Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

[Eurus]

Just in standard white has Cavalier of Dawn and Conclave Tribunal. Technically it also has Ravnica at War.
But green should probably have a Bramblecrush effect in standard.

Lack of answers to planeswalkers is a general problem, but it is increased manyfold by the immense amount of design mistakes that went into Oko.

Those are versatile removals, but you're still hitting the problem of playing a 1-for-1 answer (or something sorta close to it, Cavalier is a weird case) that quite possibly costs more mana than the thing you're answering, and they also got some kind of immediate value out of their walker. Even Bramblecrush would have that problem.

[Techwarrior]

People can do as a huge portion of meta decks: splash black for the sweet discarding cards(if the opponent discard their planeswalkers they are way less likely to play them) and also for some of the best removals.

If your solution to "there aren't enough answers in every color" to walkers is "play black,' you're missing the fundamental issue at hand.

[Ninjaman]

Those are versatile removals, but you're still hitting the problem of playing a 1-for-1 answer (or something sorta close to it, Cavalier is a weird case) that quite possibly costs more mana than the thing you're answering, and they also got some kind of immediate value out of their walker. Even Bramblecrush would have that problem.

But that's a larger problem when the walkers are too good.

[noob]

If your solution to "there aren't enough answers in every color" to walkers is "play black,' you're missing the fundamental issue at hand.

Wizard of the coast quite intentionally gave a lot of stuff made to help polychromatic decks up to the point that using 5 colors does not seems entirely wrong.
It is true that there could be answers in more colors.
That or they could have made planeswalkers count as enchantments instead of creating an entire new targeting type.

[Spore]

Wizard of the coast quite intentionally gave a lot of stuff made to help polychromatic decks up to the point that using 5 colors does not seems entirely wrong.
It is true that there could be answers in more colors.

So while conceding the point, your first answer is "why not play ALL the colors"? I feel this is just ignoring the opportunity cost.

Oko is a card that functions in the game, and there are answers to it. But there are disproportionate few for it. Also I need to iterate that.

THE CARD IS NOT THE PROBLEM. THE TEMPO ADVANTAGE THAT COMES WITH IT IS.

[Silfir]

So while conceding the point, your first answer is "why not play ALL the colors"? I feel this is just ignoring the opportunity cost.

Oko is a card that functions in the game, and there are answers to it. But there are disproportionate few for it. Also I need to iterate that.

THE CARD IS NOT THE PROBLEM. THE TEMPO ADVANTAGE THAT COMES WITH IT IS.

But... Isn't the tempo advantage a function of the card's CMC? I imagine Oko would be much less dominant in the metagame if he cost four mana instead of three.

[Amechra]

That or they could have made planeswalkers count as enchantments instead of creating an entire new targeting type.

That would be just as bad, if not worse - two whole colors have "can't deal with Enchantments¹" as a drawback, and Blue's enchantment removal is tempo-based. If Planeswalkers kept the same amount of value, it would basically force you to play Wx or Gx if you actually wanted to be competitive.

¹ Am I the only one who wants them to re-examine this? White and Green are kinda hogging the whole "removal" thing. And no, "Green has to use creatures to remove creatures!" doesn't count as a limitation, especially since Green's thing is having more efficient creatures.

[Androgeus]

Am I the only one who wants them to re-examine this?

They have haven’t they? They are experimenting with enchantment removal in black. It’s only Mire in Misery at the moment though.

[noob]

That would be just as bad, if not worse - two whole colors have "can't deal with Enchantments¹" as a drawback, and Blue's enchantment removal is tempo-based. If Planeswalkers kept the same amount of value, it would basically force you to play Wx or Gx if you actually wanted to be competitive.

¹ Am I the only one who wants them to re-examine this? White and Green are kinda hogging the whole "removal" thing. And no, "Green has to use creatures to remove creatures!" doesn't count as a limitation, especially since Green's thing is having more efficient creatures.

And yet there is more ways to get rid of enchantments than ways to get rid of planeswalkers.
If planeswalkers could be targeted as both planeswalkers and enchantments I would not see a problem.

[Ninjaman]

And yet there is more ways to get rid of enchantments than ways to get rid of planeswalkers.
If planeswalkers could be targeted as both planeswalkers and enchantments I would not see a problem.

Are you sure about that?
Do you know of burn spells?
Do you know of creatures?

[Douglas]

From this article, a WotC representative said on Twitch livestream that they intentionally designed Oko to be a strong card, but not as strong as it turned out to be - they underestimated how strong his +1 is as a removal ability. I guess they were thinking more about turning your own food tokens into elks?

[Fable Wright]

From this article, a WotC representative said on Twitch livestream that they intentionally designed Oko to be a strong card, but not as strong as it turned out to be - they underestimated how strong his +1 is as a removal ability. I guess they were thinking more about turning your own food tokens into elks?

I just have to wonder what the developer metagame was like for them to miss that. Did no one play any artifacts or creatures bigger than 3/3? No Golden Goose? The mind boggles.

[Eurus]

And... the lore of the card... is him turning people into elks maliciously...

[Tvtyrant]

To be fair I misdiagnosed it too. Pongify doesn't see play, why would it be broken on a planeswalkers?

When I design custom walkers I usually go "+1 is a cmc0-1 spell, -1 is a Cmc 1-2 spell, ultimate is a cmc 4-5 spell" so it checked out.

[LansXero]

To be fair I misdiagnosed it too. Pongify doesn't see play, why would it be broken on a planeswalkers?

When I design custom walkers I usually go "+1 is a cmc0-1 spell, -1 is a Cmc 1-2 spell, ultimate is a cmc 4-5 spell" so it checked out.

Those are horrible design guidelines. +1: Fatal Push, -1 goryo's vengeance is super balanced

[Tvtyrant]

Those are horrible design guidelines. +1: Fatal Push, -1 goryo's vengeance is super balanced

That is why I have 0-1. +1 is a bad/common 0 to 1 mana spell, -1 is a good 1 mana spell to a bad 2 mana spell.

Easy example:
Vent, Goblin Mine Boss 2RB
+1 target creature gains +1 and gains menace until end of turn.
-1 sacrifice a goblin, put 2 1/1 goblin tolens into play.
-6 untap your creatures and take a second combat phase.
4 loyalty

A bad example would be:
Walter, the One that Knocks 3BB
+1 Search your library for a creature card and put it in your graveyard. Shuffle your library.
-2 each player puts a creature card from their graveyard onto the battlefield.
-7 Each player exiles all creature cards from their graveyard, then sacrifices all creatures they control, then puts all cards they exiled this way onto the battlefield.

[LaZodiac]

Those are horrible design guidelines. +1: Fatal Push, -1 goryo's vengeance is super balanced

The implication was that they're balanced to BE 1 cmc worthy. It'd probably be better to say +1: common effect, -1: uncommon effect.

Also to be honest a planeswalker focused around luck who has Fatal Push as an ability would probably actually be cool.

[Tvtyrant]

The implication was that they're balanced to BE 1 cmc worthy. It'd probably be better to say +1: common effect, -1: uncommon effect.

Also to be honest a planeswalker focused around luck who has Fatal Push as an ability would probably actually be cool.

Yes, this. I worded it badly.

[LaZodiac]

A bad example would be:
Walter, the One that Knocks 3BB
+1 Search your library for a creature card and put it in your graveyard. Shuffle your library.
-2 each player puts a creature card from their graveyard onto the battlefield.
-7 Each player exiles all creature cards from their graveyard, then sacrifices all creatures they control, then puts all cards they exiled this way onto the battlefield.

This has nothing to do with anything but I designed a creature card from Amonkhet that was inspired by Walter White, building his own personalized Eternal's in the aftermath of the Hours, and I will show it to you after I get home from work. Because Same Hat principles demand I do so.

[Tvtyrant]

This has nothing to do with anything but I designed a creature card from Amonkhet that was inspired by Walter White, building his own personalized Eternal's in the aftermath of the Hours, and I will show it to you after I get home from work. Because Same Hat principles demand I do so.

That has everything to do with everything lol.

I would be honored!

[LansXero]

The implication was that they're balanced to BE 1 cmc worthy. It'd probably be better to say +1: common effect, -1: uncommon effect.

Also to be honest a planeswalker focused around luck who has Fatal Push as an ability would probably actually be cool.

Oko gives you elks and is broken, so having -13/-13 after cracking a fetch as a plus ability would be beyond broken XD. Also, its a horrible design guideline because it doesnt take into account that plus abilities allow you to dodge burn / combat, and are free repeatable once-a-turn effects. Boomerang is a pretty mediocre spell, but even as a minus ability its on the most broken PW of all times.

[Androgeus]

Do you know of burn spells?

To be fair Oko can go to 6 the turn he comes in. This is far more than burn deck can be dish out on turns 2 - 4. I wonder how much worse Oko would be if he started at 3 loyalty, so Fry could kill him even if he made food

[LaZodiac]

That has everything to do with everything lol.

I would be honored!

Heizen, Eternal Crafter 2BB
Legendary Creature - Human Artificer
Whenever you would create a token, instead create a 4/4 black Zombie creature token.
Creature tokens you control have menace.
2/2
Sky Blue. The colour of life...and death.

and pre Hours...

Heizen, Vizer of Planning 2WW
Legendary Creature - Human Artificer
Creature tokens you control have vigilance
WW, T: Creature tokens you control get +2+2 until end of turn.
2/2
"Remember. What we do is for family."

Oko gives you elks and is broken, so having -13/-13 after cracking a fetch as a plus ability would be beyond broken XD. Also, its a horrible design guideline because it doesnt take into account that plus abilities allow you to dodge burn / combat, and are free repeatable once-a-turn effects. Boomerang is a pretty mediocre spell, but even as a minus ability its on the most broken PW of all times.

I should clarify that Fatal Push Walker would NOT have it as his Plus, obviously

[Mystic Muse]

Oko gives you elks and is broken, so having -13/-13 after cracking a fetch as a plus ability would be beyond broken XD. Also, its a horrible design guideline because it doesnt take into account that plus abilities allow you to dodge burn / combat, and are free repeatable once-a-turn effects. Boomerang is a pretty mediocre spell, but even as a minus ability its on the most broken PW of all times.

[B]

I should clarify that Fatal Push Walker would NOT have it as his Plus, obviously

I feel obligated to point out, the -13/-13 spell is tragic slip, not fatal push, and it only gives -13/-13 if a creature died. Morbid and revolt are very different mechanics.

[Tvtyrant]

Removal, like card draw, is tricky on planeswalkers. If the +1 was fatal push plus discard a card it would be roughly the same as fatal push. Jace the Mindy Guy gets away with bouncing a creature because it is advantage neutral in stead of positive.

Heizen, Eternal Crafter 2BB
Legendary Creature - Human Artificer
Whenever you would create a token, instead create a 4/4 black Zombie creature token.
Creature tokens you control have menace.
2/2
Sky Blue. The colour of life...and death.

and pre Hours...

Heizen, Vizer of Planning 2WW
Legendary Creature - Human Artificer
Creature tokens you control have vigilance
WW, T: Creature tokens you control get +2+2 until end of turn.
2/2
"Remember. What we do is for family."

Very Walter. Creating Meth Zombies is right up his alley.

[LaZodiac]

I feel obligated to point out, the -13/-13 spell is tragic slip, not fatal push, and it only gives -13/-13 if a creature died. Morbid and revolt are very different mechanics.

... oops.

Well that's egg on my face XP

[LansXero]

Removal, like card draw, is tricky on planeswalkers. If the +1 was fatal push plus discard a card it would be roughly the same as fatal push. Jace the Mindy Guy gets away with bouncing a creature because it is advantage neutral in stead of positive.
.

Back in the day, the boomerang was what people complained about the most, as PWs having a way to defend themselves was seen as problematic. Sure, the CA was insane, but it also having an inmediate effect on the board as soon as he landed was just a bit too much.

Also, it wouldnt be the same. Unlike Fatal Push / Tragic Slip that can only ever discard themselves, that +1 has so many ways to play around to make the discard a benefit. Its probably a black walker already, so you have reanimation enabling, madness enabling, dredge, # of creatures in GY, etc. Because, unlike a spell, its not once-and-done and then you have to draw another, its a permanent that will do it again next turn, and again, and again, and keeps getting larger while killing enemy stuff.

[Amechra]

I'll be honest, I love it when they make Planeswalkers without +s. Because then they have a sell-by date unless you get tricksy with them.

[Tvtyrant]

Back in the day, the boomerang was what people complained about the most, as PWs having a way to defend themselves was seen as problematic. Sure, the CA was insane, but it also having an inmediate effect on the board as soon as he landed was just a bit too much.

Also, it wouldnt be the same. Unlike Fatal Push / Tragic Slip that can only ever discard themselves, that +1 has so many ways to play around to make the discard a benefit. Its probably a black walker already, so you have reanimation enabling, madness enabling, dredge, # of creatures in GY, etc. Because, unlike a spell, its not once-and-done and then you have to draw another, its a permanent that will do it again next turn, and again, and again, and keeps getting larger while killing enemy stuff.

None of those decks wants a clunky three-four mana discard effect. Dredge and reanimator got hurt bad by the loss of faithless looting because they want to go off fast, unless you are making a 1-2 mana planeswalker they aren't going to want that card. Madness and grindy midrange is the area where it would be good, and I still don't think it would be degenerate.

[LansXero]

None of those decks wants a clunky three-four mana discard effect. Dredge and reanimator got hurt bad by the loss of faithless looting because they want to go off fast, unless you are making a 1-2 mana planeswalker they aren't going to want that card. Madness and grindy midrange is the area where it would be good, and I still don't think it would be degenerate.

You do realize its tied to a removal for every discard right? +1: discard is nothing, of course.