Gaming Group Imploded

[AvatarVecna]

Ran a D&D session today that was essentially filler: last session was this huge battle with an invasion force, so now this session is the town having a party. There's food and beer flowing plentifully, lots of music and dancing. Everybody can have a great time, and PCs can level up in the process.

Spoiler: IC/OOC context

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With the exception of Y, this group has been playing mostly every Sunday for a bit over two years. About a year into the old game, we ended up ditching the DM because they never prepared anything and couldn't improvise to save their life. I started running the current game, and Y joined a few months into it. The game's been chugging along for quite some time and I'm friends with them all, but something happened today that I'm not sure how to handle. >.<

Z plays an NG sorcerer. Z is constantly annoyed because he intended this character to be a more background supporting character (just a nice kid wanting to help out), but is constantly forced into the role of party leader because the others barely ever take charge on anything that isn't centered around their personal desires. Being the only Good in a CN party is rough, but while he despises playing with the group, the one-on-one RP has been highly enjoyable which makes him reluctant to just ditch the character. He decides to use the festivities as the distraction to accomplish one of their other goals for while the group is in town (the goal is "get the sheriff fired"). This didn't have to be done now, he could've just enjoyed himself at the party for now and dealt with it in the morning, but there's nothing really wrong with working ahead. This goal gets pretty thoroughly accomplished by the end of the session - he figured out both co-conspirators, collected evidence, found an uncorrupted authority figure, and presented the evidence to them. This also helps improve relations with a powerful local faerie.

T plays a CN gnome artificer. The character's only consistent personality is "CN gnome artificer", with occasional flavors of "snarky mechanic", "helpful healer", and "**** it if you gotta cut a bitch then cut a bitch". This player is the one most frequently unable to play due to real life getting in the way, which has led to some frustration coming her way, but that's been largely fixed now that summer break is back on. She seems to enjoy getting to craft things, and having people brought in from her backstory, but her interactions are usually pretty limited with NPCs. She is in the process of updating from old artificer to new, and so is happily and slightly tipsily hammering away on some items inside away from the open-air festivities.

Y, playing a CN barbarian, found a life-size stone statue of a surprised/horrified woman in the loot pile, immediately guessed that she was petrified, and starts searching for someone who can help with that. This would go easier with the faces help, but he rolls straight fire the whole night so it turns out fine. Character frequently leans towards both CG and CE, and is more or less an extended DBZA Son Goku reference. His pursuit of strength and power has led to friction with the group at times, because for a while it was at the point where anything that could challenge him was a good bit too much for the rest of the party to deal with in combat. He died falling from a redwood tree he tried to climb unassisted, and took a devil's deal to come back to life in exchange for murdering 5 people of the devil's choice as some "proof of his strength". A second attempt to climb that same tree later (also unassisted) saw him injure himself and a party member badly, and put them both in the debt of a faerie (the same one who's side they're getting on by doing away with the sheriff). His moral compass is often skewed towards selfish actions furthering his own goals despite a dearth of backstory, which (coupled with the power gaming) mean Y peeves of Z more than the others do combined.

H, playing a CN fighter/warlock, initially intended to try and do the sneaky mission while everybody's partying as well, but got distracted by a drinking contest and dancing with a cute girl. H very rarely puts herself out there in the roleplay, often worried about being too needy and making people mad, and is usually pretty content to just be here as part of the social event of gaming together. As part of running this game I've gradually been helping her out of her shell for short periods; sometimes it goes well, like tonight where she spent time just goofing around with NPCs, and sometimes it goes poorly, where she embraces the smalltown mentality and was exceedingly paranoid about the admittedly-shifty conwoman she thought was trying to take over her town. Extreme violent reactions are the most common RP coming from H that isn't prompted, which doesn't earn her any affection from Z. Probably the most important context for this post, though, is that a few months back H realized she was trans. The group has been very supportive throughout, her PC found a gender-switching potion in a potion shop to help her not feel uncomfortable with the RP as much (which has been working well so far ), and things have been largely fine. She's seemed much happier these past few months and I'm very glad for her. I also suspect she's on the spectrum, which doesn't help with the more social aspects of the game, but I enjoy gaming with her when she actually tries to roleplay, which is more often than it used to be.

AV, me, is running the game. I started running this particular game more or less out of obligation: I wanted the group to stay together but didn't particularly want to DM, but Z was so excited when we were talking about me potentially running this module that when I gave the excuse that it'd be difficult to run without maps and junk, bought and gifted the game package to me on Roll20. I hate hate hate wasting a friend's money so I've been running it. I'm bad at prep, like the previous DM, but I'm pretty good at improvising when I've got a module to go off of, so I've been doing fairly well so far. Starting to burn out, so I'm speeding things up a good bit, but that's fine cuz it's a WotC adventure and so it's pretty poorly-written. Additionally, I haven't shared this with the group, because it's something I only share basically anonymously (like here) or with exceptionally-close friends (because I'm unreasonably nervous about people I spend a lot of time with judging me on stuff), but I'm genderfluid, rarely solidly masculine or feminine in mind. Pronoun stuff doesn't bother me personally because it's not their fault I'm not keeping them in the loop, and it's nothing I don't deal with all the time anyway. But it's frequently on my mind because H is playing and I work hard not to screw up when discussing her PC and especially when discussing her.

Spoiler: Spoiler'd for length

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I think T fell asleep after session too so she's not here yet. She's been pretty supportive of H through all this though, so I'm sure she won't be happy when she wakes up...I guess I didn't need to explain her role in the context section, but it helps add context to the overall group dynamics which is part of what I need advice on managing going forward.

H
20/10 session, Vecna

Y
we can do stuff during week or on next session
tbh one of things I gotta do should be after party or when you're more conscious so
big thanks

AV
Lotsa good food and drink and people left, [Z PC]...but yeah, lots of people have passed out while you've been traipsing all over Middle Earth

Z
Sadly [Z PC] can't afford to get hella drunk, gotta keep wits sharp and don't wanna deal with a hangover during any actual negotiations during the next day

H
for the record, I did plan on having [H PC] sneak about and do the actually important stuff during the party... at first

This is about the time I passed out.

Z
Well, as always, people can just dump stuff on the responsible one...
(Not like [Z PC] would actively be working together with [H PC] any time soon.)

H
I'm sorry, It's just, I thought: "Oh, [H PC] will just finish this drinking competition and then she'll see if she can sneak around and find the captains house." but then the one thing that I'm like actually unable to ignore happened

Z
No that's fair, your character does as your character wants.

Y
Z you're a bit passive aggressive here

Z
Like I said, [Z PC] had it handled, and frankly was happy to not have to be near [H PC] ([Z PC]'s still rlly mad at them)

Y
Meanwhile [H PC] can be soon changed to
Pimp named [H PC]

H
I don't know why, but that 'them' kind of hurt a little

Y
oof
Z

Z
What??

H
It's fine though

Z
It's a gender neutral term that is often used in my vocabulary since it's a catch-all for anyone, especially used for fictional characters.
That sounds better when used in the past-present tense and in context flows better in my head than how you're misconstruing it.
If y'all recall I called [Z PC] by "They/Them" for MONTHS

H
I thought you did that intentionally!
anyway, I said it's fine

Z
For calling [Z PC] that? More or less, still applies though that he's a fictional character that isn't real, so gender doesn't apply to a concept.

Y
I think the main problem is that you called H, a real world person who identifies as female, a them
instead of a she

H
he didn't

Z
I didn't? I called [H PC] 'them'

Y
i missed half conversation
internet

H
he called [H PC] 'them', but that doesn't stop me from me from starting to freak out and think that Z doesn't think of me as being worth called 'she'. Even if I know that's not true, it can still hurt, because apparently I'm still an insecure little bitch.

so if you could not use 'them' when referring to [H PC] that would be great

Z
Not to sound like an ass here, I get it, I really do.
But I'm going to have to say 'no.'
Mainly on the grounds that I don't want to be censored when talking about something that's not real.
You, as a tangible human being, I will refer to as She/Her.
But I will refer to fictional characters as whatever comes to mind, gender neutral or gender specific whatever my brain picks at that split second of time.
Asking someone to change how they talk because you read into it too hard is kind of silly.
(No idea if I'm in the wrong here, but this is just my opinion that I am standing by)

H
I am serious, Z, it actually hurts.
it makes me feel like you only respect it in my situation because we've known each other for two years and you don't want anyone here to know you actually don't give a ****.

Z
You realize what you're asking me to do right?
You are asking me to manage your feelings because you can't do it yourself.
If this exceedingly insignificant thing I said in passing is a problem, you're in for an exceptionally difficult life in the long run.

H
It's just that you four are almost the only friends I have, and you won't do this one little thing for me

Y
Z seriously just do it
as for us calling [Z PC] a them was because [Z PC] refused to tell us his gender, didn't say whether he's a man or a woman and so what else could we have called [Z PC]

Z
I am not belittling nor dismissing, I am just pointing out that I will not be micromanage every little word because someone doesn't like my word choices.

H
Do you have any idea what it's like, Z? Do you have any idea how it is to finally find out what has been ruining your life, only to find out that you may never be happy as long as you don't become an entirely different person? To know that along the way there will very likely be friends or even family who will abandon you because of something you had no say in? That it's entirely possible you will stay like you are for the rest of your life, failing to chase your one chance of happiness because you failed to push past the pain like so many times before? That you will be hated and ridiculed, by so many people who never even met you if they only knew the truth? To feel pain every time you look at yourself, and to feel jealousy whenever you see someone that was lucky enough to be born what you weren't? To doubt if these feelings are even real, making an enemy of your own mind? YOU DON'T!
this isn't just any inconsequential bull**** you can do whatever you want about

today was such a good day, too...

Y
Z holy **** why is it so hard for you to just call [H PC] a she considering we did this gender change because of H coming out as transgender
It was supposed to represent H from the start, just why couldn’t you do this one simple thing

Z
Because it's a ****ing gender neutral word.
There is literally no reason that needs to be censored.

H
because I'm not ****ing non-binary. I asked to be called 'she', not because being called 'he' specifically is the problem, but rather the lack of being called 'she'. I don't want to just not be a guy, I want to be a girl.

Y
Using gender neutral term is fine until the person asks to be called specific existing pronoun
All you had to do, when H said she’s feeling hurt by that, was to say “I’m sorry, I will call [H PC] a she in the future”

Z
Well too ****ing bad.
I don't give a **** what someone calls themselves. He/She/They. hell they can be calling themselves a ****ing donkey for all I care.
I am stating I am not going to tiptoe around my own goddamn vocabulary because someone cannot control how they feel about words.
I am not ****ing dealing with this bull****.

H
did he just ****ing leave the server? Oh, and he unfriended me too. that's just greeeeeat

looks like I'm not getting any sleep tonight

Y
Look, we will figure something out
It’s not your fault
There’s a person who can help with this.
Unfortunately he’s sleeping
And I would just make situation worse

He left the server and blocked everybody but me, AFAICT.

I woke up just a lil bit ago and H was till up even though it's like 3am where she is. Helped her calm down a bit and get to sleep. Z seems less in-the-moment angry than he was but is sticking to his stance on this matter.

These people are all good friends of mine and I don't know what to do. I am in need of advice on how to handle things from here, on how to do right by my friends. >.<

[flat_footed]

Z took a ferry out of town, killed the ferryman and then sunk the ferry. Blocking everyone seems to send a pretty clear message, tbh. I can understand wanting to keep the game together, but I feel like Z was way out of line. H's request was in no way out of line, but Z went supernova over it.

By leaving the game in such an obvious fashion, Z gave away their right to be in the game. If Z wants to rejoin, it should be with the party's consent. But even then, there's no way to promise Z wouldn't pull a stunt like this again.

To salvage these players again, in my opinion, is to try to mend things between Z and H before anything else. I'm gonna assume that if Y feels like Z could be in the party again, the others would be more willing to follow. Z unblocking H and making the first step would be a good thing to push for.

[Honest Tiefling]

Okay, for reference, I'm cisgendered. Not really up and up on the whole trans thing.

But my feeling of the situation is that H made a request based on her own feelings during a difficult time. It was a very minor request to make of Z, but one that is easily goofed up, especially if Z has a habit of referring to people as 'them' out of habit. But that doesn't appear to be the case, in that Z isn't worried about goofing up.

Z's reaction seems more born out of stubbornness and strange principles rather than his own needs. He wants to use language in a particular way, regardless of how it will be taken emotionally or logically. Maybe I am missing something, but Z doesn't really seem to have the same emotional need or upset about the language, just upset about being controlled. Does Z's need to be allowed to do what they want outweigh H's need to feel supported? I would say that a real friend would express their own desires in a much more constructive way and work out a compromise if it mattered that much to them. And honestly, I can't really wrap my head around the idea of needing your language to not be considerate of others.

I would actually say that there is nothing wrong with calling a transgendered person 'them' as long as 'them' is also used for the cisgendered. And before you add Z back to the group, I would definitely check chat logs to see if 'them' is used for other NPCs/PCs. Else that's a bit weird.

And...Really odd question, but do you know the nationality of each individual? It might make a difference.

[AvatarVecna]

Z took a ferry out of town, killed the ferryman and then sunk the ferry. Blocking everyone seems to send a pretty clear message, tbh. I can understand wanting to keep the game together, but I feel like Z was way out of line. H's request was in no way out of line, but Z went supernova over it.

By leaving the game in such an obvious fashion, Z gave away their right to be in the game. If Z wants to rejoin, it should be with the party's consent. But even then, there's no way to promise Z wouldn't pull a stunt like this again.

To salvage these players again, in my opinion, is to try to mend things between Z and H before anything else. I'm gonna assume that if Y feels like Z could be in the party again, the others would be more willing to follow. Z unblocking H and making the first step would be a good thing to push for.

That's about how my feelings on the matter are. I'm wanting to see how others feel about the situation though cuz I rarely trust my own gut reaction.

Okay, for reference, I'm cisgendered. Not really up and up on the whole trans thing.

But my feeling of the situation is that H made a request based on her own feelings during a difficult time. It was a very minor request to make of Z, but one that is easily goofed up, especially if Z has a habit of referring to people as 'them' out of habit. But that doesn't appear to be the case, in that Z isn't worried about goofing up.

Z's reaction seems more born out of stubbornness and strange principles rather than his own needs. He wants to use language in a particular way, regardless of how it will be taken emotionally or logically. Maybe I am missing something, but Z doesn't really seem to have the same emotional need or upset about the language, just upset about being controlled. Does Z's need to be allowed to do what they want outweigh H's need to feel supported? I would say that a real friend would express their own desires in a much more constructive way and work out a compromise if it mattered that much to them. And honestly, I can't really wrap my head around the idea of needing your language to not be considerate of others.

I would actually say that there is nothing wrong with calling a transgendered person 'them' as long as 'them' is also used for the cisgendered. And before you add Z back to the group, I would definitely check chat logs to see if 'them' is used for other NPCs/PCs. Else that's a bit weird.

And...Really odd question, but do you know the nationality of each individual? It might make a difference.

Z and I are American. I think T is too, but I've yet to see her reaction (although I can certainly guess at it). Y and H are Swedish/Polish, I believe, but it doesn't come up much so I'm unsure on the particulars. My very general thought on the matter is that I'm not really worried about upsetting the character because the character isn't real, but I worry about upsetting the real flesh-and-blood person attached, and treating the character seriously is a part of that. My personal issue with how things went down is less with the misgendering - it happens, and it seems like a reasonable, honest mistake to make, addressing somebody with a gender-neutral term when she'd prefer feminine pronouns. But when confronted about how it's hurting H's feelings a bit, when she's frequently socially...sensitive, doubling down on the word choice with an anti-censorship argument is putting me off in a way that's difficult to describe properly. >.<

[Honest Tiefling]

Hrm. Can't say I really know much about Sweden or Poland, so no help there, sorry.

I thought about this in the bathroom, and I have an alternate theory. Z might be a little upset at the party, hence the possibly passive aggressive comments. Seems like he might be the odd man out, in that everyone else is fine with being chaotic neutral weirdos. Clearly, there is some tension running high in the group, possibly making H and Z on edge, especially if this at the tail end of a wild session. Now, Z's comments might be passive aggressive, or just joking, but it's hard to tell.

While talking, Z is corrected by H. H might have called herself 'insecure' as a joke to diffuse the situation. Z might have incorrectly interpreted the situation that H was calling him out with passive aggressive comments...That she accused him of, correctly or not. Z, possibly emotional, sticks to his guns. Why? He might not have intended any slight, and might still be in the wrong headspace due to the game. He might also be trying to enforce that his treatment of H's character is NOT the same as treatment of H herself. Not saying he is in the right, but it might be what happened.

Another possibly weird idea is that Z is using the wrong mental script. From my own experience, when men often speak to each other, they often dismiss each other's problem...Meant as a positive way. As in 'Your leg is broken? Nah, you're cool. You're tough, walk it off! You can do this!' sort of way. Z could have been trying to do this to H (and not in a way to dismiss her transition), as men often speak to anyone and everyone, including their own mothers or girlfriends, in this fashion. Him dismissing the problem is trying to establish that there's no need to worry as H's gender isn't a huge issue to worry about, and that the language isn't important as H is a lady, period. Problem is, women, such as H and Y don't always respond well to this script because it is a common tactic among women.

So Z is trying to play off the situation as no biggie because no matter what, at the end of the day, H is still a woman regardless of his own language. When H and Y confront him about this, he might have gone on the defensive because they, to him, were trying to make a big deal of his language when he was trying to disuse the situation in his own way. But showing support to a woman by dismissing her problems is often not going to produce the best results, let me tell you. So, subconsciously, he could have been upset and that might explain why he freaked out about control, because it shouldn't matter in comparison to reality. But that's just a guess.

But I think I have to agree with your last sentence. Unless Z can produce a very good reason, supporting a friend during a difficult time should outweigh a lot of other concerns.

[flat_footed]

That's about how my feelings on the matter are. I'm wanting to see how others feel about the situation though cuz I rarely trust my own gut reaction.

Regardless of the conversation and topic itself, has Z expressed any interest in rejoining the game?

[AvatarVecna]

Regardless of the conversation and topic itself, has Z expressed any interest in rejoining the game?

Z hadn't blocked me, and left a PM saying he'd left and blocked folks cuz he "needed space". He's apologized to me for "any dumpster fire you may be dealing with now" and for "things devolving as they did", which isn't really expressing regret for what he did as much as the fallout that resulted from it. He's expressed curiosity about how mad folks are with him now that it's been a few hours since the argument, but given the events I'm unsure whether to read that as concern for how his words have affected the others. I think he wanted to rejoin in time and just wanted to leave to cool off, but I dunno how feasible that is.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'd confront him, rather bluntly and honestly. 'Your words really affected H during a difficult time. I'm not sure how to take that, and if you'd be a good fit for the group.' and see how he responds. The important thing is to stress how H feels, as I don't know if Z really meant to be a jerk. I do advise making sure to stress that you want his side of things, and to not accuse him (or seem like you are) of misgendering H on purpose.

His words might just be him being frustrated, but...Not really promising if I have to be honest. I think you might need to let him cool down a bit before engaging.

[flat_footed]

Z hadn't blocked me, and left a PM saying he'd left and blocked folks cuz he "needed space". He's apologized to me for "any dumpster fire you may be dealing with now" and for "things devolving as they did", which isn't really expressing regret for what he did as much as the fallout that resulted from it. He's expressed curiosity about how mad folks are with him now that it's been a few hours since the argument, but given the events I'm unsure whether to read that as concern for how his words have affected the others. I think he wanted to rejoin in time and just wanted to leave to cool off, but I dunno how feasible that is.

The beauty of the internet is you can log off. You can put down the phone and go for a walk. If Z wanted space, that's what he should of done. Ditching the server and blocking everyone else sends its own kind of message. Regardless of the fallout from the conversation, ditching people in this way has consequences.

Can your game still function if Z's character is absent or botted? Maybe even ask the players if they're alright keeping that PC in the game while stuff with Z is worked out.

[AvatarVecna]

I'd confront him, rather bluntly and honestly. 'Your words really affected H during a difficult time. I'm not sure how to take that, and if you'd be a good fit for the group.' and see how he responds. The important thing is to stress how H feels, as I don't know if Z really meant to be a jerk. I do advise making sure to stress that you want his side of things, and to not accuse him (or seem like you are) of misgendering H on purpose.

His words might just be him being frustrated, but...Not really promising if I have to be honest. I think you might need to let him cool down a bit before engaging.

Sounds like solid advice. And if nothing comes of it...I guess I'll deal with that if that's what it comes to.

The beauty of the internet is you can log off. You can put down the phone and go for a walk. If Z wanted space, that's what he should of done. Ditching the server and blocking everyone else sends its own kind of message. Regardless of the fallout from the conversation, ditching people in this way has consequences.

Can your game still function if Z's character is absent or botted? Maybe even ask the players if they're alright keeping that PC in the game while stuff with Z is worked out.

Botting's not ideal, but there's things that could be done to explain why Z's PC isn't around for awhile in-game, if taking a break from the game would help those involved. And you've got a point about logging off...blocking wasn't necessary.

[Honest Tiefling]

Er...Maybe don't say 'good fit for the group'. That frames him as an outsider. Maybe something more like 'it might not be a good idea for them to game with you right now'. Sorry. I'm not really good at phrasing things.

Given what Z said to you, he seems quite upset. Either he was trying to frame the other players (minus sleepyhead) as being irrational, or to get you on his side before you read things. Not really cool. I do recommend perhaps considering giving him a break from the game, depending on his response. Given that he rushed out to buy the module for you, he's either manipulative or easily excitable.

What I don't recommend is running the game without him before speaking one on one with him. It doesn't need to be you, if you think Y or T might be better. But don't run it without him without saying anything, that's just going to frustrate him further. At least give him a chance to defend himself. I would say it would be okay to continue separate antics of the characters before they meet back up, but I worry about the strain on you as a DM.

[flat_footed]

Er...Maybe don't say 'good fit for the group'. That frames him as an outsider. Maybe something more like 'it might not be a good idea for them to game with you right now'. Sorry. I'm not really good at phrasing things.

Given what Z said to you, he seems quite upset. Either he was trying to frame the other players (minus sleepyhead) as being irrational, or to get you on his side before you read things. Not really cool. I do recommend perhaps considering giving him a break from the game, depending on his response. Given that he rushed out to buy the module for you, he's either manipulative or easily excitable.

What I don't recommend is running the game without him before speaking one on one with him. It doesn't need to be you, if you think Y or T might be better. But don't run it without him without saying anything, that's just going to frustrate him further. At least give him a chance to defend himself. I would say it would be okay to continue separate antics of the characters before they meet back up, but I worry about the strain on you as a DM.

Another option, albeit tougher on AV, is to run a side quest with Z. This keeps them "in" the game, and allows for the players to all remain in some context. Should everyone be able to move past this and rejoin as a happy party, explaining the side quest and results IC provides a way for Z to be worked back in without the inherent awkwardness.

Though, from my seat, it does seem you've taken on a bulk of the stress from this happening. Even with all parties seemingly keeping you only indirectly involved, it's tough since this is your game. None of this fallout was your fault and whatever the outcome, you did your best with a poor situation. The only people you should have to worry about are A and V, and they come first.

[DeTess]

Hmmm. If this argument had been about anything else, I'd say the non-Z group had initially over-reacted a little. However, I happen to have a decent idea about how much casual/accidental misgendering can hurt, and completely understand why H got upset when she did. Z blowing up like that is likely indicative of some larger issue, and it might be a good idea to have a chat to find out what it was, as depending on what it is (and the forgiveness of everyone else) he could enter back into the group after an apology.

Edit: okay, this was probably less than clear, so let me try again. I can kinda see why Z blew up, because if he's had literally 0 experience with transgender people and the kind of things they have to deal with it might have seemed to him like the rest where playing 'thought police' over a minor issue. That issue just wasn't nearly as minor as he might have thought it was, which is why I think Z's in the wrong here. Chances are that some other factors either from the game or from his life might have played a role as well. I don't think Z is a lost cause, and if you can figure out what caused the blow-up (and working to reduce that issue if possible) and ensure Z understands how important gender-affirming gestures like using 'she' is to H then I see no reason why they can't re-enter the game.

[Knaight]

I get where Z is coming from on this, I really do (which would vanish the moment the word "he" was used) - but this is a case where the reasonable action is to bend on something that's fundamentally pretty minor to you, but a big deal to the person you're speaking to. It's the same way that I won't swear around people who really hate profanity, regardless of how much I adore using it - it's fundamentally a bigger deal to them than me, I can make the concession. This? This is a somewhat bigger deal.

That's also about how I'd frame this when talking to Z, including explicitly noting that you know Z is using "them" as gender-nonspecified instead of specified-nonbinary. Maybe even make a point of saying that you know being asked to change the way you speak is an irritating imposition, and that if it wasn't truly important to H you wouldn't be asking for it, possibly with an example of being on the other side.

[Tajerio]

Anyone who would write the sentence "if this exceedingly insignificant thing I said in passing is a problem, you're in for an exceptionally difficult life in the long run," is not someone with whom I would bother associating, no matter what the context of the sentence. Excessive use of long adverbs when defending a stupid position on the one hand, and being a pompous ass on the other, are correlated like nobody's business. And I'm in academia, so I've got plenty of supporting data for that view.

Moreover, my conviction would only be strengthened by the fact that this was communicated to a transgender woman, on the subject of refusing to use the pronouns she would like to be used for her self-representative character. And that doesn't even take into account the meltdown Z had at the end of the conversation.

That said, Z's your friend, not mine, so you know him best. And my guess is--given the reference to summer break, and the language in the chat--that you guys aren't so old that he couldn't learn to be less of a self-centered twit. The question is whether you feel like helping him grow up or not, because that's what it's gonna take for any resumption of the game to work.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Maybe even make a point of saying that you know being asked to change the way you speak is an irritating imposition, and that if it wasn't truly important to H you wouldn't be asking for it

It's tough, becuase H said "you four are almost the only friends I have," but Z is really not behaving like someone who values that friendship. If he did, I'm sure he wouldn't have objected to this 'irritating imposition' in the first place. That's what being friends is all about, isn't it?

AV, I think you should be very careful about reintroducing Z to the game. He might be able to grow and become a better person, but I'd expect it to take some time, and may never happen at all. 'Hope for the best, prepare for the worst,' I guess?

[Honest Tiefling]

Anyone who would write the sentence "if this exceedingly insignificant thing I said in passing is a problem, you're in for an exceptionally difficult life in the long run," is not someone with whom I would bother associating, no matter what the context of the sentence.

I'm quoting this, because I think Tajerio put it very well why a lot of us are a bit wary of Z rejoining the game.

[AvatarVecna]

You've all helped make a hard decision easier on my heart. I knew what needed to be done, really, but I needed help chipping away at the reasons not to. Thank you for ylur assistance.

[Talakeal]

I am going to tell you what someone told me when I had a guy blow up and leave my game over something similar:

You should consider yourself lucky. Most people don't have garbage that takes itself out.

[TaiLiu]

You've decided on a course of action already, and this won't affect that, but I also want to say that it's common to misgender/degender trans women by using they/them pronouns for them; and that it's common to deny that misgendering by saying that it's a universal pronoun. I don't think your problem player is any different.

[Douglas]

Besides the issue of how this whole thing affected H, this statement:

For calling [Z PC] that? More or less, still applies though that he's a fictional character that isn't real, so gender doesn't apply to a concept.

just has me going "what."

Seriously, "Joe, the guy at the bar in real life" and "Joe, the guy at the bar in this fictional story" have different status with regard to gender? What. Fictional or not, they're both guys, male, and properly referred to with "he". How is this even a question?

[AvatarVecna]

Besides the issue of how this whole thing affected H, this statement:

just has me going "what."

Seriously, "Joe, the guy at the bar in real life" and "Joe, the guy at the bar in this fictional story" have different status with regard to gender? What. Fictional or not, they're both guys, male, and properly referred to with "he". How is this even a question?

That's actually in regards to a completely different hypocrisy that maybe should've been a warning sign. When this game started, [Z PC] was a fairly androgynous half-elf in looks and clothes, and most of the PCs defaulted to "she" while Z would discuss them in a gender-neutral manner. Z/[Z PC] flipped out at Y/[Y PC] a bit after Y joined because Y called them "he" fairly consistently. No preference had been declared up to that point by player or character beyond Z's use of the gender-neutral "they/them/their", but since their first big argument was both in and out of character in regards to Y/[Y PC] calling [Z PC] "he", it probably came across to Y that Z was going for an androgynous girl or a nonbinary character.

As DM, I was aware this wasn't the case. [Z PC] was a cis male half-elf dressed in gender-neutral mage clothes. He's a guy, and doesn't think of himself as anything besides a guy, but because he wasn't "out" to the group as a cis male yet this was something Z felt was worth having an argument about at the time. It's also the exact kind of "freaking out over a (sort of) misgendered PC" behavior that he was deriding that started this mess, so that's fun.

[DeTess]

That's actually in regards to a completely different hypocrisy that maybe should've been a warning sign. When this game started, [Z PC] was a fairly androgynous half-elf in looks and clothes, and most of the PCs defaulted to "she" while Z would discuss them in a gender-neutral manner. Z/[Z PC] flipped out at Y/[Y PC] a bit after Y joined because Y called them "he" fairly consistently. No preference had been declared up to that point by player or character beyond Z's use of the gender-neutral "they/them/their", but since their first big argument was both in and out of character in regards to Y/[Y PC] calling [Z PC] "he", it probably came across to Y that Z was going for an androgynous girl or a nonbinary character.

Okay, I'd say this is important context. For me at least it moves Z from 'hopefully just clueless' into 'potentially malicious' territorry. This makes it seem like Z has some strong opinions on misgendering but believes that they only apply when done to him(bad)/don't apply when done to H (worse).

[Aspheric]

I agree with Randuir. It seems like this isn't the first time Z hasn't taken pronoun usage for trans people seriously, when he really should know better.

I don't know if you've talked to Z yet. If you haven't, I would start by probing whether or not he's interested in returning. It seems like he has had reservations about this game for a while. Maybe he needed a break, or maybe he's done playing with your group. If he leaves, don't let him off easy. This is a terrible send-off for the group, and his behaviour was unacceptable and cruel. Ditching the group after exploding like that isn't something I would let him just walk away from. If he wants to come back, I would demand that he apologize to H, and then to the group; and second, that he promises not to preemptively block his friends in the chat if he needs to blow off steam. These people see him as a friend, and if he feels likewise, it's not unreasonable to ask him to make ammends.

If he says he'll do these things to return, I'd first check in with H. She was the one hurt by all this, and if she finds his apology inadequate/doesn't want anything to do with him anymore, or if she just needs time away with him before the whole group gets together again, that's a fair call for her to make. If Z cares at all about H's wellbeing, he should respect her decision. If not, then he cares more about a game than respecting another person's dignity.

[Misereor]

These people are all good friends of mine and I don't know what to do. I am in need of advice on how to handle things from here, on how to do right by my friends. >.<

If Z was already annoyed by being shoehorned into a role he didn't want to play, also having to deal with player drama and people telling him what to do could very well be what set him off. TBH it doesn't really seem like you have personalities that mesh well in your group, going by your admittedly brief description. Kinda like having a Bob Herzog and a Cody Winkle in the same group (*).



(*) - Would have used an OOTS reference instead of KODT, but nothing came to mind.

[Kyberwulf]

Both of them seem pretty passive aggresive there. And both need to be addressed. It seems like to me you are playing favorites.

You should have addressed the fact that the one player didn't want to be, and is being forced to take up the leadership role a long time ago. Now not only in the game he is being forced to act a certain way, he is also starting to be forced to adhere to something he might not want in real life.

The other player should have delt with the other player privately, instead of calling him out in the open. Or barring that brought the situation up with you. I know people won't agree with me, but the other player is pressing the victim button. Now now. Stop. Breathe and just reread the typed transaction out again. Without the frame of mind that the player is being a dbag, and the other is helpless. I reread the thing a couple times, and it doesn't seem to me that anyone is being trans anything until the gaslight button is pushed, passively to I might add.. I mean come on... you hurt me.. melodramatic wait... it's fine though..

As for the leaving and blocking thing. I can get it. When you disengage, you should as completely as you can. Otherwise you could get PMd or see chats that will target you as being wrong, when it's not just you... and will trigger your defensiveness. He did a moderately okay thing by disengaging and waiting for the proper arbiter to contact him.

[Honest Tiefling]

The other player should have delt with the other player privately, instead of calling him out in the open. Or barring that brought the situation up with you. I know people won't agree with me, but the other player is pressing the victim button. Now now. Stop. Breathe and just reread the typed transaction out again. Without the frame of mind that the player is being a dbag, and the other is helpless. I reread the thing a couple times, and it doesn't seem to me that anyone is being trans anything until the gaslight button is pushed, passively to I might add.. I mean come on... you hurt me.. melodramatic wait... it's fine though..

I disagree with this. I don't think that initially, as presented, Z's comments were transphobic enough to make such an issue. The issue is that H made a request, a very tiny request, and Z said no for very odd reasons. Had Z presented a good reason (I do that because I don't know the character's gender in game and I'm trying not to metagame, etc.), it would have been different. If Z had said 'I don't really understand this, but if it makes you happy, okay' it would have been fine.

Instead, their reaction was basically 'stfu' during a VERY difficult time means that Z values not being inconvenienced over supporting a friend or their feelings. That's not a sign of a good friend, and probably not someone you want hanging around when you are trying to both be supportive during such a time and thrust into a role that you don't want.

Also, is Z really forced into a leadership role? I'd say no. They are the one trying to be Chaotic Good in what seems to be a much more Chaotic Neutral group. Why would a Chaotic Neutral group want or need a leader? Seems like he's trying to force the group into something they aren't and it might be a contributing factor.

Upon rereading the original post, I think there might be a problem with this mindset, because they doesn't actually seem to want to roleplay with the group. I am worried that they wants to run a heroic campaign for his CG character, while everyone else is having fun being CN hooligans. The original post mentions that they despise roleplaying with the others, and this might have caused them to be very frustrated as well as alright in trying to drive a wedge between AV and the others. Not to mention, I'm still suspicious of them going out and buying the adventure for AV, a bit of a ulterior motive?

[Mercurias]

Look, the long and short of this problem is that Z threw a self-righteous fit, left the game, and purposefully burned his bridges with the other players.

It doesn’t matter how frustrated you are, though. Being really, really angry is not an excuse for behaving like that towards one’s friends.

Likewise, this is ultimately something up to Z to mend. You can tell him that he needs to apologize, and who to apologize to, but you can’t and shouldn’t do it for him.

I’ve seen some dialogue in the thread concerning passive-aggressiveness. In my read of the situation, both players are fairly introverted, and both felt attacked. Passive-aggressiveness is a common response to that.

To me, the situation reads like Z has had ongoing problems with the group for a while which weren’t addressed to his satisfaction. This was just the week he lost his temper.

My read on H is that she cares a lot more about the people around her accepting her being female than about her group standing or party power dynamics or whatever. I could be wrong, but that’s what I gathered from the context.

[Rynjin]

It's tough, becuase H said "you four are almost the only friends I have," but Z is really not behaving like someone who values that friendship. If he did, I'm sure he wouldn't have objected to this 'irritating imposition' in the first place. That's what being friends is all about, isn't it?

This in particular, but this whole situation in general, is something nobody can really meaningfully comment on without being privy to most of the details of this friendship.

I have someone I'm friends with, and value that friendship highly, who has a habit of making "irritating impositions" on me and other people in our friend group, and not every one needs to be humored, and the ones that do need to be (like the one mentioned in this thread) can potentially be buried by other said impositions when the person in question has a habit of making mountains out of molehills.

Someone can value a friendship and not let that friend rule their life at the same time.

When you're friends with someone that having a conversation with is like walking through a minefield, the best thing to do IME is just accept the mines are going to explode sometimes instead of walking on eggshells until the frustration of doing so makes you so tired and depressed you want to cut ties with said person.

That very well could be the scenario in question...or not. We'll never know what goes on inside of Z's head, and I doubt AV has analyzed every interaction of his friend group to the extent that he would be able (much less willing) to communicate that kind of potential trend.

That is one of a thousand unknowable reasons for all this coming to a head, and I don't think talking it in circles is really going to come to any new conclusion.

[Xyril]

This in particular, but this whole situation in general, is something nobody can really meaningfully comment on without being privy to most of the details of this friendship.

I have someone I'm friends with, and value that friendship highly, who has a habit of making "irritating impositions" on me and other people in our friend group, and not every one needs to be humored, and the ones that do need to be (like the one mentioned in this thread) can potentially be buried by other said impositions when the person in question has a habit of making mountains out of molehills.

While this is an astute observation about judging situations from a distance in general, in this particular case I feel like I have all the details I need to know, namely the rank hypocrisy of Z.

That's actually in regards to a completely different hypocrisy that maybe should've been a warning sign. When this game started, [Z PC] was a fairly androgynous half-elf in looks and clothes, and most of the PCs defaulted to "she" while Z would discuss them in a gender-neutral manner. Z/[Z PC] flipped out at Y/[Y PC] a bit after Y joined because Y called them "he" fairly consistently. No preference had been declared up to that point by player or character beyond Z's use of the gender-neutral "they/them/their", but since their first big argument was both in and out of character in regards to Y/[Y PC] calling [Z PC] "he", it probably came across to Y that Z was going for an androgynous girl or a nonbinary character.

To take this into slightly less loaded territory, I can see how you might say that--for example--asking your friends not to whistle while you're gaming might seem like a reasonable imposition on its own, but if that's one of literally dozens of rules imposed by the same friend, then that changes the picture entirely. However, I would say that regardless of any other context, if Z throws a childish fit because someone else whistled during their session, and Z then throws a bigger, even more childish fit when he is the one being asked not to whistle, then I really can't imagine any context that would make Z's behavior remotely acceptable. Even if the other player has a history of making excessive amounts of tiny requests for accommodation (and given what I've read so far, I really don't see AvatarVecna omitting that detail if it were true), Z could have--and should have picked a less hypocritical hill to die on and done so in a less dickish manner.

As others have said, Z did you a favor by saving you from having to post a "Hey everyone, there's somebody I really need to fire from my game, what's the best way to do it while sparing his feelings?" thread in a few months.