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Thread: Returning to 4e

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Returning to 4e

    I have decided to return to 4e d&d. However I plan on pulling some 5e into it. So I have a few questions.

    1. How accurate is the Monster Manual 3 on a business card?
    2. Are there any 4e forums that are more active than these forums?
    3. Are feats needed, to balance the game?
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2019-06-26 at 01:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    1) The 'business card' math is tighter than a ... um ... thing I probably shouldn't reference here. It's tight.

    2) Yep. I'm told that myth-weavers operates a lot more 4e games, and that enworld has more discussion. I'm slow and change-resistant, so I haven't tried 'em out.

    3a) YES

    3b) So, no, not really; if you give PCs +1 to attack and all defenses for each tier, the business-card math works fine, and that's all you really need. But why in the world would you want to take away feats? Rhetorical question, I do understand there are viable reasons. To my mind, though, customization is part of why you'd play 4e instead of 5e in the first place.

    3c) Under no circumstances should you replace feats with ASIs. OMG no.
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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    1) The 'business card' math is tighter than a ... um ... thing I probably shouldn't reference here. It's tight.

    2) Yep. I'm told that myth-weavers operates a lot more 4e games, and that enworld has more discussion. I'm slow and change-resistant, so I haven't tried 'em out.

    3a) YES

    3b) So, no, not really; if you give PCs +1 to attack and all defenses for each tier, the business-card math works fine, and that's all you really need. But why in the world would you want to take away feats? Rhetorical question, I do understand there are viable reasons. To my mind, though, customization is part of why you'd play 4e instead of 5e in the first place.

    3c) Under no circumstances should you replace feats with ASIs. OMG no.
    I’m trying to decide if I can import some of 5e bounded accuracy system. Which means I’m going to have to scrub out some/all of the small +’s. This also means magic items that have +’s will also have to be scrubbed out or reduced.

    I can use the monster manual business card to tweak the numbers on monsters to better reflect what I’m trying to do.
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2019-06-26 at 02:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfunion View Post
    I’m trying to decide if I can import some of 5e bounded accuracy system. Which means I’m going to have to scrub out some/all of the small +’s. This also means magic items that have +’s will also have to be scrubbed out or reduced.

    I can use the monster manual business card to tweak the numbers on monsters to better reflect what I’m trying to do.
    Might I recommend a look at this recent presentation of a flatter 4E power curve, which was partly inspired by 5E's bounded accuracy?

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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by tiornys View Post
    Might I recommend a look at this recent presentation of a flatter 4E power curve, which was partly inspired by 5E's bounded accuracy?
    Already looked at it.

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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfunion View Post
    I’m trying to decide if I can import some of 5e bounded accuracy system. Which means I’m going to have to scrub out some/all of the small +’s. This also means magic items that have +’s will also have to be scrubbed out or reduced.

    I can use the monster manual business card to tweak the numbers on monsters to better reflect what I’m trying to do.
    So you're going to use the "Inherent Bonuses" variant? I've heard from several people that it works very well. I don't remember where it was first put forth, but I do remember that the Dark Sun setting suggested using it. Then magic items only have the "rider" effects (flaming/crusdaer's/whatever), and you don't have to give out lots of new replacement gear, because those items imrove automatically.
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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    MM3 on a business card works if you have medium-optimized PCs who use feats.

    Feats are a huge part of what makes a high level character competent against a MM3-business-card foe.

    MM3-business-card math basically lines up with how the NV/MM3 monsters where written.

    Pre-MM3 monsters had slight tweaks. Eliminating feats there would also be a bad idea, without extensive work.

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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    So you're going to use the "Inherent Bonuses" variant? I've heard from several people that it works very well. I don't remember where it was first put forth, but I do remember that the Dark Sun setting suggested using it. Then magic items only have the "rider" effects (flaming/crusdaer's/whatever), and you don't have to give out lots of new replacement gear, because those items imrove automatically.
    Not exactly. With 4th edition the bar for an easy DC continues to rise as the players gain levels, which doesn’t make sense. You encounter a lock with a DC 15 at character level 2. If you encounter the same lock it later levels the DC shouldn’t go up to maintain its appropriate DC.
    This is the chart I will try to use to balance my numbers.

    Typical Difficulty Classes

    Task Difficulty (DC)
    Very easy (5)
    Easy (10)
    Medium (15)
    Hard (20)
    Very hard (25)
    Nearly impossible (30)

    This means proficiency progression will be slow and small, like 5th edition.

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    Part of the issue with "easy" checks is that the designers seemed to think you won't necessarily be encountering the same places as you leveled up. That is, you might spend most of Heroic in the Natural world, then say Paragon in the Feywild and Epic in the Elemental Chaos or the 9 Hells or something. So you'd be unlikely to run into the same lock, either because it wouldn't be worth a check at all or because you wouldn't be in that location or because some demon took over and upgraded all the locks. Also, in the same way as you don't need to roll a check to ride a horse (because your seasoned adventurer is presumed to have picked up that ability), presumably a lock with a Hard DC from level 1 shouldn't be worth checking at level 30, or even at level 8, if you have someone with decent lockpicking ability. Your Master Thief sneezes at the lock and it opens, voila!

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    Quote Originally Posted by masteraleph View Post
    Part of the issue with "easy" checks is that the designers seemed to think you won't necessarily be encountering the same places as you leveled up. That is, you might spend most of Heroic in the Natural world, then say Paragon in the Feywild and Epic in the Elemental Chaos or the 9 Hells or something. So you'd be unlikely to run into the same lock, either because it wouldn't be worth a check at all or because you wouldn't be in that location or because some demon took over and upgraded all the locks. Also, in the same way as you don't need to roll a check to ride a horse (because your seasoned adventurer is presumed to have picked up that ability), presumably a lock with a Hard DC from level 1 shouldn't be worth checking at level 30, or even at level 8, if you have someone with decent lockpicking ability. Your Master Thief sneezes at the lock and it opens, voila!
    That’s not what I’m trying to say. (I’m only using easy to represent changing DCs for the same category, not wither a player needs to roll) According to the 4e DC chart per character level. A level 1 easy DC is 8 while a level 11 easy DC is 13. As you can see the bar keeps rising which doesn’t make sense. By reducing the proficiency numbers I can flatten out the DCs. So the 30 level chart is reduced down to 6 simple DC.
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2019-06-27 at 02:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garfunion View Post
    That’s not what I’m trying to say. (I’m only using easy to represent changing DCs for the same category, not wither a player needs to roll) According to the 4e DC chart per character level. A level 1 easy DC is 8 while a level 11 easy DC is 13. As you can see the bar keeps rising which doesn’t make sense. By reducing the proficiency numbers I can flatten out the DCs. So the 30 level chart is reduced down to 6 simple DC.
    They're not actually the same tasks. They represent that if you want to grant PCs XP for overcoming a skill challenge, there's a certain amount of expected challenge. The PCs most certainly could run into a DC 8 challenge when they're 11th level. But as because an 11th level PC would be expected to blow past it without any difficulty, it isn't worth XP and if you're running short on time, probably not worth rolling either or maybe even describing.

    Examples:
    There is a DC 12 door to get through. Say a normal wood door that has gotten stuck somehow. At 1st level, that might represent a moderate DC, at 11th, an easy DC. It could also be DC 12 even though technically speaking, it ought to be DC 13 at 11th. We'll just add +1 to another task if we do that. At Epic, if we're there's no need to roll as normal stuck doors don't slow down actual demigods. Surely even a 21st level Wizard has some magical doodad or cantrip that will blast through it without any challenge — even a starting 8 Strength Wizard can only fail to open such a door on a 2, so there's some sort of magical fluff explanation — "I cast my Open Door cantrip at the slightly stuck door and gently push on it."

    There is a door in the way of the party intended to represent a moderate DC. At 1st level that's DC 12. At 11th, that's DC 19. The door at 1st level is a normal wood door that's gotten stuck somehow. The door at paragon is an iron-shod door that's barred from the other side. It might be appropriate as a hard check at 1st level or an easy check at 21st. But at 21st, it is a door made entirely of iron, a DC 26 check that even the strongest of adventurers would be hard pressed to open it on the first try.

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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Not the way I look at it.

    Breaking a door down
    DC 5 old rotten wooden door
    DC 10 wooden door
    DC 15 hardened wooden door
    DC 20 iron reinforced wooden door
    DC 25 iron/stone door
    DC 30 iron/stone door enchanted with magic

    I may roll a d4 and add it to the DC to add some variety.
    Skill challenges are focused more on how many successes you can get before failures. I probably use DC 15 or 20 for any skill challenges.

    So to calculate a player’s proficiency in a skill is equal to;
    Proficiency bonus + ability modifier

    Proficiency bonus=(2 +1/per 4 character lvls) max 6
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2019-06-27 at 06:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Except that, by Paragon tier, your PCs are really beyond even regular heroes. And by Epic, they’re well on their way towards god godhood. By Epic tier, a Barbarian should be kicking in a reinforced door with no problem.

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    You encounter a lock with a DC 15 at character level 2. If you encounter the same lock it later levels the DC shouldn’t go up to maintain its appropriate DC.
    You never swim in the same river twice. You never unlock the same lock twice.

    That is, an easy lock for a level 2 character is not worth mentioning to a level 5 character. Just skip it. Anything easier than "easy" isn't worth rolling dice for.

    Alternatively, every problem has a level and difficulty. "Easy level 2" is a different lock than "Easy level 10". The DM isn't supposed to rely on "Easy level 2" locks to challenge level 10 characters.
    DC 5 old rotten wooden door
    DC 10 wooden door
    DC 15 hardened wooden door
    DC 20 iron reinforced wooden door
    DC 25 iron/stone door
    DC 30 iron/stone door enchanted with magic
    Sure.

    Now, should a random peasant have a Rune-reinforced iron/stone door enchanted with magic?

    The point of the skill challenge rules in 4e is to describe something that would be a (modest) challenge to the party.

    So to calculate a player’s proficiency in a skill is equal to;
    Proficiency bonus + ability modifier

    Proficiency bonus=(2 +1/per 4 character lvls) max 6
    So instead of +5, and +Level/2 for everyone, it is +2, +level/4 only for trained.

    At level 30 that is +9, while the untrained have +0. So the gap between trained and untrained is larger.

    Someone trained with a high stat has +7 at level 1, and +14 at level 30; someone untrained with average stats has +0 at level 1 and +1 at level 30. If you permit power bonuses (+6) and item bonuses (+6) and feat bonuses (+3) the gap gets larger.

    Capping those can help.

    With 4th edition the bar for an easy DC continues to rise as the players gain levels, which doesn’t make sense. You encounter a lock with a DC 15 at character level 2. If you encounter the same lock it later levels the DC shouldn’t go up to maintain its appropriate DC.
    No, it makes perfect sense that "easy" for a demigod is harder than "easy" for a promising new wizard?

    There is a difference between "I'm building a new system" and "the old system doesn't make sense"; I'd advise you to understand the old system before replacing it. You seem to be describing a straw-man version of the 4e system, not the 4e system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    They're not actually the same tasks.
    In theory, no.

    In practice, looking at official WOTC adventures and LFR modules, often yes.

    And of course, that's where many DMs get their inspiration, consciously or not. While you're right about what the designers intended, that doesn't really help in a world where some mature dragons are a level 3 challenge and some ordinary city guards are level 15.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    In theory, no.

    In practice, looking at official WOTC adventures and LFR modules, often yes.

    And of course, that's where many DMs get their inspiration, consciously or not. While you're right about what the designers intended, that doesn't really help in a world where some mature dragons are a level 3 challenge and some ordinary city guards are level 15.
    Sure. If 4e has an absolutely horrible area, it is early adventures and structuring of tiers for LFR — that a 1st level PC and a 10th level PC could theoretically play the same adventure was just silly.

    But that's not the rules of the game. Things have static DCs for the most part as decided by the DM and then the DM picks an appropriate static choice to oppose the PCs. A 20th level Fighter should blow past a challenge designed to challenge a 1st level Fighter or you get into expertise problems. As witness the 20th level 20 Intelligence 5e Wizard having a decent chance of failure on a DC 15 check which an 8 Int, untrained Fighter can be expected to solve a good 25% of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    Things have static DCs for the most part as decided by the DM
    ...and that's not clear from the rulebooks anywhere. While most forum users will agree on it, the rulebooks can be read as implying the opposite, and many adventures outright state the opposite. That's why you people commonly conclude that "the bar for an easy DC continues to rise as the players gain levels, which doesn’t make sense."

    So the OP is quite correct to be explicit about having static DCs, and on what those DCs actually are.
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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfunion View Post
    I’m trying to decide if I can import some of 5e bounded accuracy system. Which means I’m going to have to scrub out some/all of the small +’s. This also means magic items that have +’s will also have to be scrubbed out or reduced.

    I can use the monster manual business card to tweak the numbers on monsters to better reflect what I’m trying to do.
    For a flatter power curve, just whack off all the PCs half level bonuses, and cut the monsters level scaling from full to half. All the bonuses a 4E character gets from all other sources are already scaled to fit that second half-level scaling that the monsters keep.
    Last edited by Rakaydos; 2019-07-02 at 07:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    In any case, I would personally find it fun to rebalance 4e to be feat-less (or nearly feat-less) and around a proficiency bonus like 5e, and with weaker (static) bonuses on magic items.

    The easiest way of doing it would involve writing a new "MM3 on a business card".

    You could even shoe-horn in 5e stats; stats cap at 20, you get levels where you can either get +2 to a stat (or +1 to two) or a 4e feat.

    Here is a start:
    Spoiler
    Show

    All stats have a cap of 20.

    You gain a feat at level 1.

    At level 11 and 21 you get +1 to all stats, a feat, and a +1 increase in your stat cap (so in epic, you can have a 22 in a stat).

    At level 4, 8, 14, 18, 24 and 28 you get either 2 stat points, or a feat.

    That is half as many feats, even if you never use them for stat bumps.

    Feat stat requirements are lowered by 2 for paragon/epic tier feats.

    Epic Destinies that add +2 to a stat also increase your cap by 2. (so max stat a PC can have is 24).

    You have a proficiency bonus. It is equal to +2, and increases by +1 at level 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 (reaching +8 at level 30).

    This proficiency bonus adds to your attack rolls and any skill you are proficient in (instead of the baseline +5).

    Magic item enhancement bonuses are halved (round down: so +1 heroic, +2 paragon, +3 epic). Feats that used to scale by tier (+1 to hit at heroic, +2 paragon, +3 epic) don't scale anymore; they give their lowest bonus. "Epic Will" +4 style feats are banned.

    Item bonuses from magic items are halved (round up).

    Masterwork armor is removed; optionally, replace it with superior armor that doesn't require feats.

    Accuracy Scaling is +1-2 (stat) +3 (item) +6 (proficiency) for ~+10-11 over 29 levels instead of +29.

    When wearing armor you are proficient in (or no armor), you add your proficiency bonus to your AC.

    You add your proficiency bonus to your Will Fortitude and Reflex defences always.

    So a level 1 Fighter in Scale and Shield has 21 AC. That same Fighter at level 30 in +3 plate and shield has 31 AC.

    Monster AC: 16+Level/3 (+/-2)
    Monster NAD average: 14+Level/3
    Monster ATK: 5+Level/3 (+2 vs AC)

    TODO: Monster XP curve/XP system/modified encounter building math
    TODO: Calculate damage scaling with less than half as many feats (and hence monster HP)
    TODO: Skill and Skill challenge math
    TODO: Ensure NADs/AC remain in control.


    Now, baseline 5e assumes a +4-8 swing in accuracy from level 1 to 20, and a +0 to 8 swing in AC (roughly). It assumes (to stretch the word) a +0 to +13 saving throw swing.

    So the above scales about as fast as 5e does from level 1 to 20 (about +6ish), but keeps going up to 30.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2019-07-02 at 11:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    ...and that's not clear from the rulebooks anywhere. While most forum users will agree on it, the rulebooks can be read as implying the opposite, and many adventures outright state the opposite. That's why you people commonly conclude that "the bar for an easy DC continues to rise as the players gain levels, which doesn’t make sense."

    So the OP is quite correct to be explicit about having static DCs, and on what those DCs actually are.
    You do realize we're talking about 4e and 5e, where 4e has a bunch of listed static DCs and 5e has almost none?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    You do realize we're talking about 4e and 5e, where 4e has a bunch of listed static DCs and 5e has almost none?
    Actually 5e does have a static list of DCs

    Typical Difficulty Classes

    Task Difficulty (DC)
    Very easy (5)
    Easy (10)
    Medium (15)
    Hard (20)
    Very hard (25)
    Nearly impossible (30)

    It is up to the DM to decide which DC is appropriate for the task not whether the players are a certain level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    In any case, I would personally find it fun to rebalance 4e to be feat-less (or nearly feat-less) and around a proficiency bonus like 5e, and with weaker (static) bonuses on magic items.

    The easiest way of doing it would involve writing a new "MM3 on a business card".

    You could even shoe-horn in 5e stats; stats cap at 20, you get levels where you can either get +2 to a stat (or +1 to two) or a 4e feat.

    Here is a start:
    Spoiler
    Show

    All stats have a cap of 20.

    You gain a feat at level 1.

    At level 11 and 21 you get +1 to all stats, a feat, and a +1 increase in your stat cap (so in epic, you can have a 22 in a stat).

    At level 4, 8, 14, 18, 24 and 28 you get either 2 stat points, or a feat.

    That is half as many feats, even if you never use them for stat bumps.

    Feat stat requirements are lowered by 2 for paragon/epic tier feats.

    Epic Destinies that add +2 to a stat also increase your cap by 2. (so max stat a PC can have is 24).

    You have a proficiency bonus. It is equal to +2, and increases by +1 at level 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 (reaching +8 at level 30).

    This proficiency bonus adds to your attack rolls and any skill you are proficient in (instead of the baseline +5).

    Magic item enhancement bonuses are halved (round down: so +1 heroic, +2 paragon, +3 epic). Feats that used to scale by tier (+1 to hit at heroic, +2 paragon, +3 epic) don't scale anymore; they give their lowest bonus. "Epic Will" +4 style feats are banned.

    Item bonuses from magic items are halved (round up).

    Masterwork armor is removed; optionally, replace it with superior armor that doesn't require feats.

    Accuracy Scaling is +1-2 (stat) +3 (item) +6 (proficiency) for ~+10-11 over 29 levels instead of +29.

    When wearing armor you are proficient in (or no armor), you add your proficiency bonus to your AC.

    You add your proficiency bonus to your Will Fortitude and Reflex defences always.

    So a level 1 Fighter in Scale and Shield has 21 AC. That same Fighter at level 30 in +3 plate and shield has 31 AC.

    Monster AC: 16+Level/3 (+/-2)
    Monster NAD average: 14+Level/3
    Monster ATK: 5+Level/3 (+2 vs AC)

    TODO: Monster XP curve/XP system/modified encounter building math
    TODO: Calculate damage scaling with less than half as many feats (and hence monster HP)
    TODO: Skill and Skill challenge math
    TODO: Ensure NADs/AC remain in control.


    Now, baseline 5e assumes a +4-8 swing in accuracy from level 1 to 20, and a +0 to 8 swing in AC (roughly). It assumes (to stretch the word) a +0 to +13 saving throw swing.

    So the above scales about as fast as 5e does from level 1 to 20 (about +6ish), but keeps going up to 30.
    This is interesting. I was thinking about maxing out proficiency at level 20 requiring the players to collect magic items to deal with the threats beyond level 20.
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2019-07-02 at 01:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Change PC power damage dice. A power that deals Xd6 now deals (2X-1)d6, and similar for other die sizes.

    So 3[W] powers are now 5[W] powers. That makes up for a bunch of the damage lost to lack of feats etc. It also boosts weaker powers more than stronger ones, because 4e's weakest powers where "bag o dice" powers, and the strongest ones where "hit for 1dX damage, but do it 7 times".

    ---

    Monsters are divided by tier. Most tiers have 2 monsters (1 and 2). Heroic also has H0 monsters.

    You can use "level 1-5 is H1, level 6-10 is H2" or somesuch, or flavour by your world.

    When building encounters, simply add up the XP value of the monsters (below). That will generate a difficulty number. Epic monsters should "work" in a heroic tier fight if there is budget (there usually isn't).

    Code:
         HP   ATK   AC   DEF   Damage     XP
    H0   10    6    14   12       3       1
    
    H1   20    8    16   14       6       3
    H2   50    9    18   16      10      10
    
    P1   80   11    20   18      20      25
    P2  120   12    22   20      30      50
    
    E1  200   14    24   22      40     100
    E2  300   15    26   24      60     200
    
    B1  400   17    28   26      80     350
    B2  500   18    30   28     100     500
    Add +2 to hit vs AC. Add +2 AC for Soldiers, -2 AC for Artillery and Brutes. Add +25% HP for Brutes, -25% HP for Lurkers and Artillery.

    PC XP budget:
    Heroic: 5 * 2*Level (so 7 at level 1, 25 at level 10)
    Paragon: 25 + 4*Paragon Level (so 29 at level 11, 65 at level 20), or 4*Level-15
    Epic: 65 + 8*Epic level (so 73 at level 21, 145 at level 30), or 8*Level-95

    Limited damage: +25%-50%
    AoE damage: -25%

    Elites: x2 HP, extra target on attacks for free, +2 saves, resist control, extra limited. x2 XP.

    Solo: x4 HP, extra target on attacks for free, insane numbers of limited effects, +5 saves, immune to nasty status effects, x4 XP

    Minions: Just monsters 1 tier lower.

    XP budgets are assuming reasonable levels of optimization on the part of the party.

    Beyond is for level 31-40 creatures, of which there are some. Possibly E2 would actually be enough.

    XP values where calculated from first principles and a model of PC power growth, where PCs deal ~1.5 extra points of damage per round of attacks that hit per level.

    At-budget is standard, 2x budget is a hard encounter.

    Example encounter building.

    An adult black dragon (E1, solo), a Kobold chieftan and Sorcerer (P1, elites), 15 Kobold dragonshields (H2).

    400 XP (dragon), 100 XP (elites), 150 XP (dragonshields).

    Total: 650 XP.

    For 4 players, this is an EL26 encounter.

    Encounters more than 6 levels above a party are in the deadly range.

    Can the Dragonshields contribute? They are H2 soldiers, so +9 ATK, 50 HP, 10 damage, 20 AC, 16 NADs.

    A level 26 Fighter might have 27 AC, 174 HP, +14 ATK. A squishy wizard might have 23 AC, 116 HP. With advantage the Dragonshields hit the Fighter on a 16+, so 25% hit rate, and the Wizard on a 12+, so 45% hit rate.

    The Wizard can AOE the Dragonshields; she hits on a 2. They'll drop pretty quickly. (But in this fight, they are basically fancy minions).

    If they get a round of attacks off, they'll deal 68 damage on the Wizard.

    Hmm. Uncertain if that is enough.

    Anyhow, enough crunching.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfunion View Post
    Actually 5e does have a static list of DCs

    Typical Difficulty Classes

    Task Difficulty (DC)
    Very easy (5)
    Easy (10)
    Medium (15)
    Hard (20)
    Very hard (25)
    Nearly impossible (30)
    That's not a list of static DCs. That's a list of targets if the DM wants to make a check X hard vs Y hard. In 4e, if I describe a slippery brick wall, it is by default a DC 25 check to climb it. Because the entry under Athletics in PHB tells me it is.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by MwaO View Post
    That's not a list of static DCs. That's a list of targets if the DM wants to make a check X hard vs Y hard. In 4e, if I describe a slippery brick wall, it is by default a DC 25 check to climb it. Because the entry under Athletics in PHB tells me it is.
    Yeah - that was one of the things I dislike about 5e. A big chunk of the skill system is just "Yeah - do whatever".

    I'm not saying that they needed to go into the detail that 3.x & 4e did, but they should really have given a few examples to triangulate off of. It's just too subjective for my taste.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Because this is fun, I have made another stab at it.

    The spoiler contains the design notes, math and justifications.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Monster and PC HP in 4e grows with (Level+3) roughly.

    So a level 1 monster has half the HP of a level 5 monster, and 5 has half the HP of a level 13 monster, which has half the HP of a level 29 monster.

    +1 to hit/defend is worth about +10% HP/damage. In standard D&D 4e, that dominates over HP/damage of monsters.

    Now, if we want to rework D&D 4e to be more linear (aka bounded accuracy), and we are willing to pull out MM3 on a business card on monsters, we can rework how player damage scales as well as monsters.

    To keep one thing contant, we'll go with player HP.

    Monster damage should scale, roughly, with player HP, to maintain threat. (This isn't quite true, because higher level players heal better and recover from death better, but we can retrofit that in later).

    So monster damage should scale, roughly, with Level+3, and double from 1:5, 5:13 and 13:29.

    While we are at it, we cap stats at 20 in Heroic, +1 per tier after that, and +2 if you get the epic destinies.

    A d8 weapon basic attack with 18 stat, 14 secondary deals 10.5 damage at level 1. You also get a 2[W]+stat+stat attack 1/encounter. Encounters last ~4 rounds. 1/4 encounters you get a daily attack for 3[W]+stat+stat, and 1/2 encounters an action point.

    So your per-encounter budget at level 1 is 10.5 * 4.5 + 4.5 + 9/4 = 54 damage. Call it 50.

    If we scale with your HP, we get damage budgets of:
    L1: 50
    L5: 100
    L13: 200
    L29: 400

    on a per-encounter basis.

    Under RAW, a level 29 character has a 9[W], 7[W], 6[W] and 5[W] daily, a 5[W], 4[W], 3[W]*2 encounter, and 2[W] at-wills (all +stat+stat say, and stats are +5+5).

    That is 19[W] daily extra dice, 7[W] encounter extra dice, and 4.5 * (2[W]+10) at-will dice.
    85.5+31.5+21.375 = 138.375

    You see the gap; we wanted 400 budget, and we got 400.

    If we upgrade at-wills to 3[W], and other abilities to from k[W] to (2k-1)[W], throw in a +3 enhancement damage bonus, we get:

    17[W]+13[W]+11[W]+9[W] daily, 9[W]+7[W]+5[W]*2 encounter, 3[W] at-will

    4.5*13 (static) + 4.5*3*4.5 (at-will [W]) + 14[W] encounter extra + 38[W] daily extra
    119.25 + 63 + 42.75
    =225
    That is still half of what we need.

    Ok, think outside the box. A +X weapon now doesn't add X damage, instead it lets you reroll all damage dice that are X or lower from your power or weapon (not counting max rolls).

    +X now increases your damage by X/2 per die. It can stack with Brutal.

    Dice over a 4 round fight then sum to:
    3*4.5 + 14 + 38/4 = 37. 45 static damage. 6 damage per die. 267 total damage. Still not enough.

    Add your level to one hit on your turn? That's +120 for 387 total damage, and +4 at level 1. There we go.

    ---

    Try this at level 13.

    At-wills do 2[W]. Encounter powers do 3[W] 3[W] 5[W] 5[W]. Daily powers do 5[W] 7[W] 9[W]. So you deal 2*4.5 + 8 + (3+5+7)/4 =~ 21 [W] per combat.

    With a +1 weapon (5 damage per [W]), 5 primary/3 secondary stat (4.5*8), that comes to 141 damage.

    Add your level once/round for +52 or 193 damage.

    ---

    Level 5. At-wills do [W]. Encounter powers do 3[W] 3[W]. Daily powers do 5[W] 7[W]. So you deal 1*4.5 + 4 + (4+6)/4 = 11 [W] per combat.

    With a +1 weapon (5 damage per [W]), 4 primary/3 secondary stat (4.5*7), that comes to 86.5 damage.

    Add your level once/round for +20 gives you 106.5 damage.

    ---

    So it works. Feat-less 4e now looks like:

    * Your stats are capped at 20.
    * Powers that deal XdY damage now deal (2X-1)dY damage (double dice, minus 1).
    * At-wills upgrade to 2 dice at level 11 instead of 21. At 21 they upgrade to 3 dice.
    * Once per round on your turn, you deal an extra (Level) damage to one target.
    * Magic items scale up to +3 instead of +6.
    * Magic weapons/implements do not add to damage directly. Instead, they make your damage dice "brutal".
    ** If you have a +1 weapon, reroll all weapon damage dice that are 1s until they aren't 1s.
    ** If you have a +2 weapon, reroll all weapon damage dice that are 1s or 2s until they aren't 1s or 2s.
    ** Etc for +3 weapon, or implement.
    ** Trust me, this is usually better than raw +1 damage
    * You have a Talent attribute.
    ** Level 1: +3
    ** Level 5: +4
    ** Level 13: +5
    ** Level 29: +6
    * This bonus replaces "Level/2" on attacks.
    * This bonus replaces *both* training *and* level/2 on skill checks. Untrained skills get *nothing*
    * One half this bonus applies to your Heavy Armor AC and Non-AC defences (so +1 to +3)
    ** (Half keeps up with bumps light armor characters get from higher stats)
    ** The alternative, half on light and full on heavy, makes lower level monsters never hit you

    Now lets build an XP system based off this.

    If we arrange for 5 tiers of monster like this:

    Peon: 25 HP ("below L 1 threat") +X ATK, +0 DEF
    Grunt: 50 HP ("L 1 threat") +X+3 ATK, +2 DEF
    Heroic: 100 HP ("L 5 threat") +X+6 ATK, +4 DEF
    Paragon: 200 HP ("L 13 threat") +X+9 ATK, +6 DEF
    Epic: 400 HP ("L 29 threat") +X+12 ATK, +8 DEF
    Beyond: 800 HP ("Beyond L 30 threat") +X+15 ATK, +10 DEF

    Suppose we want to start out with the even-tier L1 foe being hit 60% of the time by a PC, and hitting the tank 40% of the time (which means ~50-60% on a non-tank). That means +7 ATK and 19 AC on the monster.

    Peon: +4 ATK, 17 AC, 15 DEF
    Grunt: +7 ATK, 19 AC, 17 DEF - L1
    Heroic: +10 ATK, 21 AC, 19 DEF - L5
    Paragon: +13 ATK, 23 AC, 21 DEF - L13
    Epic: +16 ATK, 25 AC, 23 DEF - L29
    Beyond: +19 ATK, 27 AC, 25 DEF

    Sword, Scale, Shield fighter. 18 str, 20 at level 8, 22 at level 21. +1 magic item at level 2, +2 at level 11, +3 at level 21.

    Fighter Stats:
    Code:
    L1:  18 str +0 gear +10 ATK  20 AC   12.5 damage    9+ hit   13+ be hit (11+ backline) (30 4 turn damage)
    L5:  19 str +1 gear +12 ATK  22 AC   25 damage      9+ hit   12+ be hit (9+ backline)  (60 4 turn damage)
    L13: 21 str +2 gear +15 ATK  23 AC   50 damage      8+ hit   10+ be hit (7+ backline)  (130 4 turn damage)
    L29: 22 str +3 gear +18 ATK  25 AC  100 damage      7+ hit   9+ be hit  (6+ backline)  (280 4 turn damage)
    Backline Stats:
    Code:
    L1:  20 HP  17 AC, hit on 11+ (50%).  For 5 turns: 8 DPH
    L5:  40 HP  19 AC, hit on 9+  (60%).  For 5 turns: 13 DPH
    L13: 80 HP  20 AC, hit on 7+  (70%).  For 5 turns: 23 DPH
    L29: 160 HP 22 AC, hit on 6+  (75%).  For 5 turns: 43 DPH
    Peon: 15 HP 4 damage, 4 ATK, 17 AC, 15 DEF

    Based off 4 rounds to kill, and 5 rounds to kill PC, we get:
    Grunt: 30 HP 8 damage, 7 ATK, 19 AC, 17 DEF
    Heroic: 60 HP 13 damage, 10 ATK, 21 AC, 19 DEF
    Paragon: 130 HP 23 damage, 13 ATK, 23 AC, 21 DEF
    Epic: 280 HP 43 damage, 16 ATK, 25 AC, 23 DEF

    but, as we control the XP and hence encounter building, we can tweak this.

    Code:
    Peon:     10 HP,  5 damage,  4 ATK, 17 AC, 15 DEF
    Grunt:    25 HP, 10 damage,  7 ATK, 19 AC, 17 DEF
    Heroic:   50 HP, 15 damage, 10 ATK, 21 AC, 19 DEF
    Paragon: 100 HP, 25 damage, 13 ATK, 23 AC, 21 DEF
    Epic:    250 HP, 40 damage, 16 ATK, 25 AC, 23 DEF
    Beyond:  500 HP, 70 damage, 19 ATK, 27 AC, 25 DEF
    These numbers are more round.
    Code:
             HP*D   ATK+AC-21    
    Peon:      50      0        
    Grunt:    250      5
    Heroic:   750     10
    Paragon: 2500     15
    Epic:   10000     20
    Beyond  35000     25
    Each +5 ATK/AC is worth about x1.25 HP*D, give or take.

    Code:
             POW
    Peon:       50
    Grunt:     312
    Heroic:   1172
    Paragon:  4883
    Epic:    24414
    Beyond: 106811
    Now we want our XP system to be linear. That means 2 monsters of 5 XP should be as tough as 1 monster of 10 XP.

    If the 10 XP monster has 2x the HP and Damage of the 5 XP monsters, it deals 33% more damage than the one monster.

    Similarly, if a 50 XP monster deals 5x the damage and has 5x the HP of a 10 XP monster, then the 50 XP monster deals 25 units while the 10 XPs deal 15 -- 67% more for the big one. To match the 5x HP/damage monster, you need ~6.5 1x monsters.

    The 5x monster has 25x the POW, but should have 6.5x the XP. If POW(x)=kx^2, and XP(x)=a x^b, and XP(5)=6.5 XP(1)

    a 5^b = 6.5 a 1^b
    5^b = 6.5
    b =~ 1.16

    Now, (x^2)^0.58 = x^1.16, so we can take the 1.72th root of the above POW values to get a first run at XP.

    Code:
             POW     XP
    Peon:       50   9.7
    Grunt:     312   28.0
    Heroic:   1172   60.3
    Paragon:  4883  137.9
    Epic:    24414  350.6
    Beyond: 106811  825.3
    Rounding we get:

    Code:
    Peon:     1 XP
    Grunt:    3 XP
    Heroic:   6 XP
    Paragon: 14 XP
    Epic:    35 XP
    Beyond:  80 XP
    Now for budget. A full budget of even level foes against a baseline hero should die in ~80% of the time it takes to kill the hero.

    We can work out the POW at each 2x HP point.
    Code:
          HP   DAM  ATK  AC  HP*D  ATK+AC-21   POW       XP
    L1:   20  12.5  10   17   250   6          327        3
    L5:   40  25    12   19  1000  10          1563       7
    L13:  80  50    15   20  4000  14          7472      18
    L29: 160  100   18   22 16000  19          37358     45
    We can then linearize.

    Heroic Budget: Level +2 XP.
    Paragon and Epic Budget: Level*2-8 XP.

    That lines up with the above points, except at L 29 where it gives them a 50 XP budget. Epic characters can take it.

    TL;DR, I have attempted to emulate 5e power curve in 4e again. Here is the result:

    Monster business card math:

    There are 5 tiers of monsters. Each tier bump is a significant power swing. Use Grunt/Peon for low-Heroic foes or to replace Minions. Use Heroic for mid-high Heroic foes, Paragon for Paragon, Epic for Epic, and Beyond for L30+ foes.

    Code:
             XP       HP           Dam        ATK     DEF
                   L   M   H    L   M   H
    Peon:     1    8  10  12    4   5   6     +4      15
    Grunt:    3   20  25  30    8  10  12     +7      17
    Heroic:   6   40  50  60   12  15  18     +10     19
    Paragon: 14   80 100 120   20  25  30     +13     21
    Epic:    35  200 250 300   30  40  50     +15     23
    Beyond:  80  400 500 600   50  70  90     +19     25
    DEF is average of Will/Reflex/Fort.

    Use +2 AC above DEF for most monsters. Soldiers get +4, Brutes/Artillery +0.

    Brutes use High HP, High Damage. Artillery/Lurkers use Low HP.
    AOEs use Low damage. Encounter powers use High-next tier Medium damage.

    Elites have 2x HP, +2 to saving throws, some anti-CC ability, and get an extra target "for free" on attacks. They are worth 2x XP.

    Solos have 4x HP, +5 to saving throws, insane anti-CC abilities, and should have lots of AOE abilities and encounter powers. They are worth 4x XP.

    Player changes:
    Feats are optional. You can strip them. Humans gain +2 to one stat, and +1 to all other stats, if you strip them of their feat.

    You have a Talent of +3 at level 1. This increases by 1 at level 5, 13 and 29; so max of +6, min of +3.

    You add your Talent when you make an attack, or use a trained skill. You add half your talent (round down) to your F/R/W defences, and your AC in heavy armor.

    Stats are capped at 20 in Heroic, 21 in Paragon and 22 in Epic. Epic destinies that add +2 to a stat also increase the cap by 2.

    At level 4, 8, 14, 18, 24, 28 you can choose to gain +1 to two stats, or gain a feat.

    At level 11 and 21, you gain +1 to all stats (the same time as your cap increases).

    Humans gain a bonus feat at level 1. Nobody else gains a feat at level 1.

    At-wills gain a damage die at level 11 instead of 21, and a second damage die at level 21.

    Other powers, double the number of dice of damage they deal, then subtract 1. So a 5[W] power now deals 9[W].

    Once per round on your turn, you can deal extra damage equal to your character level when using a power to one target.

    Feats that grant "scaling bonuses" to F/R/W/ATK/etc only grant their minimium bonus. The three Epic-tier +4 F/R/W feats are banned.

    Item changes:
    Magic enhancement scales up to +3 instead of +6 (at +1 per tier, instead of +2).

    Magic weapons and implements, instead of adding +enhance damage, make attacks with them brutal. A +1 weapon lets you reroll all 1s from the damage dice of the attacks; a +3 lets you reroll 1s, 2s and 3s.

    Item bonuses from items are halved, round down.

    You can attune up to 3 items. Common items do not require attunement; uncommon, rare and legendary ones do.

    Encounter building:
    XP budgets for a Heroic character is Level+2. For a Paragon and above character, it is Level*2-8.

    It takes 10x your budget to gain a level (if not using milestones).

    Using Peons against Epic tier characters is ill-advised. If you can fit the budget, using higher-tier monsters should work against low-tier players.

    Naturally this only matters if you care that encounters are defeatable and/or a threat.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2019-07-04 at 10:16 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2016

    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Because this is fun, I have made another stab at it.

    The spoiler contains the design notes, math and justifications.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Monster and PC HP in 4e grows with (Level+3) roughly.

    So a level 1 monster has half the HP of a level 5 monster, and 5 has half the HP of a level 13 monster, which has half the HP of a level 29 monster.

    +1 to hit/defend is worth about +10% HP/damage. In standard D&D 4e, that dominates over HP/damage of monsters.

    Now, if we want to rework D&D 4e to be more linear (aka bounded accuracy), and we are willing to pull out MM3 on a business card on monsters, we can rework how player damage scales as well as monsters.

    To keep one thing contant, we'll go with player HP.

    Monster damage should scale, roughly, with player HP, to maintain threat. (This isn't quite true, because higher level players heal better and recover from death better, but we can retrofit that in later).

    So monster damage should scale, roughly, with Level+3, and double from 1:5, 5:13 and 13:29.

    While we are at it, we cap stats at 20 in Heroic, +1 per tier after that, and +2 if you get the epic destinies.

    A d8 weapon basic attack with 18 stat, 14 secondary deals 10.5 damage at level 1. You also get a 2[W]+stat+stat attack 1/encounter. Encounters last ~4 rounds. 1/4 encounters you get a daily attack for 3[W]+stat+stat, and 1/2 encounters an action point.

    So your per-encounter budget at level 1 is 10.5 * 4.5 + 4.5 + 9/4 = 54 damage. Call it 50.

    If we scale with your HP, we get damage budgets of:
    L1: 50
    L5: 100
    L13: 200
    L29: 400

    on a per-encounter basis.

    Under RAW, a level 29 character has a 9[W], 7[W], 6[W] and 5[W] daily, a 5[W], 4[W], 3[W]*2 encounter, and 2[W] at-wills (all +stat+stat say, and stats are +5+5).

    That is 19[W] daily extra dice, 7[W] encounter extra dice, and 4.5 * (2[W]+10) at-will dice.
    85.5+31.5+21.375 = 138.375

    You see the gap; we wanted 400 budget, and we got 400.

    If we upgrade at-wills to 3[W], and other abilities to from k[W] to (2k-1)[W], throw in a +3 enhancement damage bonus, we get:

    17[W]+13[W]+11[W]+9[W] daily, 9[W]+7[W]+5[W]*2 encounter, 3[W] at-will

    4.5*13 (static) + 4.5*3*4.5 (at-will [W]) + 14[W] encounter extra + 38[W] daily extra
    119.25 + 63 + 42.75
    =225
    That is still half of what we need.

    Ok, think outside the box. A +X weapon now doesn't add X damage, instead it lets you reroll all damage dice that are X or lower from your power or weapon (not counting max rolls).

    +X now increases your damage by X/2 per die. It can stack with Brutal.

    Dice over a 4 round fight then sum to:
    3*4.5 + 14 + 38/4 = 37. 45 static damage. 6 damage per die. 267 total damage. Still not enough.

    Add your level to one hit on your turn? That's +120 for 387 total damage, and +4 at level 1. There we go.

    ---

    Try this at level 13.

    At-wills do 2[W]. Encounter powers do 3[W] 3[W] 5[W] 5[W]. Daily powers do 5[W] 7[W] 9[W]. So you deal 2*4.5 + 8 + (3+5+7)/4 =~ 21 [W] per combat.

    With a +1 weapon (5 damage per [W]), 5 primary/3 secondary stat (4.5*8), that comes to 141 damage.

    Add your level once/round for +52 or 193 damage.

    ---

    Level 5. At-wills do [W]. Encounter powers do 3[W] 3[W]. Daily powers do 5[W] 7[W]. So you deal 1*4.5 + 4 + (4+6)/4 = 11 [W] per combat.

    With a +1 weapon (5 damage per [W]), 4 primary/3 secondary stat (4.5*7), that comes to 86.5 damage.

    Add your level once/round for +20 gives you 106.5 damage.

    ---

    So it works. Feat-less 4e now looks like:

    * Your stats are capped at 20.
    * Powers that deal XdY damage now deal (2X-1)dY damage (double dice, minus 1).
    * At-wills upgrade to 2 dice at level 11 instead of 21. At 21 they upgrade to 3 dice.
    * Once per round on your turn, you deal an extra (Level) damage to one target.
    * Magic items scale up to +3 instead of +6.
    * Magic weapons/implements do not add to damage directly. Instead, they make your damage dice "brutal".
    ** If you have a +1 weapon, reroll all weapon damage dice that are 1s until they aren't 1s.
    ** If you have a +2 weapon, reroll all weapon damage dice that are 1s or 2s until they aren't 1s or 2s.
    ** Etc for +3 weapon, or implement.
    ** Trust me, this is usually better than raw +1 damage
    * You have a Talent attribute.
    ** Level 1: +3
    ** Level 5: +4
    ** Level 13: +5
    ** Level 29: +6
    * This bonus replaces "Level/2" on attacks.
    * This bonus replaces *both* training *and* level/2 on skill checks. Untrained skills get *nothing*
    * One half this bonus applies to your Heavy Armor AC and Non-AC defences (so +1 to +3)
    ** (Half keeps up with bumps light armor characters get from higher stats)
    ** The alternative, half on light and full on heavy, makes lower level monsters never hit you

    Now lets build an XP system based off this.

    If we arrange for 5 tiers of monster like this:

    Peon: 25 HP ("below L 1 threat") +X ATK, +0 DEF
    Grunt: 50 HP ("L 1 threat") +X+3 ATK, +2 DEF
    Heroic: 100 HP ("L 5 threat") +X+6 ATK, +4 DEF
    Paragon: 200 HP ("L 13 threat") +X+9 ATK, +6 DEF
    Epic: 400 HP ("L 29 threat") +X+12 ATK, +8 DEF
    Beyond: 800 HP ("Beyond L 30 threat") +X+15 ATK, +10 DEF

    Suppose we want to start out with the even-tier L1 foe being hit 60% of the time by a PC, and hitting the tank 40% of the time (which means ~50-60% on a non-tank). That means +7 ATK and 19 AC on the monster.

    Peon: +4 ATK, 17 AC, 15 DEF
    Grunt: +7 ATK, 19 AC, 17 DEF - L1
    Heroic: +10 ATK, 21 AC, 19 DEF - L5
    Paragon: +13 ATK, 23 AC, 21 DEF - L13
    Epic: +16 ATK, 25 AC, 23 DEF - L29
    Beyond: +19 ATK, 27 AC, 25 DEF

    Sword, Scale, Shield fighter. 18 str, 20 at level 8, 22 at level 21. +1 magic item at level 2, +2 at level 11, +3 at level 21.

    Fighter Stats:
    Code:
    L1:  18 str +0 gear +10 ATK  20 AC   12.5 damage    9+ hit   13+ be hit (11+ backline) (30 4 turn damage)
    L5:  19 str +1 gear +12 ATK  22 AC   25 damage      9+ hit   12+ be hit (9+ backline)  (60 4 turn damage)
    L13: 21 str +2 gear +15 ATK  23 AC   50 damage      8+ hit   10+ be hit (7+ backline)  (130 4 turn damage)
    L29: 22 str +3 gear +18 ATK  25 AC  100 damage      7+ hit   9+ be hit  (6+ backline)  (280 4 turn damage)
    Backline Stats:
    Code:
    L1:  20 HP  17 AC, hit on 11+ (50%).  For 5 turns: 8 DPH
    L5:  40 HP  19 AC, hit on 9+  (60%).  For 5 turns: 13 DPH
    L13: 80 HP  20 AC, hit on 7+  (70%).  For 5 turns: 23 DPH
    L29: 160 HP 22 AC, hit on 6+  (75%).  For 5 turns: 43 DPH
    Peon: 15 HP 4 damage, 4 ATK, 17 AC, 15 DEF

    Based off 4 rounds to kill, and 5 rounds to kill PC, we get:
    Grunt: 30 HP 8 damage, 7 ATK, 19 AC, 17 DEF
    Heroic: 60 HP 13 damage, 10 ATK, 21 AC, 19 DEF
    Paragon: 130 HP 23 damage, 13 ATK, 23 AC, 21 DEF
    Epic: 280 HP 43 damage, 16 ATK, 25 AC, 23 DEF

    but, as we control the XP and hence encounter building, we can tweak this.

    Code:
    Peon:     10 HP,  5 damage,  4 ATK, 17 AC, 15 DEF
    Grunt:    25 HP, 10 damage,  7 ATK, 19 AC, 17 DEF
    Heroic:   50 HP, 15 damage, 10 ATK, 21 AC, 19 DEF
    Paragon: 100 HP, 25 damage, 13 ATK, 23 AC, 21 DEF
    Epic:    250 HP, 40 damage, 16 ATK, 25 AC, 23 DEF
    Beyond:  500 HP, 70 damage, 19 ATK, 27 AC, 25 DEF
    These numbers are more round.
    Code:
             HP*D   ATK+AC-21    
    Peon:      50      0        
    Grunt:    250      5
    Heroic:   750     10
    Paragon: 2500     15
    Epic:   10000     20
    Beyond  35000     25
    Each +5 ATK/AC is worth about x1.25 HP*D, give or take.

    Code:
             POW
    Peon:       50
    Grunt:     312
    Heroic:   1172
    Paragon:  4883
    Epic:    24414
    Beyond: 106811
    Now we want our XP system to be linear. That means 2 monsters of 5 XP should be as tough as 1 monster of 10 XP.

    If the 10 XP monster has 2x the HP and Damage of the 5 XP monsters, it deals 33% more damage than the one monster.

    Similarly, if a 50 XP monster deals 5x the damage and has 5x the HP of a 10 XP monster, then the 50 XP monster deals 25 units while the 10 XPs deal 15 -- 67% more for the big one. To match the 5x HP/damage monster, you need ~6.5 1x monsters.

    The 5x monster has 25x the POW, but should have 6.5x the XP. If POW(x)=kx^2, and XP(x)=a x^b, and XP(5)=6.5 XP(1)

    a 5^b = 6.5 a 1^b
    5^b = 6.5
    b =~ 1.16

    Now, (x^2)^0.58 = x^1.16, so we can take the 1.72th root of the above POW values to get a first run at XP.

    Code:
             POW     XP
    Peon:       50   9.7
    Grunt:     312   28.0
    Heroic:   1172   60.3
    Paragon:  4883  137.9
    Epic:    24414  350.6
    Beyond: 106811  825.3
    Rounding we get:

    Code:
    Peon:     1 XP
    Grunt:    3 XP
    Heroic:   6 XP
    Paragon: 14 XP
    Epic:    35 XP
    Beyond:  80 XP
    Now for budget. A full budget of even level foes against a baseline hero should die in ~80% of the time it takes to kill the hero.

    We can work out the POW at each 2x HP point.
    Code:
          HP   DAM  ATK  AC  HP*D  ATK+AC-21   POW       XP
    L1:   20  12.5  10   17   250   6          327        3
    L5:   40  25    12   19  1000  10          1563       7
    L13:  80  50    15   20  4000  14          7472      18
    L29: 160  100   18   22 16000  19          37358     45
    We can then linearize.

    Heroic Budget: Level +2 XP.
    Paragon and Epic Budget: Level*2-8 XP.

    That lines up with the above points, except at L 29 where it gives them a 50 XP budget. Epic characters can take it.

    TL;DR, I have attempted to emulate 5e power curve in 4e again. Here is the result:

    Monster business card math:

    There are 5 tiers of monsters. Each tier bump is a significant power swing. Use Grunt/Peon for low-Heroic foes or to replace Minions. Use Heroic for mid-high Heroic foes, Paragon for Paragon, Epic for Epic, and Beyond for L30+ foes.

    Code:
             XP       HP           Dam        ATK     DEF
                   L   M   H    L   M   H
    Peon:     1    8  10  12    4   5   6     +4      15
    Grunt:    3   20  25  30    8  10  12     +7      17
    Heroic:   6   40  50  60   12  15  18     +10     19
    Paragon: 14   80 100 120   20  25  30     +13     21
    Epic:    35  200 250 300   30  40  50     +15     23
    Beyond:  80  400 500 600   50  70  90     +19     25
    DEF is average of Will/Reflex/Fort.

    Use +2 AC above DEF for most monsters. Soldiers get +4, Brutes/Artillery +0.

    Brutes use High HP, High Damage. Artillery/Lurkers use Low HP.
    AOEs use Low damage. Encounter powers use High-next tier Medium damage.

    Elites have 2x HP, +2 to saving throws, some anti-CC ability, and get an extra target "for free" on attacks. They are worth 2x XP.

    Solos have 4x HP, +5 to saving throws, insane anti-CC abilities, and should have lots of AOE abilities and encounter powers. They are worth 4x XP.

    Player changes:
    Feats are optional. You can strip them. Humans gain +2 to one stat, and +1 to all other stats, if you strip them of their feat.

    You have a Talent of +3 at level 1. This increases by 1 at level 5, 13 and 29; so max of +6, min of +3.

    You add your Talent when you make an attack, or use a trained skill. You add half your talent (round down) to your F/R/W defences, and your AC in heavy armor.

    Stats are capped at 20 in Heroic, 21 in Paragon and 22 in Epic. Epic destinies that add +2 to a stat also increase the cap by 2.

    At level 4, 8, 14, 18, 24, 28 you can choose to gain +1 to two stats, or gain a feat.

    At level 11 and 21, you gain +1 to all stats (the same time as your cap increases).

    Humans gain a bonus feat at level 1. Nobody else gains a feat at level 1.

    At-wills gain a damage die at level 11 instead of 21, and a second damage die at level 21.

    Other powers, double the number of dice of damage they deal, then subtract 1. So a 5[W] power now deals 9[W].

    Once per round on your turn, you can deal extra damage equal to your character level when using a power to one target.

    Feats that grant "scaling bonuses" to F/R/W/ATK/etc only grant their minimium bonus. The three Epic-tier +4 F/R/W feats are banned.

    Item changes:
    Magic enhancement scales up to +3 instead of +6 (at +1 per tier, instead of +2).

    Magic weapons and implements, instead of adding +enhance damage, make attacks with them brutal. A +1 weapon lets you reroll all 1s from the damage dice of the attacks; a +3 lets you reroll 1s, 2s and 3s.

    Item bonuses from items are halved, round down.

    You can attune up to 3 items. Common items do not require attunement; uncommon, rare and legendary ones do.

    Encounter building:
    XP budgets for a Heroic character is Level+2. For a Paragon and above character, it is Level*2-8.

    It takes 10x your budget to gain a level (if not using milestones).

    Using Peons against Epic tier characters is ill-advised. If you can fit the budget, using higher-tier monsters should work against low-tier players.

    Naturally this only matters if you care that encounters are defeatable and/or a threat.
    Thank you for this. I can now begin my rewrite of the players handbook and monster manual.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Returning to 4e

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    ...and that's not clear from the rulebooks anywhere. While most forum users will agree on it, the rulebooks can be read as implying the opposite, and many adventures outright state the opposite. That's why you people commonly conclude that "the bar for an easy DC continues to rise as the players gain levels, which doesn’t make sense."

    So the OP is quite correct to be explicit about having static DCs, and on what those DCs actually are.
    Interestingly, there is a list of static DCs for breaking down doors, in the Rules Compendium and I think the DMG as well.

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