Magic the Gathering Thread XXIV: *Slaps Roof* This Thread Can Hold So Many Chandras!

[LaZodiac]

Like everyone shacking up? Because that usually happens after a war, seems pretty reasonable.

Yeah. We get some (not described but mentioned) full frontal Ral Zarek nudity to tempt his boyfriend away from work to relax, and we get a chapter dedicated to the (soft, not explicit) sex of Vraska and Jace where she consents to him using his mind magic to allow them to share their emotional and physical connection so they can both feel everything. Which, it occurs to me, given Vraska is touch averse as hell is probably her first go of it.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah. We get some (not described but mentioned) full frontal Ral Zarek nudity to tempt his boyfriend away from work to relax, and we get a chapter dedicated to the (soft, not explicit) sex of Vraska and Jace where she consents to him using his mind magic to allow them to share their emotional and physical connection so they can both feel everything. Which, it occurs to me, given Vraska is touch averse as hell is probably her first go of it.

Now we know which couples end up with dead members or broken up. Thanks Wizards!

[LaZodiac]

Now we know which couples end up with dead members or broken up. Thanks Wizards!

Okay so I've finished the book and... no. But;

Due to Vraska kind of... not really being good at redemption and focusing more on the guild, Jace kind of realizes Vraska might be using him as a morality pet, and that things are probably not going to last, but he wants to see it through and see if he can actually affect some change. They end the book on a rocky relationship in Jace's mind, but otherwise good.

Ral and Tomik are actually doing pretty well, but Ral feels ****ty since Tezzeret beat his ass pretty bad and now Tomik's the guildmaster of the Orzhov (with Teysa backing) so things are a little strained.

Chandra and Nissa...

I'm at work so I don't have time to go through it all. But there's a lot to go over here. I felt the writing for this was beautiful, and really well done, and really sad.

I also hate it with every single last fiber of my being. Suffice to say they shoot that down entirely, and shoot it down in a "oh they aren't bi at all" way that I'm just... I'm just not here for. It soured things a LOT, and since I don't actually like Zendikar that much it's killed a lot of my interest in that set coming down the line. It even sort of negatively affected my feelings on the other aspects of the ending, which were really good but also kinda... alright. The only person who actually dies of any real note is Dovin Baan.

In the summery the book had really, really good moments, but also WOTC are cowards.

[Tvtyrant]

Okay so I've finished the book and... no. But;

Due to Vraska kind of... not really being good at redemption and focusing more on the guild, Jace kind of realizes Vraska might be using him as a morality pet, and that things are probably not going to last, but he wants to see it through and see if he can actually affect some change. They end the book on a rocky relationship in Jace's mind, but otherwise good.

Ral and Tomik are actually doing pretty well, but Ral feels ****ty since Tezzeret beat his ass pretty bad and now Tomik's the guildmaster of the Orzhov (with Teysa backing) so things are a little strained.

Chandra and Nissa...

I'm at work so I don't have time to go through it all. But there's a lot to go over here. I felt the writing for this was beautiful, and really well done, and really sad.

I also hate it with every single last fiber of my being. Suffice to say they shoot that down entirely, and shoot it down in a "oh they aren't bi at all" way that I'm just... I'm just not here for. It soured things a LOT, and since I don't actually like Zendikar that much it's killed a lot of my interest in that set coming down the line. It even sort of negatively affected my feelings on the other aspects of the ending, which were really good but also kinda... alright. The only person who actually dies of any real note is Dovin Baan.

In the summery the book had really, really good moments, but also WOTC are cowards.

Wait, they decided Chandra isn't into Nissa? I can totally see the other way being true, she often treats her like a kid sister, but Chandra is so into her it hurts to read sometimes.

[LaZodiac]

Wait, they decided Chandra isn't into Nissa? I can totally see the other way being true, she often treats her like a kid sister, but Chandra is so into her it hurts to read sometimes.

It is in fact that Chandra and Nissa love each other, platonic-ally, and Chandra realizes they're Too Different to work together, that they missed their chance.

It's super ****ing frustrating because not one lick of it reads as true given what we know of the characters previously.

[ImperiousLeader]

Get into pioneer honestly. Modern is great, I love it. Modern is a cesspit of degeneracy. If you're looking to dip into constructed it is not where I would recommend you start.

Buying a Pioneer deck now seems really risky. The format is in its infancy and there will be frequent bannings. If you were on MTGO, not Arena, obviously, it's cheaper to try out decks, but until the format stabilizes a little, I'd be wary of having my deck banned.

I dunno, I only play Limited and EDH.

It is in fact that Chandra and Nissa love each other, platonic-ally, and Chandra realizes they're Too Different to work together, that they missed their chance.

It's super ****ing frustrating because not one lick of it reads as true given what we know of the characters previously.

I'll be skipping this book, was unimpressed by what I've heard. I didn't really like the other War of the Spark novel either. And yeah, this reads as "just a phase" and is super frustrating.

[LaZodiac]

I'll be skipping this book, was unimpressed by what I've heard. I didn't really like the other War of the Spark novel either. And yeah, this reads as "just a phase" and is super frustrating.

It's a good book with some great moments, and it's better than the first War novel. But I absolute get being completely soured by the handling of gruulfriends.

I mean I ****ing cried a little at work because of it. It hurt.

[Silfir]

I'm watching Tolarian Community College's Professor's scathing review of the novel right now, and good Lord - the Chandra/Nissa thing seems excruciatingly painful to read through just based on the snippets he presents.

I don't follow the story overmuch outside of what's written on the cards or in an occasional short story published on the site. You just never know what's going to happen when there's no clear competent creative mind in charge of the entire thing - you'll get some well-written stuff, and then something just slips through.

I guess Wizards just trusted that a guy like Greg Weisman - creator of Gargoyles, writer of many successful other works - wouldn't screw up so completely when given the task of ending a same-sex relationship between two women.

[LaZodiac]

I'm watching Tolarian Community College's Professor's scathing review of the novel right now, and good Lord - the Chandra/Nissa thing seems excruciatingly painful to read through just based on the snippets he presents.

I don't follow the story overmuch outside of what's written on the cards or in an occasional short story published on the site. You just never know what's going to happen when there's no clear competent creative mind in charge of the entire thing - you'll get some well-written stuff, and then something just slips through.

I guess Wizards just trusted that a guy like Greg Weisman - creator of Gargoyles, writer of many successful other works - wouldn't screw up so completely when given the task of ending a same-sex relationship between two women.

There are parts of the writing in that scene that felt good in a vacuum, but it was just wrong for Chandra and Nissa. Them not being together sucks, but if they did it well I might be able to accept it. But they did it incredibly wrong.

I have to imagine it's a "here's a check box of things to touch on just do them" thing passed down from Hasbro, or Nic Kelman being a creepy ****er. I don't believe anyone at WOTC is happy about this from what I've seen, either.

[Foeofthelance]

I'm watching Tolarian Community College's Professor's scathing review of the novel right now, and good Lord - the Chandra/Nissa thing seems excruciatingly painful to read through just based on the snippets he presents.

I don't follow the story overmuch outside of what's written on the cards or in an occasional short story published on the site. You just never know what's going to happen when there's no clear competent creative mind in charge of the entire thing - you'll get some well-written stuff, and then something just slips through.

I guess Wizards just trusted that a guy like Greg Weisman - creator of Gargoyles, writer of many successful other works - wouldn't screw up so completely when given the task of ending a same-sex relationship between two women.

From some of the comments being thrown around, it may not have been entirely under his control. Having read the section most people are angry at , it could have been handled properly if they had just left out the line, "Chandra had never been into girls." The relationship falling apart makes sense considering neither of the two has shown much emotional maturity, complete with Nissa stomping off for a while and Chandra being Chandra. But throw in the leading line and you basically have a heavy handed squashing on part of Chandra's character development.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Doug Beyer, the head of WotC's creative department, was apparently blindsided by the novel.

So we might have a left-hand right-hand thing.

This is why we have character bibles, guys.

[LaZodiac]

Doug Beyer, the head of WotC's creative department, was apparently blindsided by the novel.

So we might have a left-hand right-hand thing.

This is why we have character bibles, guys.

Not only that, Maro wasn' aware of some of the details as well. He's not related to the story team at all, but as one of the public faces of Magic who answers fan questions consistently, every day, he should probably be briefed about stuff like "Oh by the way we decided that, because previous books have made it clear that ghosts can hide in planeswalkers and objects to travel the blind eternities, Kaya can do the same by possessing someone in her ghost form".

There's a lot of Stuff going on that makes it clear that Nic Kellman, new lead of story and noted writer of a book about ****ing children, is a bad person and should be ousted. Fingers crossed. It won't solve everything because Hasbro exists, but it'll at least be something.

[Ninjaman]

There's a lot of Stuff going on that makes it clear that Nic Kellman... ... is a bad person and should be ousted.

What is that exactly?

[LaZodiac]

What is that exactly?

You literally cut out the part of my post where I said all the evidence we need.

If you need me to cite my sources or whatever I will.

[Ninjaman]

You literally cut out the part of my post where I said all the evidence we need.

If you need me to cite my sources or whatever I will.

I did a google search, and it turns out the book is about pubescent girls, so referring to them children seems like slander.
While the book was controversial that is not to say that he condones the actions within them, just like you can't say the director of a slasher flick condones murder.
It's also worth noting it was written over fifteen years ago.

[LaZodiac]

I did a google search, and it turns out the book is about pubescent girls, so referring to them children seems like slander.
While the book was controversial that is not to say that he condones the actions within them, just like you can't say the director of a slasher flick condones murder.
It's also worth noting it was written over fifteen years ago.

The way the book is written and the way he talks about the book makes it clear he does. Kelman has not shown any signs of changing and ever since he took the lead the stories been kinda falling apart.

Also, 13 year olds should not be having sex with adults. It is not slander to call them children, because they are.

[Ninjaman]

The way the book is written and the way he talks about the book makes it clear he does. Kelman has not shown any signs of changing

This is incredibly vague. I have not read the book, but I did look at the reviews, and there were a lot of people who didn't interpret it that way, so I would be careful about claiming your interpretation as the one final truth.

and ever since he took the lead the stories been kinda falling apart.

Him being a bad writer has nothing to do with him being a bad person.

Also, 13 year olds should not be having sex with adults. It is not slander to call them children, because they are.

From what I read online the book didn't meantion any ages, so they could have been 13, they could also have been 15, which is legal age several places in Europe.
I never said they should, I said they're not children. When you use the word children you are making people who read your comment think the book is something different than it actually is.

[LaZodiac]

Anything 20 and under is children. Teenagers are children.

Having been subjected to passages from the book in question I can tell you that anyone who doesn't read "child" from the descriptions is a dangerous person. It is, without a doubt, a book about powerful men ****ing children. Given that Magic is trying to be more inclusive, and their main audience IS younger children, this paints a pretty horrible picture.

Also there's a ****ing part of the book where a character says "Why did the writer of Lolita ***** out and not let the hero win and get the girl" and that's just... not a thing that should probably ever be written, ever, by anyone. And Kelman thinks this is a compelling thing, has said and much, and from what I've read of interviews is doing the wishy-washy "I'm not taking sides" here thing... about this subject.

Anyway this has gotten off topic. My point is that Nic Kelman is poison for the series and, while I've enjoyed the stories, there's a clear dip in quality from when he took over for the in house team and it shows. And while I'm not saying that bad writers are bad people, a lot of the issues have been related to the things that are typical of bad people.

[Duos]

So I've gotten my fifteen card highlander cube put together on Cubetutor. It's a pretty neat format-you draft two packs of ten cards then build a deck of exactly fifteen cards, including lands, and the only additional rule is that you don't lose the game if you try to draw from an empty library. It's a format all about squeezing maximal value out of your cards, and it plays super quickly! I'd be pretty chuffed if people took a look and offered their thoughts (and gave it a practice draft or two to help train the drafting algorithm). Link in the spoiler:

Spoiler: 15 Card Highlander Cube

Show

https://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/147559

The Multicolor cards are supposed to sort of point the way towards what that color pair wants to do, but the archetypes are as follows, for people interested in knowing what they're getting themselves into:
U/W Skies
G/W Tokens
U/B Zombies
R/G Ramp
U/G Goodstuff
R/B Aggro
R/W Equipment
W/B Control
B/G Midrange
U/R Spells

[Ninjaman]

Anything 20 and under is children. Teenagers are children.

That's just not true. If a 20 year old and an 18 year old were dating you wouldn't say the 20 year old slept with children.

Having been subjected to passages from the book in question I can tell you that anyone who doesn't read "child" from the descriptions is a dangerous person. It is, without a doubt, a book about powerful men ****ing children. Given that Magic is trying to be more inclusive, and their main audience IS younger children, this paints a pretty horrible picture.

Again you're doing nothing more than asserting that your subjective interpretation of a literary piece is the objective truth.

Also there's a ****ing part of the book where a character says "Why did the writer of Lolita ***** out and not let the hero win and get the girl" and that's just... not a thing that should probably ever be written, ever, by anyone. And Kelman thinks this is a compelling thing, has said and much, and from what I've read of interviews is doing the wishy-washy "I'm not taking sides" here thing... about this subject.

You cannot take a paragraph from a book to be the author's own thoughts unless it is explicitly noted that it is.
Not wanting to take sides is kinda shady, but not a basis to say he must be ousted. I also can't trust that you're accurately portraying his stance on that matter given your other comments.

Anyway this has gotten off topic. My point is that Nic Kelman is poison for the series and, while I've enjoyed the stories, there's a clear dip in quality from when he took over for the in house team and it shows.

Saying that he shouldn't be in his position because he is unqualified is perfectly fine, it is something entirely different to make allegations.

And while I'm not saying that bad writers are bad people, a lot of the issues have been related to the things that are typical of bad people.

I don't even know what to make of this sentence.
It seems like an association fallacy more than anything.

[Amechra]

Anything 20 and under is children. Teenagers are children.

I'm curious where you live where people aren't considered adults until they turn 21. Like, people are legally considered adults in the US at 18 - that's why they can vote, own property, serve in the military, and give consent.

(girls is still super gross, though.)

---

Back on topic: What are people's opinions on Oathbreaker as a format? I'm kinda annoyed that you can only have planeswalkers as "commanders", because otherwise I'd be interested in fiddling around with it (I've never pulled a planeswalker from a pack and don't have the money to spend on buying one of the ones I like. No Wrenn & Six for me )

[LaZodiac]

That's just not true. If a 20 year old and an 18 year old were dating you wouldn't say the 20 year old slept with children.


Again you're doing nothing more than asserting that your subjective interpretation of a literary piece is the objective truth.


You cannot take a paragraph from a book to be the author's own thoughts unless it is explicitly noted that it is.
Not wanting to take sides is kinda shady, but not a basis to say he must be ousted. I also can't trust that you're accurately portraying his stance on that matter given your other comments.

Don't assume what I would and would not say. If you're 20 don't ****ing date anyone younger than 20!

They are literally called barely legal! And that they have undeveloped breasts and boney ankles! All traits of actual literal children.

I'm curious where you live where people aren't considered adults until they turn 21. Like, people are legally considered adults in the US at 18 - that's why they can vote, own property, serve in the military, and give consent.

(girls is still super gross, though.)

---

Back on topic: What are people's opinions on Oathbreaker as a format? I'm kinda annoyed that you can only have planeswalkers as "commanders", because otherwise I'd be interested in fiddling around with it (I've never pulled a planeswalker from a pack and don't have the money to spend on buying one of the ones I like. No Wrenn & Six for me )

I should clarify that I live in Canada, where the age of consent is 16 and you're legally an adult at 18-19. My point is that, if you're above twenty, anything under 20 should be off limits. That's a child. That's not a fully formed human yet. Yes of course there is some leeway there, 19 to 20 is a short gap, but it still feels a little sketch to me to go any further than that.

(It really is! And also I'm done with this conversation so yeah let's stick to actual Magic stuff instead of the justified drama in the community right now)

----------

Oathbreaker seems neat, but I think I prefer Brawl myself.

[Amechra]

Oathbreaker seems neat, but I think I prefer Brawl myself.

I also like Brawl, but I'm not a fan of the whole "your commander has to be standard legal" thing.

I've been messing around with a few (virtual) Peasant Brawl decks, where your commander is an uncommon and the rest of your 59 are commons or basic lands. It works surprisingly well, even with just monocolor. Sigil Captain is a surprisingly fun commander to build around.

[LansXero]

Thats rather preacy though; I dont think anyone sane can hold that outlook on age gaps. People have been getting married and siring children from 16+ all the time, even turning into perfectly fine families. Hell most of my uncles either had their first kid or were married before they hit 18, and its still pretty common in rural areas of my country. Plenty of guys do military service before being 18 as well, so I guess they're fine to get shot at, but sex is oh so very taboo?

[Ninjaman]

So I've gotten my fifteen card highlander cube put together on Cubetutor. It's a pretty neat format-you draft two packs of ten cards then build a deck of exactly fifteen cards, including lands, and the only additional rule is that you don't lose the game if you try to draw from an empty library. It's a format all about squeezing maximal value out of your cards, and it plays super quickly! I'd be pretty chuffed if people took a look and offered their thoughts (and gave it a practice draft or two to help train the drafting algorithm). Link in the spoiler:

Spoiler: 15 Card Highlander Cube

Show

https://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/147559

The Multicolor cards are supposed to sort of point the way towards what that color pair wants to do, but the archetypes are as follows, for people interested in knowing what they're getting themselves into:
U/W Skies
G/W Tokens
U/B Zombies
R/G Ramp
U/G Goodstuff
R/B Aggro
R/W Equipment
W/B Control
B/G Midrange
U/R Spells

The format seems fun, the cube seems pretty well put together.
Some thoughts:
The archtypes are vastly different in terms of how wide they are, this is a bit odd.
Getting five colors for Chamber Sentry seems very difficult when land destruction exists, though I guess you can draft color fixers.
Arbor elf could just be Fyndhorn Elves or Elvish Mystic.
Why is there not the same amount of cards in each color?

[LaZodiac]

Thats rather preacy though; I dont think anyone sane can hold that outlook on age gaps. People have been getting married and siring children from 16+ all the time, even turning into perfectly fine families. Hell most of my uncles either had their first kid or were married before they hit 18, and its still pretty common in rural areas of my country. Plenty of guys do military service before being 18 as well, so I guess they're fine to get shot at, but sex is oh so very taboo?

Comment removed, I'm done with this conversation.

--------

I feel like a combo of Brawl and Oathbreaker would probably be better overall. Combine the two into one cool format!

[mythmonster2]

Might be best to stop the off topic discussion before mods get called in.

[Ninjaman]

Yes, I don't think this conversation can continue while staying within community guidelines.

[Duos]

The format seems fun, the cube seems pretty well put together.
Some thoughts:
The archtypes are vastly different in terms of how wide they are, this is a bit odd.
Getting five colors for Chamber Sentry seems very difficult when land destruction exists, though I guess you can draft color fixers.
Arbor elf could just be Fyndhorn Elves or Elvish Mystic.
Why is there not the same amount of cards in each color?

Glad you enjoyed it, and thanks for taking the time to draft it! I really do like the format; it's refreshingly different but it's super easy to grok. Also, fast, so it's perfect for bringing to conventions! (Time-wise, that is. I've had an 8 man pod draft and play 3 rounds in under an hour; now THAT'S efficiency! ) So, to respond to those thoughts/answer those questions:
The cube is still pretty young (in cube-years) so there's a lot of room to grow. Some of the archetypes aren't super well settled yet (simic and orzhov in particular are kinda stumping me. Was thinking of maybe doing morph for U/G, but we'll see what I can dig up)

Chamber Senty is a bit of a meme but I *am* trying to make the five color goodstuff deck a thing. It's still surprisingly good even as a 3 or 4 mana play, since it threatens a lot of powerful utility creatures.

This is true but I have a set foil Arbor Elf and damnit, man, I need my pimp factor!

I'd like to say it's because I've made some careful design choices, but really it's because I've had to cut some problematic cards and I have not paid super close attention to what I replaced them with. I'll probably tweak the color ratios the next time I do a big pass and change things up again.

[Ninjaman]

I would remove Vildin-Pack Outcast, seven mana is enough that you have to play more mana that you often would and you probably can't activate it through one land destruction spell. Ravager Wurm feels similarly out of place in a cube where everything else is 4 mana or less.
I think these cards would all be better in its place:
Harbinger of the Hunt
Blitz Hellion (actually quite cool for this format)
Regisaur Alpha
Ulrich of the KrallenHorde.


I would add Channeler Initiate as it is both a mana dork and a beater.
If blue black has zombies as a theme then why isn't Cemetery Reaper in here?

Rapid Rehybridization feels really bad in this cube.
Dreamstalker seems bad, am I missing something?
Convincing Mirage is a terrible card.
If zombies is a theme why is Gutterbones in here instead of Gravecrawler?
I'm not sold on Mob in this.
Whipflare should be Pyroclasm.
I'd replace Skin Invasion with something else.
Talons of Wildwood is really week without any enchantment synergy.
Enigma Drake seems to be too small too much of the time.

Steel Leaf Champion is too difficult to cast in this cube.