add int to cantrip damage.
    Keep normal spellcasting and all other traditional wizard stuff.
    At higher levels perhaps make it possible to cast 2 cantrips at once, or let you add extras like the pushing eldritch blast features.
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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    i would suggest the ability to use spell slots to up the damage of the cantrips.

    also maybe you could use a spell slot to cast a cantrip as a bonus action.

    i have a wizard subclass that gets extra cantrips and can choose a limited number of them as to be bonus action if they already have a casting time of an action.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    As Yakk says, subclasses don't remove base class features, but once I created a wizard subclass that at 2nd level undergo a special ritual that reduces the range of all spells to 5 feet, in exchange of a lot of martial skills, so I wouldn't bother about that...

    Maybe you can retain only the first level column of the spell's table, and add a modest progression of magic points to feed some Metamagic skills to use only with cantrips...
    Last edited by Old Harry MTX; 2020-01-19 at 01:21 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by KittenMagician View Post
    i would suggest the ability to use spell slots to up the damage of the cantrips.

    also maybe you could use a spell slot to cast a cantrip as a bonus action.

    i have a wizard subclass that gets extra cantrips and can choose a limited number of them as to be bonus action if they already have a casting time of an action.
    I like that. It lets you get more blasts off at once and let's you have a kind of "quickened" spell feel.
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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Harry MTX View Post
    As Yakk says, subclasses don't remove base class features, but once I created a wizard subclass that at 2nd level undergo a special ritual that reduces the range of all spells to 5 feet, in exchange of a lot of martial skills, so I wouldn't bother about that...

    Maybe you can retain only the first level column of the spell's table, and add a modest progression of magic points to feed some Metamagic skills to use only with cantrips...
    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    I like that. It lets you get more blasts off at once and let's you have a kind of "quickened" spell feel.
    That's right, but I suggest using a "point system" that allows you to apply various effects to the cantrips, to give more versatility. Half the progression fo the sorcerer should be fine IMHO.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Harry MTX View Post
    That's right, but I suggest using a "point system" that allows you to apply various effects to the cantrips, to give more versatility. Half the progression fo the sorcerer should be fine IMHO.
    I find point systems to be clunky and annoying, and while I like it on sorcerer, I don't want it on a wizard. I'm a big fan of choice's in subclasses, so I think I would go with something like the invocations for eldritch blast but applied to all cantrips, something like: at second level choose one option below to apply to all cantrips:
    All damaging cantrips can knock creatures 10 feet back
    All damaging cantrips can pull target 10 feet closer
    All damaging cantrips add your Int modifier to the damage
    You may cast any cantrip with an action casting time as a bonus action
    You can expend a spell slot to deal an extra die of a cantrips damage.
    And then allow more choices at every new level maybe, and replacing the "better spell copying" thing would be the ability to copy cantrips into your spellbook.
    This way you could still have normal wizard spells, but maiming cantrips would be more possible, and more customizable.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by moonfly7 View Post
    I find point systems to be clunky and annoying, and while I like it on sorcerer, I don't want it on a wizard. I'm a big fan of choice's in subclasses, so I think I would go with something like the invocations for eldritch blast but applied to all cantrips, something like: at second level choose one option below to apply to all cantrips:
    All damaging cantrips can knock creatures 10 feet back
    All damaging cantrips can pull target 10 feet closer
    All damaging cantrips add your Int modifier to the damage
    You may cast any cantrip with an action casting time as a bonus action
    You can expend a spell slot to deal an extra die of a cantrips damage.
    And then allow more choices at every new level maybe, and replacing the "better spell copying" thing would be the ability to copy cantrips into your spellbook.
    This way you could still have normal wizard spells, but maiming cantrips would be more possible, and more customizable.
    Mmm, personally I don't like the idea to give all the cantrips plus all the wizard's spells togheter. It seems to me that you lose the goal of the subclass. :/

    But it's also true that a system that trades spell slots to improve cantrips could be very complex... I don't know, it's up to you ^^

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    Default Re: Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    Ideas.

    1. Things to do with spell slots that aren't spells. Ideally related to cantrips.
    2. Things to do with spells known that aren't spells. Could be related to 1.
    3. Ways to learn new cantrips. Could be related to 2.

    2/6/10/14 are the slots. 2 should provide an identity. So only essential stuff there.

    4e had the White Lotus school, which focused on at-will magic. We can steal.

    White Lotus Studies
    The White Lotus arcane academy focuses on mastering the simplest of spells. Starting at level 2 you can prepare a White Lotus technique in place of a spell at the end of a long rest.

    White Lotus Accuracy: When you miss with a Cantrip, you may expend a spell slot in order to gain a bonus to the attack roll equal to the spell slot level.

    Steel Lotus: When you hit a creature with a Cantrip or a creature fails a saving throw against a Cantrip, you can expend a spell slot to gain a bonus to your AC and saves equal to the spell slot level until the end of your next turn.

    Shadow Lotus: When you miss a target with a Cantrip, or it saves against a Cantrip, you can expend a spell slot to repeat the spell on a target you hadn't targeted with the Cantrip within 5' for level of the spell slot expended.

    ---

    White Lotus Versatility
    Starting at level 6 when you learn a Cantrip, it can be from any class. In addition, you can scribe Cantrips from any class into your spellbook by studying 8 hours under someone who knows the Cantrip, and can prepare additional Cantips from your spellbook by using a spell known.

    In addition, your continued studies of the foundations of magic has taught you about arcane theory. If you are proficient in Arcana, when you make an Intelligence(Arcana) check, you add twice your proficiency modifier to the roll.

    ---

    White Lotus Master
    At 10th level, you are a master of the White Lotus.

    At the end of a long rest, you gain additional spell slots that can only be used to fuel White Lotus techniques. The sum of the levels of these slots cannot exceed the number of spells known dedicated to White Lotus techniques plus the number of Cantrips you have prepared. None of these slots can exceed the highest level of slots you gain from your spellcasting feature.

    You also gain access to more advanced White Lotus techniques:

    White Lotus Riposte: When a creature you have damaged with a Cantrip hits you, or you fail a saving throw caused by that creature, you can expend a reaction and a spell slot to cast a Cantrip on them with a bonus to your to-hit roll or saving throw DC equal to the spell slot level.

    Cutting Lotus: When you hit a creature with a Cantrip or a creature fails a saving throw against one of your Cantrips, you can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage dice (of the Cantrips damage type) equal to the spell slot level.

    Black Lotus: By expending a 4th or higher level spell slot you can cast a Cantrip as a bonus action. You lose HP equal to the spell slot you expend, and the Cantrip has a bonus to its attack roll or DC equal to half the spell slot level you used, and deals extra damage dice (as if you used White Lotus Smite) equal to half the spell slot level you used.

    ---

    The White Lotus Blooms
    Starting at level 14, you can use a given White Lotus technique twice in a turn.
    Last edited by Yakk; Yesterday at 02:58 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    Here is a class that is based around casting only cantrips.
    https://mfov.magehandpress.com/2018/...redux.html?m=1

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Only cantrip wizard subclass-help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Ideas.

    1. Things to do with spell slots that aren't spells. Ideally related to cantrips.
    2. Things to do with spells known that aren't spells. Could be related to 1.
    3. Ways to learn new cantrips. Could be related to 2.

    2/6/10/14 are the slots. 2 should provide an identity. So only essential stuff there.

    4e had the White Lotus school, which focused on at-will magic. We can steal.

    White Lotus Studies
    The White Lotus arcane academy focuses on mastering the simplest of spells. Starting at level 2 you can prepare a White Lotus technique in place of a spell at the end of a long rest.

    White Lotus Accuracy: When you miss with a Cantrip, you may expend a spell slot in order to gain a bonus to the attack roll equal to the spell slot level.

    Steel Lotus: When you hit a creature with a Cantrip or a creature fails a saving throw against a Cantrip, you can expend a spell slot to gain a bonus to your AC and saves equal to the spell slot level until the end of your next turn.

    Shadow Lotus: When you miss a target with a Cantrip, or it saves against a Cantrip, you can expend a spell slot to repeat the spell on a target you hadn't targeted with the Cantrip within 5' for level of the spell slot expended.

    ---

    White Lotus Versatility
    Starting at level 6 when you learn a Cantrip, it can be from any class. In addition, you can scribe Cantrips from any class into your spellbook by studying 8 hours under someone who knows the Cantrip, and can prepare additional Cantips from your spellbook by using a spell known.

    In addition, your continued studies of the foundations of magic has taught you about arcane theory. If you are proficient in Arcana, when you make an Intelligence(Arcana) check, you add twice your proficiency modifier to the roll.

    ---

    White Lotus Master
    At 10th level, you are a master of the White Lotus.

    At the end of a long rest, you gain additional spell slots that can only be used to fuel White Lotus techniques. The sum of the levels of these slots cannot exceed the number of spells known dedicated to White Lotus techniques plus the number of Cantrips you have prepared. None of these slots can exceed the highest level of slots you gain from your spellcasting feature.

    You also gain access to more advanced White Lotus techniques:

    White Lotus Riposte: When a creature you have damaged with a Cantrip hits you, or you fail a saving throw caused by that creature, you can expend a reaction and a spell slot to cast a Cantrip on them with a bonus to your to-hit roll or saving throw DC equal to the spell slot level.

    Cutting Lotus: When you hit a creature with a Cantrip or a creature fails a saving throw against one of your Cantrips, you can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage dice (of the Cantrips damage type) equal to the spell slot level.

    Black Lotus: By expending a 4th or higher level spell slot you can cast a Cantrip as a bonus action. You lose HP equal to the spell slot you expend, and the Cantrip has a bonus to its attack roll or DC equal to half the spell slot level you used, and deals extra damage dice (as if you used White Lotus Smite) equal to half the spell slot level you used.

    ---

    The White Lotus Blooms
    Starting at level 14, you can use a given White Lotus technique twice in a turn.
    I'm going to steal this for my game if that's ok with you. It's perfect. My one issue is that the wizard subclasses gets a "ribbon" feature at 2nd level to the equivalent of faster spell scribing like the school of magic based classes. But I think moving expertise in arcana to 2nd level would work.
    Other than that it's perfect.
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