Why do damaging cantrips even exist?

[ShurikVch]

Also, it may be rather minor point, but still: Ray of Frost is a Ray - thus, works with such feats as:

• Ray Burst
• Ray Coning
• Ray Extension
• Ray Focus
• Spell Specialization: Ray
• Split Ray

[flamewolf393]

[Jay R]

The straightforward answer is that these spells exist because sometimes people use them. Not often, but it can happen.

Frankly, I have no idea why any wizard has a cantrip memorized that isn't Read Magic, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Resistance, or Prestidigitation (plus Silent Image for a gnome illusionist).

But the fact remains that 1d3 damage is sometimes (rarely) useful. But all cantrips are rarely useful other than as minor effects.

There are lots of options I will never take. Other people can take them, and that's all right.

[ShurikVch]

Frankly, I have no idea why any wizard has a cantrip memorized that isn't Read Magic, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Resistance, or Prestidigitation (plus Silent Image for a gnome illusionist).

Specialist wizard's school-specific extra spell slot?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Acid splash is a great back-pocket option for hard targets if you don't have more spells to throw. A mid-level Winter Witch can power up ray of frost to deal dex damage.

[Almadelia]

Well for one, it works with Fell Drain and other metamagic spam abilities. An Easy Metamagic Fell Drain Frost Ray is a 1st level spell that drains a level, which isn't too bad.

Secondly, it's - well I mean look at the description of the actual level. Cantrips aren't even 'really' 0th level spells, they're considered a completely separate class feature in the class table and don't benefit from high ability scores. They're the equivalent of card tricks. A couple of them basically ARE card tricks, Prestidigitation is you wave your hand and the hankerchief turns orange and Mage Hand is bruh I can lift the spoon...with my MIND!!!!!!! They're really QoL features. Prestidigitation means no soggy pant legs, ever, and Light means you don't need to bother with electricity bills and Ray of Frost means you could probably make thousands in D&D simply by selling shaved ice, which historically was a rare commodity during hot summer seasons for obvious reasons.

Thirdly, in PF as others have said it's actually pretty decent as an option for a Wizard who's run out of spells, or knows that the enemy is not tough so he shouldn't waste one of his 3-4 1st level spells a day on it. Since it's infinite anyway, nothing prevents you from just preparing a single Acid Splash and filling up with Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, and Mage Hand (or whatever else you take). For games that actually do start on first level - you can easily see how 1-3 damage per round at very good chance to hit (since it's against TAC and most wizards have at least decent Dex) is not bad at all. An Orc's got 10 TAC and only 6 HP, so if a Wizard 1 has got 14 Dex then we're looking at a solid 60% chance to do 2 damage. The Orc will actually go down in five turns to this, which isn't bad once you consider that a (light) crossbow is doing 1-8 damage 45% of the time (or avg 2.025 compared to avg 1.2) takes the rest of your turn to reload, and represents a nontrivial amount of cash for a character who starts with like, 105 gp iirc. Once you factor in action economy and 'elite' Orcs wearing plate or something the value just keeps rising at very low levels. Consider a Skeletal Champion with two Bloody Skeleton by his side, a fairly generic CR 3 boss encounter for a level 1 group raiding a local haunted graveyard. A Bloody Skeleton's got 16 AC to 12 TAC and the Champion has got 21 AC to 12 TAC. Suddenly the ability to have a touch spell ready once you've fired off your Magic Missiles and your Grease got saved against is a pretty good deal. All of them have got low HP - 17, 6, 6 - so doing 1-3 damage becomes significant, especially when you probably have the single most reliable way to hit something with 21 AC in the party. It's garbage compared to the amount the Fighter can **** out, yeah, but the fighter has got +5 to hit against 21 AC and you've got +2 against 12.

So is it super useful? Not really. I'd take the more utility/flavor focused ones any time. But is it useless? No, I don't think so. Certainly can quickly become useless at higher levels, from a purely crunch perspective, but then from a purely crunch perspective most of the damage spells stop mattering at some point, even if they were decent enough at first. If I knew I was headed into a dangerous crypt at level 1, I'd probably drop Mage Hand and Light, and just load up on mundane equipment like torches, chalk, a ten foot pole with a hook tied to the end, and so on - just in case it really does come down to that clutch 3 damage at the end.

[StevenC21]

I agree that Cantrips quickly become useful once they are infinite.

But I don't play Pathfinder.

I was wondering if there was any defensible design decision for explaining why on earth they would make such bad effects... and then severely limit use. I mean come on. 6 cantrips/day? Really?

[Kurald Galain]

I was wondering if there was any defensible design decision for explaining why on earth they would make such bad effects... and then severely limit use. I mean come on. 6 cantrips/day? Really?

That's simple: it works the same as every other spellcasting ability. It's also a step forward from 2E (where casting the 1st-level spell "cantrip" would effectively give you Presto ability.

I mean... it depends.

Well, that's my point: it depends. If you claim that every sorcerer/wizard MUST have cantrips X, Y and Z at level one, then expect some disagreement.

When it comes to limited slots, I always pick new abilities over small bonuses to things I can already do. So no Detect merely to aid another (although yes, at mid-level all my casters have DM), and no light when one free hand is all it takes to bring a torch. I don't expect to find arcane scrolls every day, so I either take 20 on a spellcraft check, or cast Read Magic the next day.

Instead, I'd go for tricks like Mage Hand, Oath of Anonymity, Ghost Sound, or Message; or rarely-used life savers like Grasp.

I can think of more situations where most cantrips will be more useful than disrupt undead, simply because disrupt undead is so limited in its application.

The case for Disrupt Undead is that it's one of the best low-level counters against undead with immunities and/or DR (such as the aforementioned Skeletal Champion). So it's used less often, but makes a much bigger impact when it's actually needed. The best all-round combat cantrip is probably Daze.

[rel]

Some cantrips are just trap options. Deliberately so if some alleged statements by the designers are to be believed.

But even then, a lot of the normally sub-optimal choices are situationally useful and can be used to craft cheap wands or at will items.

Also a bunch of cantrips can be permanencied which leads to a really nice player instigated power boost at higher levels.

You're playing a wizard, you've hit level 9, you track down permanency, prepare your spells, gather enough xp and BOOM!
You can now see magic *all* the time.
No spell, no components, you just cross your eyes and squint.
And this isn't a class feature or something every wizard gets, you as a player had to find the spell prepare it, cast it, pay the costs, protect your investment.

It feels more like magic to me.
That progression is one of the things I miss when there are at-will cantrips...

[AnimeTheCat]

Well, that's my point: it depends. If you claim that every sorcerer/wizard MUST have cantrips X, Y and Z at level one, then expect some disagreement.

When it comes to limited slots, I always pick new abilities over small bonuses to things I can already do. So no Detect merely to aid another (although yes, at mid-level all my casters have DM), and no light when one free hand is all it takes to bring a torch. I don't expect to find arcane scrolls every day, so I either take 20 on a spellcraft check, or cast Read Magic the next day.

Instead, I'd go for tricks like Mage Hand, Oath of Anonymity, Ghost Sound, or Message; or rarely-used life savers like Grasp.


The case for Disrupt Undead is that it's one of the best low-level counters against undead with immunities and/or DR (such as the aforementioned Skeletal Champion). So it's used less often, but makes a much bigger impact when it's actually needed. The best all-round combat cantrip is probably Daze.

I see what you mean. And that's all fine and good. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just saying it depends. As for disrupt undead being good because it bypasses skeleton DR... so does acid splash, so does a qusrterstaff, so does a sling. All of those are also effective against non undead creatures too. I just don't see a case for disrupt undead unless you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you're going to encounter undead AND you can't find any better use for that spell slot.

[Mr Adventurer]

I am not sure that damage cantrips are often useful as quality of life effects.

Ray of Frost deals enough ice damage to knock down a grown human in one hit at least some of the time (Commoners have 1d4 hit points) - applying that to a small object like a mug is likely to damage it.

It feels like saying a flung halfling dart - a weapon of hunting and war - is a good way to pierce your ears or darn your socks.

[Elkad]

I agree that Cantrips quickly become useful once they are infinite.

But I don't play Pathfinder.

I was wondering if there was any defensible design decision for explaining why on earth they would make such bad effects... and then severely limit use. I mean come on. 6 cantrips/day? Really?

I scale the durations. So Least Wish is an hour/level. A midlevel wizard can always dry his hat, or light his pipe, or make sparkles for the children, or kill a mosquito with a tiny bolt of lightning. It cost him one 0-level slot at breakfast, when he used it to warm his slippers and honey his tea.

I also give bonus 0-level slots, at 10 in the relevant stat, so an 18 int wizard gets 2 bonus cantrips/day. So at first level he'll have 3+2(+1 in specialization school)

[Segev]

Yeah, in 3.5 and 3.0, the fact they used their own slots made them very tricky to bother using. But they still gave a little more fuel to the low-level caster.

Now, the ones that always bugged me: what would you use something like open/close for? Even when it's at-will, it never seems worth the prepared or known slot. Are there really situations where opening a door that isn't locked is even dramatic enough to be worth the slot?

[Bucky]

Open/Close defeats the Fire Trap spell, contact poison doorknobs and similar effects - I could see that being worth the cantrip slot if your GM is overly fond of those.

[Psyren]

I agree that Cantrips quickly become useful once they are infinite.

But I don't play Pathfinder.

Seriously. 3.5e or Pathfinder.

o_O

Yeah, in 3.5 and 3.0, the fact they used their own slots made them very tricky to bother using. But they still gave a little more fuel to the low-level caster.

Now, the ones that always bugged me: what would you use something like open/close for? Even when it's at-will, it never seems worth the prepared or known slot. Are there really situations where opening a door that isn't locked is even dramatic enough to be worth the slot?

Aside from "trigger some traps at range" which was mentioned, the use for a lot of these cantrips is for random roleplay benefits that are not explicitly stated in the spell. Like using Open on a door to distract someone who can't see you, or opening a window to mess up somebody's binding circle with some wind/dust. I'm sure there's a bunch of such stories out there and they remain legendary in the minds of players who used "useless" magic for some memorable effect.

Put another way, at some point in some long-ago campaign in 3.5's long history, Open/Close saved someone's character from death, guaranteed.

[Willie the Duck]

I agree that Cantrips quickly become useful once they are infinite.
But I don't play Pathfinder.
I was wondering if there was any defensible design decision for explaining why on earth they would make such bad effects... and then severely limit use. I mean come on. 6 cantrips/day? Really?

You're frustrated that you only get 6 of these things you are having trouble finding a use for?

Seriously, though- It's not entirely clear that the designers of 3.0 really knew what they wanted to do with cantrips, other than probably a place to put detect and read magic. Those previously had been extremely punitive, with a second level oD&D/AD&D 1e wizard who wanted to walk out of a dungeon with a found scroll needing to have dedicated both of their two memorized 1st level spells for the day to detect magic (to find the hidden magic treasure), and read magic (to, if it were a scroll, read it before you left the dungeon, otherwise there was a chance that it would lose its magic).

They found the concept of Cantrips, which were a late 1e (from Unearthed Arcana, which was a late-edition splatbook with a mixed reception), which were micro spells that you could memorize at 2:1 with 1st level slots (2nd edition Cantrip spell, as Kurald Galain mentions, was a full 1st level spell that rarely got used).

So they have this concept of a 0th level spell. Now they have to put something in there, so in goes light, some minor visual and auditory illusions, a micro-resistances spell... and some damage spells. The last one probably existing more because they would be notable in their absence more than any expectation that they would see regular use.

Cantrips are intended as parlor tricks, not combat spells.
3E's design predates the notion that even a low-level wizard should always cast a spell every round; later iterations of the game solve this (e.g. with 3.5's Warlock, Pathfinder's school/bloodline powers, and 4E's at-will spells that are distinct from cantrips).

Very much. As corroborating evidence, despite how relatively useless a wizard with a crossbow feels at even moderate levels, just that they decided to give them the proficiency suggest that they kind of expected the old regime of a wizard dropping game-changers 1-2x a combat, and then figuring out what to do with themselves the rest of the time was still in the mental framing.

[SirNibbles]

Caltrops is a pretty solid area control damaging cantrip even without Metamagic. With it, it can get quite potent.

[Psyren]

Cantrips are intended as parlor tricks, not combat spells.

3E's design predates the notion that even a low-level wizard should always cast a spell every round; later iterations of the game solve this (e.g. with 3.5's Warlock, Pathfinder's school/bloodline powers, and 4E's at-will spells that are distinct from cantrips).

Then 5e went full-bore in the other direction, with cantrips that scale and are fully expected to be the "filler actions" for most casters.

Starfinder meanwhile gave them guns

[Elkad]

Very much. As corroborating evidence, despite how relatively useless a wizard with a crossbow feels at even moderate levels, just that they decided to give them the proficiency suggest that they kind of expected the old regime of a wizard dropping game-changers 1-2x a combat, and then figuring out what to do with themselves the rest of the time was still in the mental framing.

And yet they took away Dart proficiency. Even a 1st level wizard got 3 shots a round. Not that they hit often, or did much damage, but at least you could pretend you were contributing. And they just felt more Wizard-like than lugging around a crossbow.

[Willie the Duck]

And yet they took away Dart proficiency. Even a 1st level wizard got 3 shots a round. Not that they hit often, or did much damage, but at least you could pretend you were contributing. And they just felt more Wizard-like than lugging around a crossbow.

Hmm. Darts had a specific meaning in AD&D 1&2e that doesn't really translate to 3e. Yes, spell disruption still occurs in 3e, but not like AD&D where the only defense was to not be targeted and/or get your spell off before your opposition's initiative. This meant that, by having dart proficiency, a mage who wasn't casting a spell was mostly as good as anyone else (and had fewer competing other things to do) at keeping the other side's casters from casting.

But regardless, you are right. Darts were more 'wizardy' although when they were introduced I'm sure they seemed pretty bizarre --'what's this nonsense? My magic user has been doing fine with only using daggers (and throwing burning oil flasks) this whole time' . And that's kind of the point. 3e was still in the era where a wizard was supposed to shoot off an occasional game-changer, and otherwise stand back and plink away with 'I'm contributing, honest' type attacks. They just kept making them more defined and more martial (until PF/4e/5e, when the decided that what the wizards should do on those off rounds was cast an infini-cantrip).

[ShurikVch]

Now, the ones that always bugged me: what would you use something like open/close for?

Open a door(/window/hatch), got LoS to whatever behind it?
And if there is something hostile which you're don't want to fight right now - you may pretend nobody is there, and door was opened by a random draft

[Vizzerdrix]

Mmmm. This has me thinking about a game concept. Players would get a D6 hd (+con bonus, of course), 16 skill points (again, plus int bonus x4), and their choice of 6 cantrips/orisons as at will spells. No feats. No actual class levels. Human would be boned a bit but something could be worked out.

Drop, say, a combination of 30 or so npcs and characters(preferably all characters) on one side of a huge island. Tell them the boat will be back to get them on the other side in 2 to 3 weeks (maybe a month?), but it can only carry ten people. Tell the players that their are hidden supplies on the island (nothing great. A few daggers, padded armor. Mostly tools and food) hidden around to promote the selection of non combat spells.

When the boat shows up, it only has room for 5 people.

It would be most interesting to see how creative people would get when all they have is 0ths and their wits to survive on.

[ottdmk]

I play an Unseen Seer (Currently CL12th, Rogue 1/Diviner 4/Unseen Seer 7) and I absolutely love Acid Splash. It's not uncommon for my guy to get a good Initiative roll, and there's something vastly amusing about doing d3+4d6 with a Cantrip.

For even more laughs I can throw in Hunter's Eye (picked up with the Unseen Seer Advanced Learning class feature) and do another 4d6 for d3+8d6.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The best use is w/ Sneak Attack, as mentioned.

Even aside from that...sometimes it's worth it just to target touch AC, rather than using a crossbow.

Vaguely related houserule note: I allow Disrupt Undead to critical hit undead, since it's only use is as a weapon against undead alone, it makes sense to me that it could crit them. Makes it more useful, although once again...much more so with sneak attack (since now you can SA undead with it).

[mabriss lethe]

If you have Heighten Spell, they can also be used as fodder for Reserve Feats if you don't have anything else that fits the bill. Not terribly useful, I know. More of a bootstrap method for a theoretical corner case, but it's there.

[CharonsHelper]

Has anyone brought up that in Pathfinder, cantrips can end up doing considerably more than d3 damage?

I had a cross-blooded sorcerer (aiming for Dragon Disciple) who did 1d3+3 electrical damage with Jolt. Still not amazing, but at low levels it was worth casting when the crazy tielfing (he swore he was a half-dragon) couldn't close to melee.

In 3.5, the best use of damaging cantrips I saw was when there was a Spellthief in the group who borrowed the sorcerer's spells. Touch attack with SA & lets him both de-buff foes & steal their spells? Yes please.

[Firebug]

Has anyone brought up that in Pathfinder, cantrips can end up doing considerably more than d3 damage?

I had a cross-blooded sorcerer (aiming for Dragon Disciple) who did 1d3+3 electrical damage with Jolt. Still not amazing, but at low levels it was worth casting when the crazy tielfing (he swore he was a half-dragon) couldn't close to melee.

Yes, in post #30 I mentioned doing ~37 average damage with Acid Splash on a single cast as a 0th level spell by level 3.
(1d3+4(Bloodlines+Brimstone+Flask) + 1d4+4(Bloodlines+Medium)*1.5 *2. Crossblooded Orc/Draconic(white)|Medium|Winter Witch, with False Focus(Brimstone, Acid Flask), holding an actual Acid Flask as a focus. Note: the wording on the Draconic Bloodline is that the spell has to have the appropriate descriptor (cold for white) but the damage type of the actual die rolled doesn't matter. Winter Witch's Frozen Caress gives the spell the Cold descriptor. Drawbacks: It does deal damage twice of 2 energy types, so Resist 5 to both Cold and Acid shut it down hard.

[MultitudeMan]

Now, the ones that always bugged me: what would you use something like open/close for? Even when it's at-will, it never seems worth the prepared or known slot. Are there really situations where opening a door that isn't locked is even dramatic enough to be worth the slot?

One possible use of open/close is related to readied actions. If you suspect that enemies with high initiative wait on the other side of a door you find while exploring, you could have your melee characters in position, with attacks readied in case of being approached, or archers with attacks readied in case of spellcasting, etc., then open the door with open/close without anyone having to be right next to it. This worked quite well sometimes in the computer version of Temple of Elemental Evil.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. sneak attack, a particularly effective use is via a generic spellcaster who can get 2d6 sneak attack at level 1. Having 4 cantrips (doing ~9 damage) + 3 first level spells (doing ~11.5 damage) means that you can be an effective blaster at level 1.

[rel]

One possible use of open/close is related to readied actions. If you suspect that enemies with high initiative wait on the other side of a door you find while exploring, you could have your melee characters in position, with attacks readied in case of being approached, or archers with attacks readied in case of spellcasting, etc., then open the door with open/close without anyone having to be right next to it. This worked quite well sometimes in the computer version of Temple of Elemental Evil.

A side note: Allowing the taking of readied actions when not in combat leads to a lot of odd situations. Especially where traps are concerned.