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    Default Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

    Welcome to the 24 annual MTG thread! Here we talk about the mechanics of the card game, deck building, playing, etc. If you want to talk about MTG color philosophy you can do so here.

    On Card Spoilers: Currently as far as I understand most posters here don't mind having the next set of cards spoiled. So we can post them. However if someone request cards to be spoiled we will probably oblige them.

    If you want, you can post decks and have them placed here in a list similar to the one below! Shoot me a PM if you're interested and I don't have my Ivory Mask.

    Note: This is horribly out of date These are from time immemorial.
    The Deck Gallery:
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    Mirrinus' "Norg'
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    Creatures:
    4 Cloud Sprite
    4 Spellstutter Sprite
    4 Pestermite
    3 Thieving Sprite
    3 Latchkey Faerie
    4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
    2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi

    Instants:
    4 Mana Leak
    4 Agony Warp
    3 Rend Flesh
    2 Condescend

    Lands:
    4 Terramorphic Expanse
    7 Swamp
    12 Island

    Sideboard:
    2 Mistblade Shinobi
    3 Echoing Truth
    3 Negate
    3 Remove Soul
    4 Peppersmoke

    The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.



    Mirrinus' Pauper Mono White Control
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    Deck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
    Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

    Creatures
    4 Order of Leitbur
    3 Shade of Trokair
    4 Noble Templar

    Instants
    4 Judge Unworthy
    3 Dawn Charm
    3 Holy Light
    4 Fire at Will
    4 Unmake

    Sorceries
    1 Cenn's Enlistment

    Enchantments
    4 Oblivion Ring
    2 Faith's Fetters

    Lands
    20 Plains
    4 Secluded Steppe

    Sideboard
    4 Circle of Protection: Red
    1 Circle of Protection: Black
    4 Kami of Ancient Law
    1 Holy Light
    1 Cenn's Enlistment
    4 Relic of Progenitus

    (Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

    Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

    What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

    I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.


    Mirrinus' Countersliver
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    Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
    Format: Extended Pauper

    Creatures:
    4 Azorius First-wing
    4 Bant Sureblade
    4 Deft Duelist
    4 Ethercaste Knight
    4 Esper Stormblade

    Artifacts:
    4 Fieldmist Borderpost

    Enchantments:
    4 Temporal Isolation

    Instants:
    4 Mana Tithe
    4 Mana Leak
    3 Remove Soul
    3 Hindering Light

    Lands:
    4 Terramorphic Expanse
    7 Island
    7 Plains

    Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver as its flagship creature.

    Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

    Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

    The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

    If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead. Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander.


    Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control
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    Creatures (13)
    4x Divinity of Pride
    4x Graveborn Muse
    2x Shimian Specter
    3x Oriss, Samite Guardian

    Artifacts (1)
    1x Sword of Light and Shadow

    Instants (4)
    4x Mortify

    Planeswalkers (2)
    2x Liliana Vess

    Sorceries (16)
    4x Demonic Tutor
    4x Vindicate (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings until I can afford a playset)
    4x Gerrard's Verdict
    2x Wrath of God
    2x Damnation

    Land (24)
    4x Godless Shrine
    4x Fetid Heath
    4x Caves of Koilos
    1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
    1x Eiganjo Castle
    2x Orzhova, Church of Deals
    3x Flagstones of Trokair
    2x Forbidding Watchtower
    2x Swamp
    1x Plains

    To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

    Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is.


    MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:
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    Creatures:
    Supreme Exemplar x2
    Mulldrifter x3
    Mournwhelk x3
    Shriekmaw x3
    Spitebellows x3
    Inner-Flame Acolyte x3
    Stingscourger x3

    Artifacts:
    Proteus Staff x3
    Cauldron of Souls x3
    Cloudstone Curio x3
    Armillary Sphere x3

    Sorceries:
    Heat Shimmer x2

    Instants:
    Peel from Reality x2
    Turn to Mist x4

    Lands:
    Basic Swamp x6
    Basic Mountain x7
    Basic Island x7

    Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
    Thrumming Stone
    Coalition Relic
    Cruel Ultimatum x3
    River Kelpie x2
    Heat Shimmer
    Mana Echoes x2
    Dawn of the Dead
    Tar Fiend x2
    Footbottom Feast x3

    The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

    The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

    Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

    Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it leaves play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

    The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

    Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

    This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

    The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be terribly worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them.


    Maho-Tsukai's The Black Plague, a deck for multiplayer
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    Deck:
    Lands:
    3x Cabal Coffers
    1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    20x Swamp

    Creatures:
    2x Pestilence Demon
    4x Stuffy Doll
    4x Cemetary Gate
    4x Reassembling Skeleton

    Enchantments:
    4x Pestilence
    4x Circle of Affliction

    Sorceries/Instants:
    2x Consume Spirit
    4x Diabolic Tutor
    1x Demonic Tutor
    2x Bubbling Muck
    4x Dark Ritual
    1x Culling the Weak

    Description:
    This is one deck that will make you absolutely hated in multiplayer. It's a mono-black deck that focuses on using the combination of Pestilence + Circle of Affliction (set to Black) to lock down the game by wiping the board every turn and kill your opponent(s) all at the same time.

    This deck acts very similar to the old school W/B decks that pared Pestilence with Circle of Protection: Black and Pro Black creatures like White Knight. However, due to the printing of cards like Reassembling Skeleton, Stuffy Doll and Circle of Affliction white this deck no longer needs white to run properly. Mono Black now has enough cards to emulate the white cards that this kind of deck used to rely on and by using only black you have more mana to pour into your main win condition, pestilence

    As for how the deck should be played, it's really a combination of combo and control, leaning heavily towards combo. As stated before, pestilence is your main wincon, as it can burn all players for damage continually. However, to prevent your own death, circle of affliction(set to black) is used in tandem with pestilence, the one life gained offsetting the burn from pestilence, while burning your opponent more in the process. As a result you goal should be to assemble this combo as soon as possible, using your defensively-minded creatures and removal from pestilence itself and twin consume spirits to stall out while you use your various tutors to assemble all the cards you need.

    The real beauty of this deck, though, is that pestilence also hits all creatures, meaning that each time you burn your opponent your also wiping his board clean of threats, essentially locking down any deck that tries to win with creatures. However, pestilence dies when you have no creatures, so you have to play creatures that can survive the enchantment. Cemetery Gate has protection from black. Reassembling Skeleton can revive himself after pestilence wipes him off the board. Stuffy Doll is indestructible....and as mentioned before all of them are strong defensive walls that can stall for time if you don't have a pestilence in play.

    As for the rest of the cards, most of them are devoted to gaining tons of black mana that can be poured into pestilence. One thing this deck tries to do is maximizing Pestilence by providing lots of ways to gain extra mana to pour into it. Dark Ritual is an old standby that's great for this kind of deck while bubbling muck essentially doubles your mana for a turn. This deck features the infamous all-star of black mana gain, Cabal Coffers which can make ridiculous amounts of mana, and Urborg makes this even more ridiculous. Culling the Weak is like a stronger dark ritual with a drawback....that happens to play well with Reassembling Skeleton.

    Consume Spirit provides a "finisher" as well as a way to pad your life from the times you may have had to use pestilence to wipe the board without a circle of affliction to prevent it's self-burn. It can also double as removal in a pinch, too. Also, if you find that you just need something really big and scary to beat face with, Pestilence demon comes ready to serve you, and can double as pestilence #5-6 too.

    The main thing you should remember in this deck is that while the combo is nice, you should not be a slave to it. If you have a pestilence in play but no circle you should not be afraid to wipe the board and eat some damage yourself. Losing a bit of life to end the thread of a creature hoard coming your way is a worthwhile trade, and one that could save your life in the long run.


    Please include lots of info on how to play the deck so that others can partake in the fun that is whatever deck you have destroyed the Multiverse with or help suggest other cards to increase the awesomeness contained in your 60 (or more) cards.
    This list has been maintained by Squark, tgva, Johnny Blade, Shas, and Duos in the past.
    Also, if anyone wants to drop/update any of these decks, let me know.

    Prior MTG Threads (WIP):


    previous thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ng-Live-Modern
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-07-01 at 09:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Someone else made the new thread? Iím actually shocked
    "Three blokes walk into a pub. One of them is a little bit stupid, and the whole scene unfolds with a tedious inevitability." - Bill Bailey
    Androgeus' 3 step guide to Doctor Who speculation:
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    1. Pick a random character
    2. State that person is The Rani
    3. goto 1

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Androgeus View Post
    Someone else made the new thread? Iím actually shocked
    I am here to terrify and amaze!

    Anyone else watching the new Orzhov Superfriends deck in modern? It seems grindy as heck, and has rest in peace for the proliferation of graveyard decks.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    From what I've seen of the graveyard decks in Modern, Rest in Peace might be too slow to be relevant graveyard hate. You really need Surgical Extraction or Tormod's Crypt these days; Nihil Spellbomb might work, but even Relic of Progenitus is too slow in some games now that Hogaak has hit the scene.

    That said I'm down for a deck with main deck Rest in Peace. I used to have a fun deck that used Rest in Peace with Misthollow Griffin and Eternal Scourge to have infinite threats.
    Thanks to araveugnitsuga for my Pika-tar!
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Can confirm. Rest in Peace is simply not fast enough. If you're on Orzhov anyway, Leyline of the Void is really where it's at. You basically need to be dedicating 6+ slots to graveyards right now for it to be relevant, so 4 leylines goes a long way to stopping the degeneracy.

    I actually played in the SCG Pittsburgh event this weekend, and our team was running Hogaak while I was on Storm. Both of us routinely beat decks that ran Rest in Peace and Relic of Progenitus throughout the tournament. I personally went X-2, whereas our team was doing decidedly worse than that, and the 2 losses I took were to Leyline of the Void, following a decent (turn 6 or so) clock.

    Really though, the big takeaway is that you can't just play Rest in Peace like it's going to lock your opponent out of the game, because it simply doesn't. Hogaak in particular just expects to bring in ~6 pieces of naturalize effects post-board to beat the graveyard hate. You have to follow up your graveyard hate with a reasonable clock, whether that's a tarmogoyf or a Gideon. If you allow a deck that's expecting graveyard hate to have too much time, they will beat your disruption.
    Avatar courtesy of Ceika.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    This is what i'm currently usi9ng in arena: https://deckstats.net/decks/135871/1341617-teysa-deck

    If i had to critique it myself i'd really point at basilica bell haunt as the most dead card in terms of it doing anything good for me. the 3rd copies of Okerta and Teysa sometime produce awkward games, but i don't feel i have enough card draw or filtering to reliably get ethier out on 2 copies and they're 2 of the 3, (arguably 4), win conditions the decks. Ethereal Absolution being the other big one and just flyer token generation coupled with removal/control and Seraph of the Scales being the 4th albeit weakest one.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Thing is, do you want to go Aristocrats aka kill the enemy with Cruel Celebrant Triggers? Or do you want to go token generation?

    Because the latter can use Glass of the Guild Pact and Ethereal Absolution, the former needs premium cards (Tithe Taker, Bontu, Sorin, Revival//Revenge), and would you mind dipping into red (if you have Judith that is)?
    Last edited by Spore; 2019-07-01 at 03:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    The previous magic threads spoiler is missing XVII
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
    I'm gonna be against the flow here and say outlined.

    What? Everyone else are against the flow too, okay?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    In the grim statistics of the far future, there is only math.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    Most Hilarious Murderer in the Playground. Both his episodes of hysterically ending my life left me chuckling even hours later when I thought about them.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    The previous magic threads spoiler is missing XVII
    It doesn't exist, a previous poster accidentally skipped it. The threads go XVI to XVIII.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    It doesn't exist, a previous poster accidentally skipped it. The threads go XVI to XVIII.
    Okay.
    You also missed XX, which does exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cizak View Post
    I'm gonna be against the flow here and say outlined.

    What? Everyone else are against the flow too, okay?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    In the grim statistics of the far future, there is only math.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kneenibble View Post
    Most Hilarious Murderer in the Playground. Both his episodes of hysterically ending my life left me chuckling even hours later when I thought about them.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    Thing is, do you want to go Aristocrats aka kill the enemy with Cruel Celebrant Triggers? Or do you want to go token generation?

    Because the latter can use Glass of the Guild Pact and Ethereal Absolution, the former needs premium cards (Tithe Taker, Bontu, Sorin, Revival//Revenge), and would you mind dipping into red (if you have Judith that is)?
    Neither and both. One of the things i've picked up really hard and fast is you never build your deck so that any one card, (or worse a combo of cards), is your only real way of winning the game. if you do that and either your draws hate you or any one of several counters are brought by your opponent you hard lose before you even draw your starting hand because your win condition won't/can't happen and that leaves your opponent with complete control of the game and most likely the win. Whilst it's not necessarily a bad idea to focus one way you never want to be relying on a single card for your win condition. That why i've got a combo of Afterlife+Teysa, Okerta, and Absolution in there any one of them pressures the opponent and can win me the game in combination with some control, but if one of them falls flat i can fall back on the others, and the control gives me short or long term stall options depending on my needs. Celebrant is more of a side pressure piece though if the game goes long enough or my starting draws are good enough it can be a win condition on it's own, (just had 2 games where double celebrant in opening hand won me the game in combo with other cards).

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Neither and both. One of the things i've picked up really hard and fast is you never build your deck so that any one card, (or worse a combo of cards), is your only real way of winning the game. if you do that and either your draws hate you or any one of several counters are brought by your opponent you hard lose before you even draw your starting hand because your win condition won't/can't happen and that leaves your opponent with complete control of the game and most likely the win. Whilst it's not necessarily a bad idea to focus one way you never want to be relying on a single card for your win condition. That why i've got a combo of Afterlife+Teysa, Okerta, and Absolution in there any one of them pressures the opponent and can win me the game in combination with some control, but if one of them falls flat i can fall back on the others, and the control gives me short or long term stall options depending on my needs. Celebrant is more of a side pressure piece though if the game goes long enough or my starting draws are good enough it can be a win condition on it's own, (just had 2 games where double celebrant in opening hand won me the game in combo with other cards).
    Yeah, but you also need a degree of consistency and sinergy. Going for a variety of game plans can thin them all so much neither is reasonably achievable.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    This is what i'm currently usi9ng in arena: https://deckstats.net/decks/135871/1341617-teysa-deck

    If i had to critique it myself i'd really point at basilica bell haunt as the most dead card in terms of it doing anything good for me. the 3rd copies of Okerta and Teysa sometime produce awkward games, but i don't feel i have enough card draw or filtering to reliably get ethier out on 2 copies and they're 2 of the 3, (arguably 4), win conditions the decks. Ethereal Absolution being the other big one and just flyer token generation coupled with removal/control and Seraph of the Scales being the 4th albeit weakest one.
    The biggest things I noticed is your top end seems kind of high, and I think there is better removal available. I think something like this would be better. The removal is better, you have more creatures and your curve is a little lower.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    Yeah, but you also need a degree of consistency and sinergy. Going for a variety of game plans can thin them all so much neither is reasonably achievable.
    Oh absolutely, but generally i find the deck transitions between various win conditions quite well, which isn#t to say i don't think there's some issues and actually TvTyrant has made a point or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The biggest things I noticed is your top end seems kind of high, and I think there is better removal available. I think something like this would be better. The removal is better, you have more creatures and your curve is a little lower.
    My main concern are the loss of Absolution and to a much lesser degree Luminous bonds, (Pacifism rotates back in, in a few hours so i can swap bonds for that anyway). Absolution plays a key long term role in the deck because if the games drags out you can quickly reach the situation where teysa backed mass celebrants is the only win condition. It works when it's available, but if it isn't the whole deck can fail. Okerta can help, but she's not allways reliable. Absolution lets you have a more long term win condition. -1/-1 to everything for the opponent and +1/+1 to everything for you is far more powerful than it appears at first blush. Tghat said Citywide bust should have gotten put in honestly and plaugcrafters absolutely one i've been thinking about putting in.

    Actually let me go through every card in the deck and cover my thoughts a bit.

    Bladebrand: This was a revision or two in addition in an attempt to provide some removal that also got me some card draw as i was running into issues, but the deck's got revised a few times since then and thats made it much less valuable, in particular the recent swap of bell haunt for priestess of forgotten gods has given me options when i can get enough creatures for her to work with that make it much less valuable than it once was. Killing flyers with the deathtouch is it's last remaining niche and it's definitely one i could stand to remove.

    Consecrate/consume This was one i added very early on that i happened to have many copies of lying around. it sort of stuck around because in a pinch i could use it to exile awkward cards and/or get card draw plus the bypassing of indestructible and the life gain where valuable side niches. I'm still a little hesitant at the idea of losing lifegain. but honestly citywide bust probably fills the same sort of niche with a bit more broad power and i'm not feeling the desperate need for card draw anywhere near as often.

    Ethereal Absolution: I originally added this just to combo with the afterlife tokens, but honestly this is a card that any white/black mix deck should be playing. In fact if you can find a way to bypass the mana specific cost parts somehow it's one you really should be including in any deck with any usable creature count. Though thats sufficiently non-trivial as not to be a serious proposition much of the time. it's power really surprised me and it's won me at least as many games as simple token spam plus seraph alone has.

    Luminous Bonds. Another early addition it's mostly stuck around because of it's value vs god eternals, big creatures from decks that can easily get them back, and other shenanigans where locking the target down on the board is more valuable than taking it off the board. Given pacifism is returning i see little reason not to swap that back in tough and save my mana.

    Cruel Celebrant: Actually a mid level addition, it's only a win condition under specific circumstances normally but it can do a lot of weakening and it makes opponents hesitate about doing things they otherwise would with hard removal. They also draw out a fair amount of removal on their own. They only rarely win games on their own but they make opponents hesitate and can provide the final few point of damage (or life for me), to clutch a game out and generally complicate my opponent's life. basically they win me games by getting my opponents to do things or use things they wouldn't otherwise do.

    God-Eternal Okerta: actually a very early addition when i was looking for bulk and had her left over from a white/green build. She's still valuable for the 6 toughness and ability to just keep coming back, (the token generation is nice but not as valuable as you'd think unless the ame drags really badly), but i'd agree she's one of the weaker parts of the composition at this point. Her main use more often than not is to draw aggro or give thought erasure a difficult choice. Actually the latter is somthing the deck as a whole excels at rarely can your opponent attack you or your strategy without hurting themselves at least a little along the way. Arguably Bontu might fill the same hole better but i've only really started to recently appreciate the latter's power.

    Imperious Oligarchy. An early source of damage, death triggers and afterlife. Oddly one of the weaker cards in the deck, not because she's bad but because her true power only really comes when you get the right support lined up behind her and your rarely going to get that. if you do it's GG. Despite that the deck has a need for cheap creatures with at least a couple of power and getting that with afterlife tacked on is fundamentally not a bad deal. Not every card at this mana curve point needs to eb a game winner, if it annoys and complicates your opponents lives and draws any ire they may have early it's done it's job.

    Orzhov Enforcer: A token generator, (again complicaites your opponent's life because they don't necessarily want to kill it), that also pulls double duty as a defensive form of creature destruction. That tends to mean it also survives longer than oligarchy which makes it's afterlife trigger more likely to synergise with the rest of the deck.

    Priestess of the Forgotten Gods: A recent addition but fills a number of use cases, biggest issue is i could do with a few more cheap creatures for her to work with, but whe she does she can sac things to trigger effects, take life from an opponent and provide soft removal plus ramp.

    Seraph of the Scales: A mid term addition after seeing it but one of the strongest combo's with Teysa as she brings a bulkier body than enforcers, cna fly, hits harder, has higher afterlife and cna still gain deathtouch. Can win games, directly, provide defensive removal and again is something your opponent often doesn't want to kill, especially if Teysa or Absolution are on the field.

    Teysa: Actually the starting point for the deck but far from completely vital to the decks performance at the same time she really does enhance every aspect of it as she makes your afterlife and celebrant triggers anstier and lifelink plus vigilance on tokens means you can sue lifegain to stall out your own life total whilst hurting the enemy whilst still having blockers available, (and if you have celebrant those blockers will first gain you life from lifelink, then die and gain you more life from celebrant while hurting your opponent, and absolution naturally lets them block kill bigger stuff and deal more damage and gain more via lifelink).

    As i mentioned above the real strength of the deck is the way it keeps giving your opponent bad and worse options to choose between whilst having a variety of options to go with, there's no single point of failure they can go after reliably in most cases, (massacre girl is probably the hardest counter).


    That said citywide bust, pacifism, and swapping out blade brand are definitely on my radar and i do want to see if i can tweak some stuff elsewhere, i'm also interested what you think of bontu instead of okerta?

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Pacifism isn't good in constructed, and you definitely don't want to be playing it when you play Plaguecrafter, as that is a nonbo.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    I only play Commander and maybe Oathbreaker soon.

    I just bought Ezuri's Predation for my druid deck. A nice upgrade! Can win the game on the spot. And changing Sylvok Explorer for Leafkin Druid. Much better for my deck as it can make it quicker as a mono-green deck. Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is my commander and its my straightforward, meanest deck LOL

    Is aggro-swarm a viable strategy in Oathbreaker? I was thinking of a combo of Nissa, Steward of Elements with Invigorate
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Pacifism isn't good in constructed, and you definitely don't want to be playing it when you play Plaguecrafter, as that is a nonbo.

    Good point on the plaguecrafter. And arena is mainly either standard or block constructed for some events. Their will be a historic mode but it definitely isn't going back any further than Amonkhet.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Good point on the plaguecrafter. And arena is mainly either standard or block constructed for some events. Their will be a historic mode but it definitely isn't going back any further than Amonkhet.
    Standard and block constructed are, as the name of the latter would suggest, constructed formats.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Standard and block constructed are, as the name of the latter would suggest, constructed formats.
    Um i'm, really not sure then why your saying pacifism is bad then, i assumed you where talking about how older cards could interact with it... Though i actually spotted Eternal Isolation whilst opening my pre-order packs and that does what i want as well without any of the downsides of an enchantment.

    As an aside i replace bladebrand with Tithe Taker, and Consecrate/Consume with Spark Harvest, (it's a bit more flexible within the context of the deck than cast down).

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Hello again, I had another idea for a card but this time instead of focusing on balance I am trying to think of a good name.

    The idea of the card is that it would a somewhat low costed black/blue creature with megamorph. It would have some sort of ability that would protect it and turn it face down at the same time. Maybe just "Turn ~ face down, regenerate". Or something else based on regenerate. In any case the idea is a resilient threat that keeps growing.

    But I can't think of a good name for it. I was thinking it would be a Horror or a Nightmare which I didn't know was a creature type just now. And given that Nightmare is a subtype I don't want to use it in the name... Maybe just call it Phantasmal Killer and be done with the idea.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    Um i'm, really not sure then why your saying pacifism is bad then, i assumed you where talking about how older cards could interact with it...
    Because it doesn't remove the creature. If the creature has any kind of relevant abilities just from sticking around, those are still in effect.

    Though i actually spotted Eternal Isolation whilst opening my pre-order packs and that does what i want as well without any of the downsides of an enchantment.
    I don't know standard well enough to know if Eternal Isolation is playable or not, but it seems more like a sideboard card to me. There are enough decks that play no creatures with toughness over 4, where it will just be a dead card. You don't want that.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Grytorm View Post
    Hello again, I had another idea for a card but this time instead of focusing on balance I am trying to think of a good name.

    The idea of the card is that it would a somewhat low costed black/blue creature with megamorph. It would have some sort of ability that would protect it and turn it face down at the same time. Maybe just "Turn ~ face down, regenerate". Or something else based on regenerate. In any case the idea is a resilient threat that keeps growing.

    But I can't think of a good name for it. I was thinking it would be a Horror or a Nightmare which I didn't know was a creature type just now. And given that Nightmare is a subtype I don't want to use it in the name... Maybe just call it Phantasmal Killer and be done with the idea.
    Growing Terror? Gnawing Fear? Reaming Sreggith? Looming Disaster? Unshakeable Dread? Living Phobia?

    Instead of regenerate, could be 'if ~ would leave the battlefield, instead turn it face down'. There's a lot of exile and bounce effects that take the punch out of most recurring threats.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Because it doesn't remove the creature. If the creature has any kind of relevant abilities just from sticking around, those are still in effect.


    I don't know standard well enough to know if Eternal Isolation is playable or not, but it seems more like a sideboard card to me. There are enough decks that play no creatures with toughness over 4, where it will just be a dead card. You don't want that.
    Sure but you by and large can't remove god eternals or some of the creatures in more recursion based decks. The god eternals are particularly nasty as even traditional white exile effects don't kill them. Forcing an opponent to discard them is the only way to make sure they stay dead (and then only if they can't get them out of their graveyard somehow).

    The thing is the main random play in arena is best of 1 so your sideboard just doesn't matter. I totally agree in formats that support it, it would be a sideboard card, but a general play deck needs to be a bit more flexible than that.

    Since you mentioned not being sure about the current standard environment it's worth pointing out that the nature of Arena means cards that would normally be relatively rare in random play are quite a bit more common as the wildcards system means you have to open a lot fewer boosters to get multiple copies of a specific desired card. So cards that would normally trade for far more than many players could afford, (or justify), are a lot more common. Thats also affects your deck design to a degree in ways that probably make many cards far moe of a "i need to be able to cope with this" than you'd normally expect.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Among non- or semi-obscure constructed formats, of those which allow both Karn Liberated and duplicates, which one has the highest minimum card-count?
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    I have a VERY hard time resisting throwing out almost all of my wildcards for exotic day 1 brews with 12+ M20 cards in it.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Grytorm View Post
    Hello again, I had another idea for a card but this time instead of focusing on balance I am trying to think of a good name.

    The idea of the card is that it would a somewhat low costed black/blue creature with megamorph. It would have some sort of ability that would protect it and turn it face down at the same time. Maybe just "Turn ~ face down, regenerate". Or something else based on regenerate. In any case the idea is a resilient threat that keeps growing.

    But I can't think of a good name for it. I was thinking it would be a Horror or a Nightmare which I didn't know was a creature type just now. And given that Nightmare is a subtype I don't want to use it in the name... Maybe just call it Phantasmal Killer and be done with the idea.
    ey just so you know i setup an entire thread for this kind of thing here:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ard-Designs-II

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Is it just me or does Arena's new Mastery system do...very little for FTP players (that have already passed the NPE stage). I mean the free card styles might be fun but otherwise it's the old weekly wins packs, just rearranged. Assuming there's exactly 12 weeks between sets; I'm not that familiar with MTG's set release schedule.
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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    Is it just me or does Arena's new Mastery system do...very little for FTP players (that have already passed the NPE stage). I mean the free card styles might be fun but otherwise it's the old weekly wins packs, just rearranged. Assuming there's exactly 12 weeks between sets; I'm not that familiar with MTG's set release schedule.
    The schedule is super specific so yeah, that seems reasonable.

    I haven't actually gotten to try out the mastery system though. I'll take a look at it, but since I was in the alpha I don't think I actually "get" to use it, since I'm already past that level?


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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The schedule is super specific so yeah, that seems reasonable.

    I haven't actually gotten to try out the mastery system though. I'll take a look at it, but since I was in the alpha I don't think I actually "get" to use it, since I'm already past that level?
    As of core 20 there's a seperate mastery system associated with each set that sticks around while it's out. And yeah they said in blogs for FTP it's basically a replacement for the existing weekly rewards with some card styles thrown in, though you do lose the daily ICR's, but you had to win so many games for those it's no biggie IMO.

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    Default Re: Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chand

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah View Post
    Is it just me or does Arena's new Mastery system do...very little for FTP players (that have already passed the NPE stage). I mean the free card styles might be fun but otherwise it's the old weekly wins packs, just rearranged. Assuming there's exactly 12 weeks between sets; I'm not that familiar with MTG's set release schedule.
    FTP players can get the premium "battle pass", even though it costs gems - you can get gems from playing draft, paying gold to enter. But yes, if you don't get that then it's a close equivalent to the old weekly wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl View Post
    As of core 20 there's a seperate mastery system associated with each set that sticks around while it's out. And yeah they said in blogs for FTP it's basically a replacement for the existing weekly rewards with some card styles thrown in, though you do lose the daily ICR's, but you had to win so many games for those it's no biggie IMO.
    Daily ICRs are still there. The big difference from before is the battle pass extras, which is an excellent deal provided that you play often enough to get a high level before the next set.
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