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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    As the title says, are there any rules you being using wrong for years on end only to find out it works another way? A rule you'd forgotten but just now remembered?

    Early this year I went back to 3.5 after playing/running 5e for years and finding it fun but very limited in options, and after a decade or more I pick up 3.5 PHB for the first time and start reading. It was a nostalgic trip! I felt at home again. I get to the combat section and I read that if you have cover against a foe, they can't make an attack of opportunity on you. Huh. I'd forgotten about that little detail and now my mind is exploring the expanded tactical options. :D

    I just learned today, yes today!, that not all bardic music abilities require him to concentrate each and every round. You can attack normally while singing without issue unless the specific bardic music ability calls out concentration. After all these years, since the books came out, I thought every round the bard must devote a standard action to maintain the effect, like Inspire Courage. No wonder I thought bards sucked lol. I think I might roll up a bard now. ;)

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    I had to look up the Combat Casting (3.5) feat because I had forgotten that you also get the bonus to Concentration checks when you're being grappled.

    It's a situation that doesn't come up very often, and Combat Casting is usually just a feat that Wizards have to take as a prerequisite for something, and the main usage is for casting defensively.
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3.5 DMG p.176
    Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you, as the DM, to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign. The example prestige classes are certainly not all encompassing or definitive. They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes for your campaign are the ones you tailor make yourself.
    Okay... I didn't forget it or get it wrong. I've been preaching that **** for years.

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    For the first 2 years that I played pf, I thought constructs and undead were immune to sneak attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    So, your roleplaying guide is pretty much "Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a confusing corpse"?

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by D+1 View Post
    Okay... I didn't forget it or get it wrong. I've been preaching that **** for years.
    That argument lost a lot of persuasive power when WotC started bulking every splatbook with new PrCs. At that point it starts looking like something that should be part of any splat heavy game, rather than something that should be tightly controlled.

    I only recently found out in pathfinder you can retry IDying a magical item each day. In 3.5 you had to wait until you levelled up and increased your ranks to retry, and I just assumed that hadn't been changed.
    Last edited by Boci; 2019-06-23 at 02:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I only recently found out in pathfinder you can retry IDying a magical item each day. In 3.5 you had to wait until you levelled up and increased your ranks to retry, and I just assumed that hadn't been changed.
    That's knowledge checks, not IDing a magical item. In 3.5, spells that ID a magic item are a guarantee, Identify, analyze dweomer etc, they 100% identify an item, and detect magic has no capability of doing so at all, it merely gets the strength and school of the magic item's aura.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
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    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    That's knowledge checks, not IDing a magical item. In 3.5, spells that ID a magic item are a guarantee, Identify, analyze dweomer etc, they 100% identify an item, and detect magic has no capability of doing so at all, it merely gets the strength and school of the magic item's aura.
    True, learn something new everyday (though you can ID potions with spellcraft in 3.5).
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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    True, learn something new everyday (though you can ID potions with spellcraft in 3.5).
    Something worth noting though, Identify has a 1%/CL chance of identifying a cursed item for what it really is, wheras analyze dweomer automatically identifies a cursed item. That rule is hidden away in the cursed items section in the DMG, as opposed to being noted in the spells' actual descriptions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    I only recently noticed the price multiplier for continuous/unlimited use items which duplicate spells with durations shorter than 1 hour per level (I still don't understand why they didn't give the price for 1 round/level spells as the baseline and have a discount for longer duration spells)

    Also, I've noticed that many other people seem to miss that magic missile is supposed to be limited to creatures as potential targets.

    People also miss that poison is explicitly not Evil (PHB pg219, under the description of Detect Evil "Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them")

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post

    People also miss that poison is explicitly not Evil (PHB pg219, under the description of Detect Evil "Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them")
    No it's not - but using it is.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Only using poison that causes ability score damage/drain/ hp damage. Purely status poison is fine, even fine for exalted good.
    Drow sleep poison is the main contender. Your exalted rogue can use it no issues, other than accidentially poisoning himself. Even paladins iirc.

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    poison use is not evil, it's just against the paladin's code, which is why most people assume it's an evil act.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Too many old DM's used to the AD&D rules where Poison was Evil.
    Gosh, this is 3E not AD&D.
    Why do DM's keep going back to the old rules without thinking?
    It must be a memory thing right?
    It must be they did not truly learn the newer editions.
    They are still remembering elements of older editions.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by HouseRules View Post
    Too many old DM's used to the AD&D rules where Poison was Evil.
    Gosh, this is 3E not AD&D.
    Why do DM's keep going back to the old rules without thinking?
    It must be a memory thing right?
    It must be they did not truly learn the newer editions.
    They are still remembering elements of older editions.
    False, it's specified in the Book of Exalted Deeds at the least.

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    I only recently noticed the price multiplier for continuous/unlimited use items which duplicate spells with durations shorter than 1 hour per level (I still don't understand why they didn't give the price for 1 round/level spells as the baseline and have a discount for longer duration spells)

    Also, I've noticed that many other people seem to miss that magic missile is supposed to be limited to creatures as potential targets.

    People also miss that poison is explicitly not Evil (PHB pg219, under the description of Detect Evil "Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them")
    Quote Originally Posted by HouseRules View Post
    Too many old DM's used to the AD&D rules where Poison was Evil.
    Gosh, this is 3E not AD&D.
    Why do DM's keep going back to the old rules without thinking?
    It must be a memory thing right?
    It must be they did not truly learn the newer editions.
    They are still remembering elements of older editions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    poison use is not evil, it's just against the paladin's code, which is why most people assume it's an evil act.
    Uh, actually, according to the book of exalted deeds:

    Using poison that deals ability damage is an evil act because it causes undue suffering in the process of incapacitating or killing an opponent. Of the poisons described in the Dungeon Masterís Guide, only one is acceptable for good characters to use: oil of taggit, which deals no damage but causes unconsciousness. Ironically, the poison favored by the evil drow, which causes unconsciousness as its initial damage, is also not inherently evil to use.
    So yeah, poison being inherently evil is actually a 3.5 thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Which makes zero sense, anyways.

    I can stab you, I can cast a spell to damage your stats, I can even slowly burn you death with a Combustion spell, but by golly you better not use poison!

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    That argument lost a lot of persuasive power when WotC started bulking every splatbook with new PrCs. At that point it starts looking like something that should be part of any splat heavy game, rather than something that should be tightly controlled.
    More like they're providing extra options for the DM. Or ideally they are. PrCs did make a big mess on powercreep. Part of that is because even the DMG options are mostly stronger and much more flexible than the PHB classes. Affecting not only class balance but messing up the multiclassing system itself. So if you want it balanced and freely available to all players, they should be a good bit weaker than the DMG PrCs. And that's pretty hard to swallow, there'd be so much rage. So the other option would be to repeat the warning that the PrC material is for DM use and allowed to players only by special permission. That's still a bit to ask of an author who wants to make his book look good, vs the ease of saying nothing.

    But let's see what there was early on at least:
    7/2003: PHB I.
    10/2003: BoED. Intro says that while BoVD was directed at DMs, BoED is directed at players. No qualifications given in front of prestige classes, besides that entrance should be for the very good. There is suggestion that prestige classes could be motivation for character creation too, not some odd thing that players wouldn't think of without permission.
    11/2003 Draconomicon: Mentions prestige classes for the DM, but that's because they're meant for dragons. Mentions dragon slaying prestige classes for players.
    12/2003: Complete Warrior: Seems to advertise prestige classes directly to all types of players. Intro on picking a prestige class has some considerations to look into before doing so, none of which is asking the DM. Text seems to imply that either a PC or DM could be reading the book. No suggestion for a DM to consider which PrCs to allow based on XYZ (or to consider it at all).

    I don't think it was the intent in these books for prestige classes to be by DM special permission only. But this DMG rule/suggestion on heavily restricting PrCs could have been copied from the 3.0 DMG. I'd be curious if it's in the 3.0 DMG and what the early 3.0 splats say on PrCs. Perhaps by 3.5 the authors were already in Christmas mode when it comes to PrCs. I ran out of time to check 3.0 though. I gtg.

    I thinking going all Christmas mode on giving PrCs to PCs was a mistake, but it does seem intentional. If anything this is a rules contradiction where later books are flagrantly disregarding the DMG rule/suggestion. At least by the time 3.5 came around. Would be interesting if anyone wants to check the early 3.0 splats.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2019-06-23 at 11:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    Which makes zero sense, anyways.

    I can stab you, I can cast a spell to damage your stats, I can even slowly burn you death with a Combustion spell, but by golly you better not use poison!
    I mean, I don't disagree with you But claiming poison is evil isn't using the rules wrong like people are saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Detect Magic is probably the spell that comes up most often at my table. So much, that we hadn't actually read the spell in years. All of us had actually forgotten you need to roll spellcraft to make sense of it all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    I mean, I don't disagree with you But claiming poison is evil isn't using the rules wrong like people are saying.
    To be fair you had to delve into a splat book to get that ruling. Not every table uses BoED.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    To be fair you had to delve into a splat book to get that ruling. Not every table uses BoED.
    This is true, but it's the main place where the details of what are considered good and evil acts were clarified in 3.5. I can understand why some people don't use it though, some of the rulings there are pretty stupid IMO (another highly questionable one came up in another thread on here only the other day in fact).

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by D+1 View Post
    Okay... I didn't forget it or get it wrong. I've been preaching that **** for years.
    I understand and accept that the rule exists. Tables where prestige classes are allowed by default are more fun than tables where theyíre not. So, like many other things in the RAW: I pat it on the head and tell it itís getting an A for effort. Now go play outside while I use as many prestige classes as I need to execute on the concept Iím trying to bring to the table.
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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    I mean, I don't disagree with you But claiming poison is evil isn't using the rules wrong like people are saying.
    The core rules say otherwise

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    The core rules say otherwise
    as far as I'm aware, the core rules don't say otherwise, because the core rules don't say anything specifically on the matter. Detect evil saying mentioning poison is irrelevant to the point, because it's basically saying that mundane objects don't radiate evil auras, even if they've been set up in evil ways. Torture devices also don't register as evil, so if we follow that logic, that means torture isn't evil?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    One rule that I got wrong for years (until recently) was in regards to Mithral Armor. I know it's considered one category lighter for purposes of movement and other limitations, which does not include proficiency.

    However, as a caveat to that, I decided that classes who can cast arcane spells in certains classes of armor (bard, warmage), it would count as the lighter category in that respect, since ASF is based on movement restriction.

    Of course, one can always custom-order a suit of +1 Mithral Breastplate with the Twilight and Nimbleness enchantments (and a thistledown lining from Races of the Wild), which has a +6 armor bonus, -0 ACP and 0% ASF. The only penalty for wearing armor with which one is not proficient is to take the ACF (-0) to your attack rolls.
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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    A rule I just found out I got wrong was Bonus Spells per Day. I thought you got your Casting Stat Modifier as a Bonus, but nope. The Bonus is very small instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosStar View Post
    A rule I just found out I got wrong was Bonus Spells per Day. I thought you got your Casting Stat Modifier as a Bonus, but nope. The Bonus is very small instead.
    Can you elaborate on this?
    I'm not sure what you mean and now I'm suddenly second guessing every caster I've played.
    You use your modifier for the table on page 8 of the Player's Handbook...right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PraxisVetli View Post
    Can you elaborate on this?
    I'm not sure what you mean and now I'm suddenly second guessing every caster I've played.
    You use your modifier for the table on page 8 of the Player's Handbook...right?
    I think ChaosStar assumed you just added your modifier to the number of spells you got, rather than going through the table.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    I think ChaosStar assumed you just added your modifier to the number of spells you got, rather than going through the table.
    Oh.
    Whew!
    That'd be pretty great though wouldn't it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jergmo View Post
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    'Prax' is fine.

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    Default Re: Rules you got wrong or had forgotten over the years/decade+ until recently?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    One rule that I got wrong for years (until recently) was in regards to Mithral Armor. I know it's considered one category lighter for purposes of movement and other limitations, which does not include proficiency.

    However, as a caveat to that, I decided that classes who can cast arcane spells in certains classes of armor (bard, warmage), it would count as the lighter category in that respect, since ASF is based on movement restriction.

    Of course, one can always custom-order a suit of +1 Mithral Breastplate with the Twilight and Nimbleness enchantments (and a thistledown lining from Races of the Wild), which has a +6 armor bonus, -0 ACP and 0% ASF. The only penalty for wearing armor with which one is not proficient is to take the ACF (-0) to your attack rolls.
    "Other limitations" is pretty broad to the point where you could include proficiencies and casting limitations. It does outright say "Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light."

    Pathfinder specifically noted that proficiencies aren't changed for these armors, but I think in 3.5, proficiencies requirements could definitely be seen as being reduced. In some circumstances, this actually makes armor worse, such as in the case of heavy armor optimization, a mithril full plate for example would be treated as medium armor, and wouldn't gain the benefits of heavy armor optimization.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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