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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    I've just been having a look at the Paladin and Ranger spells per day progression, and it never fully occurred to me before how weird it is. In particular, at level 19 they get 3 more spells, while at every other level they get 0 or 1 more. More generally, they get next to no spells for the first 10 levels of their spell progression, and then get three-quarters of the total in the last 7 levels.

    None of the other core classes, base or prestige, are like this: only the Blackguard is even vaguely similar. All the other classes get a fairly smooth progression, not in a sudden rush in the last few levels. Any idea why the Paladin and Ranger work this way?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    No - unless it's just copying from an earlier edition which had its own design parameters (often buried in the head of the designer).

    I'd be interested to see a smoothed progression, if this is the case.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    In earlier versions, they thought that adding martial prowess and caster levels together was a recipe for disaster. We later found out that all that matters is how high your caster level is, with the martial prowess being stupidly easy to replicate most of the time, but they didn't know back then.

    It's why I prefer Consecrated Harrier. You don't need many spells per day anyway, since Ranger wands are cheap as hell.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    No - unless it's just copying from an earlier edition which had its own design parameters (often buried in the head of the designer).

    I'd be interested to see a smoothed progression, if this is the case.
    Yeah, I'd been considering adopting a smoother progression, but I wondered if there was any good reason for the existing one.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    In earlier versions, they thought that adding martial prowess and caster levels together was a recipe for disaster. We later found out that all that matters is how high your caster level is, with the martial prowess being stupidly easy to replicate most of the time, but they didn't know back then.
    Interesting. I already give Paladins and Rangers caster level of class level -3 rather than half class level, and their spellcasting is still pretty weak, especially the Ranger.

    So there's not any good reason not to give them their spells per day a little earlier then? It's not like either class is exactly overpowered as it is...

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Yeah, I'd been considering adopting a smoother progression, but I wondered if there was any good reason for the existing one.



    Interesting. I already give Paladins and Rangers caster level of class level -3 rather than half class level, and their spellcasting is still pretty weak, especially the Ranger.

    So there's not any good reason not to give them their spells per day a little earlier then? It's not like either class is exactly overpowered as it is...
    You could literally copy the Duskblade's Spells-per-day table as-is and give it to the Ranger and Paladin. You'd just need to make a new list for known orisons and 5th-level spells, but you could just steal some from Druid and Cleric respectively. Maybe some domain spells from Ehlonna and Heroineus as well.

    That fix alone would make the classes a thousand times better.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    I thought the same. You could even just leave 5th level blank so it's explicitly for metamagic or spells you learn another way. Hell, Duskblades don't even get 5th level spells until what, 16th level? Will you even be playing with a single-classed Ranger or Paladin in the party until then?

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    I thought the same. You could even just leave 5th level blank so it's explicitly for metamagic or spells you learn another way. Hell, Duskblades don't even get 5th level spells until what, 16th level? Will you even be playing with a single-classed Ranger or Paladin in the party until then?
    Well, if you do give them nice toys for staying single-classed...
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Sure but it's a minority of games that reach that level.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Sure but it's a minority of games that reach that level.
    Well, gotta make it consistent anyhow.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    You could literally copy the Duskblade's Spells-per-day table as-is and give it to the Ranger and Paladin. You'd just need to make a new list for known orisons and 5th-level spells, but you could just steal some from Druid and Cleric respectively. Maybe some domain spells from Ehlonna and Heroineus as well.

    That fix alone would make the classes a thousand times better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    I thought the same. You could even just leave 5th level blank so it's explicitly for metamagic or spells you learn another way. Hell, Duskblades don't even get 5th level spells until what, 16th level? Will you even be playing with a single-classed Ranger or Paladin in the party until then?
    Wow, just had a look at the Duskblade's spell progression, that would be quite a power-up. Says a lot that they STILL wouldn't be overpowered...

    There was a thread on here not long ago about giving the Paladin and Ranger 5th-level spells, I've been toying with the idea ever since. I've already got their 5th-level spell lists worked out from an epic variant I was considering years ago but never used.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    I have no problem giving everyone full caster slots.

    Look at most half casters.
    Some of their 4th level spells are 6th level spells in full caster spell list.

    Look at partial casters.
    Some of their 6th level spells are 8th level spells in full caster spell list.

    It makes more sense to remove these "reduced spell level" spells and make everyone full casters.
    Some spell slots at the top are for metamagic, and it would be balanced.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by HouseRules View Post
    I have no problem giving everyone full caster slots.

    Look at most half casters.
    Some of their 4th level spells are 6th level spells in full caster spell list.

    Look at partial casters.
    Some of their 6th level spells are 8th level spells in full caster spell list.

    It makes more sense to remove these "reduced spell level" spells and make everyone full casters.
    Some spell slots at the top are for metamagic, and it would be balanced.
    Wow, that's a pretty major change. Have you ever actually played with that rule?

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Wow, that's a pretty major change. Have you ever actually played with that rule?
    Isn't much different from a table made of Sorcerer/AbjChamp/Eldritch Knight, Cleric/Fist of Raziel, Ardent/Slayer and Spellthief/Wizard/Unseen Seer. You're just basically upping every class to t2-3.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Isn't much different from a table made of Sorcerer/AbjChamp/Eldritch Knight, Cleric/Fist of Raziel, Ardent/Slayer and Spellthief/Wizard/Unseen Seer. You're just basically upping every class to t2-3.
    Wait, I could up their tier without changing their spell list?
    I'm only changing the spell level to remove the reduced spell level.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by HouseRules View Post
    Wait, I could up their tier without changing their spell list?
    I'm only changing the spell level to remove the reduced spell level.
    Don't they have a lot of down-leveled 6-7th-level spells already? The only things they're missing are the big guns, the game-breaking spells that don't actually get used(much) unless you're on an arms race game: Planar ally/binding, polymorph, gate, and such. You can do plenty without those. For starters, a paladin could double up on persisted buffs, of which he gets many two or three levels below others, and become pretty freaking tanky.

    And the horse would get everything as well, thus doubling the buffs.
    Last edited by MisterKaws; 2019-06-24 at 01:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    As to why they get more spells per day for that one level in particular, it's just to make their final spells per day count 3-3-3-3. Their stat block for max level looks nice and clean that way.
    You'll see similar anomalies in the progression of other classes. Following the existing wizard [and cleric and druid] spell progression up until 17th level, they should have 2 9th level spells per day at 19th level and 3 8th and 9th level per day at 20th level, but they gain a boost in their spells per day progression to give them 4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4. Sorcerers should end up with 5 9th level spells per day at 20 following their existing spell progression, but gain a small boost to give them 6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    As to why they get more spells per day for that one level in particular, it's just to make their final spells per day count 3-3-3-3. Their stat block for max level looks nice and clean that way.
    You'll see similar anomalies in the progression of other classes. Following the existing wizard [and cleric and druid] spell progression up until 17th level, they should have 2 9th level spells per day at 19th level and 3 8th and 9th level per day at 20th level, but they gain a boost in their spells per day progression to give them 4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4. Sorcerers should end up with 5 9th level spells per day at 20 following their existing spell progression, but gain a small boost to give them 6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6.
    By pattern, those full casters should gain 10th level spells, but they are converted to lower levels to fit the pattern of max 4, and getting all 4's at level 20. (Prepared Casters)
    Last edited by HouseRules; 2019-06-24 at 02:56 PM.
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    That seems like a reasonable explanation and maybe you're right, but I still think that it's more likely an aesthetic decision. It just looks nice and clean to have max spells per day for all spell levels at level 20.
    I'm not really seeing any patterns in ranger or paladin spell progression, but at a glance it looks like their spells per day for higher level spells is deliberately ramped up for that aesthetic purpose.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    That seems like a reasonable explanation and maybe you're right, but I still think that it's more likely an aesthetic decision. It just looks nice and clean to have max spells per day for all spell levels at level 20.
    I'm not really seeing any patterns in ranger or paladin spell progression, but at a glance it looks like their spells per day for higher level spells is deliberately ramped up for that aesthetic purpose.
    Bard's 5th Spell Slot for each spell level clearly follow an aesthetic decision.
    It's difficult to see any aesthetic for Paladin and Ranger spell slots.
    The All 3's is not enough to justify why the sudden jump in gaining 3 spell slots at level 19.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    As to why they get more spells per day for that one level in particular, it's just to make their final spells per day count 3-3-3-3. Their stat block for max level looks nice and clean that way.
    You'll see similar anomalies in the progression of other classes. Following the existing wizard [and cleric and druid] spell progression up until 17th level, they should have 2 9th level spells per day at 19th level and 3 8th and 9th level per day at 20th level, but they gain a boost in their spells per day progression to give them 4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4. Sorcerers should end up with 5 9th level spells per day at 20 following their existing spell progression, but gain a small boost to give them 6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6.
    I understand that they wanted them to top out at 3-3-3-3, but no other class gets a big jump like that anywhere. Clerics and Druids get between 1 and 3 more spells per day at every level, Wizards 1 or 2, and Sorcerers between 1 and 4 (not counting level 0 spells).

    Also, it's not difficult to make a progression for Paladin and Ranger which ends at all 3's but doesn't have a sudden jump like that, unless for some reason you're dead-set on them having very few spells until the last few levels then getting them all in a rush.
    Last edited by Biggus; 2019-06-25 at 06:22 PM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by HouseRules View Post
    Look at most half casters.
    Some of their 4th level spells are 6th level spells in full caster spell list.
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Don't they have a lot of down-leveled 6-7th-level spells already?
    I've had a look through the PHB and SpC and I can only find one Paladin or Ranger spell down-leveled from 6th, Aspect of the Earth Hunter. They have lots of spells which are 5th level for full casters, but not 6th or 7th.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Paladin and Ranger spells per day

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    I've had a look through the PHB and SpC and I can only find one Paladin or Ranger spell down-leveled from 6th, Aspect of the Earth Hunter. They have lots of spells which are 5th level for full casters, but not 6th or 7th.
    Indeed, I'm mistaken then. I could've sworn I saw a couple level 7 self-buff spells on the Paladin list...

    No matter. Just gotta add some spells, maybe start from Heroineus's domains.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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