Spiderman: Far from home

[Rodin]

Peter being Tony's apprentice when in the comics Spider-Man was around first and PEter is smarter than Tony by a wide margin is just another case of weird decisions.

It's not really a weird decision when you look at how the movies were made. When the MCU was conceived, they didn't have the rights to Spiderman. They decided to go with Iron Man, and as the other genius scientist (Hulk/Bruce Banner) also had weird licensing issues Iron Man became the de facto "smart guy" with Banner moonlighting in the Avengers movies.

And then, the miracle happens - they get the rights to bring Spiderman to the MCU. So, where do you fit him in? Do you introduce him as a brilliant scientist who is smarter than Tony Stark (genius, billionaire, philanthropist) and somehow having been around for longer and been more experienced when Tony has saved the world enough times that he's starting to get PTSD over it? Why was Peter Parker just hanging around Queens not doing anything when New York was attacked?

The easiest explanation is also the simplest: Peter Parker was a kid at the time and had yet to have his encounter with a radioactive spider. That pegs his age, his experience level, and his scientific knowledge at pretty specific levels. You can push his age upwards a bit by changing when he got bit, but that also changes his backstory of being a high school superhero. He becomes Tony's apprentice because Tony had been leading a team of superheroes for years and was also a good 20-30 years older.

In short: There were different ways they could have gone about it, but given the history of the MCU I don't feel it was weird in the slightest.

[Rater202]

I'm aware that there's a street-level group called the defenders. That doesn't make them the Defenders.

As for Peter being smarter than Tony... It doesn't fluctuate that much.

I mean, let's look at the early Iron Man Storys: Tony with access to high-grade weapons parts is able to construct a crude armor and once he has access to his fortune and resources he... Paints it gold.

His crowning achievement is making the same armor 54 times and it's a little bit better each time.

Peter's very first story has him casually create a miracle adhesive that is strong enough to keep the Incredible Hulk pinned down, can function as both an insulator and a conductor, and dissolves without a trace after a few hours. He did this in ten minutes, on a whim, with stuff that he had in a storebought children's chemistry set--and people can't figure out how he did it, even with months of studying the formula.

He chased this up in Amazing Spider-Man #2 by inventing a handhold device that essentially gives him absolute control of electromagnetism(Which has been referred to as recently as 2014) out of parts he just had laying around.

To reiterate, Peter Parker, in the comics, while still in high school, made one of the four fundamental forces of reality his bitch using literally only scraps. While Tony was still clunking around in the Mark 1.

@Rodin.

You don't need to mark him as being a genius scientist better than Tony who just wasn't mentioned anywhere.

But tieing him to Tony was a weird choice and Peter was smarter than Tony as a teenager in the comics. The thing to do would have been to leave him as a street-level independent who makes miracles on a limited budget and/or have Nick Fury mentor him like in the Ultimate Universe.

[Ramza00]

Peter's very first story has him casually create a miracle adhesive that is strong enough to keep the Incredible Hulk pinned down, can function as both an insulator and a conductor, and dissolves without a trace after a few hours. He did this in ten minutes, on a whim, with stuff that he had in a storebought children's chemistry set--and people can't figure out how he did it, even with months of studying the formula.

He chased this up in Amazing Spider-Man #2 by inventing a handhold device that essentially gives him absolute control of electromagnetism(Which has been referred to as recently as 2014) out of parts he just had laying around.

To reiterate, Peter Parker, in the comics, while still in high school, made one of the four fundamental forces of reality his bitch using literally only scraps. While Tony was still clunking around in the Mark 1.

Sigh, you understand what non-sense is right? It is a story it does not have to make sense.

[Delicious Taffy]

Wow, these characters and stories are fake?? This incredible new information is blowing my mind!

[Dienekes]

I'm aware that there's a street-level group called the defenders. That doesn't make them the Defenders.

As for Peter being smarter than Tony... It doesn't fluctuate that much.

I mean, let's look at the early Iron Man Storys: Tony with access to high-grade weapons parts is able to construct a crude armor and once he has access to his fortune and resources he... Paints it gold.

His crowning achievement is making the same armor 54 times and it's a little bit better each time.

Peter's very first story has him casually create a miracle adhesive that is strong enough to keep the Incredible Hulk pinned down, can function as both an insulator and a conductor, and dissolves without a trace after a few hours. He did this in ten minutes, on a whim, with stuff that he had in a storebought children's chemistry set--and people can't figure out how he did it, even with months of studying the formula.

He chased this up in Amazing Spider-Man #2 by inventing a handhold device that essentially gives him absolute control of electromagnetism(Which has been referred to as recently as 2014) out of parts he just had laying around.

To reiterate, Peter Parker, in the comics, while still in high school, made one of the four fundamental forces of reality his bitch using literally only scraps. While Tony was still clunking around in the Mark 1.

@Rodin.

You don't need to mark him as being a genius scientist better than Tony who just wasn't mentioned anywhere.

But tieing him to Tony was a weird choice and Peter was smarter than Tony as a teenager in the comics. The thing to do would have been to leave him as a street-level independent who makes miracles on a limited budget and/or have Nick Fury mentor him like in the Ultimate Universe.

Mate. Tony has literally turned his blood into steel. Developed the worlds best nanotechnology beating Pym at his own game, developed a clean nearly limitless fuel source, and developed a countermeasure system that tracks and neutralizes Asgardian level threats. He also somewhere along that line figured out how to develop elemental control or some nonsense.

I mean he isn’t Mr Fantastic levels of create a machine that can create anything. But just lowering his accomplishments to builds suits is grossly diminishing his accomplishments in nonsensical bull**** physics.

[Rater202]

Mate. Tony has literally turned his blood into steel. Developed the worlds best nanotechnology beating Pym at his own game, developed a clean nearly limitless fuel source, and developed a countermeasure system that tracks and neutralizes Asgardian level threats. He also somewhere along that line figured out how to develop elemental control or some nonsense.

I mean he isn’t Mr Fantastic levels of create a machine that can create anything. But just lowering his accomplishments to builds suits is grossly diminishing his accomplishments in nonsensical bull**** physics.

1: Everyone's beaten Pym at his own game. Pym is the designated Science Jobber of the marvel universe. For the record, Peter's Spider-tracers, the ones that interface directly with his spider-sense, work on the exact same principals as Pym's ant control helmet and Hank had a fit when he realized that a teenager on a shoe-sting budget did in days what took him years and cost a fortune to do.

2: Peter Parker has also created not one but two sources of functionally infinite clean power--Parker Particles when he was with Horizon Labs and the Plasma Breeder with Parker Industries. A sibgle Plasma Breeder is said to be powerful enough to power a small country.

But let's face it. That's not what he's known for. And Tony's ot known for any of the stuff you cited.

Peter's known for inventing an ultra-powerful and durable miracle adhesive on a whim out of store-bought chemistry set chemicals and Tony's known for building the same armor 54 times, slightly better each time.

[Douglas]

Peter's known for inventing an ultra-powerful and durable miracle adhesive on a whim out of store-bought chemistry set chemicals and Tony's known for building the same armor 54 times, slightly better each time.

"Armor" that can make a single person more militarily powerful than many entire countries, even with the early versions.

[zimmerwald1915]

He chased this up in Amazing Spider-Man #2 by inventing a handhold device that essentially gives him absolute control of electromagnetism

I want to make a joke about Magneto, but nothing comes to mind.

[GloatingSwine]

Marvel Comics persistently treat Tony Stark as one of the peak Smart Guy heroes, and persistently do not treat Peter Parker as one.

It doesn't matter what individual things Peter has done, Tony is the one the comics go to when they want a tech genius who isn't Reed.


Also, Peter is consistently presented as the everyman hero, he's always going to snap back to that state as a relatively normal guy, the hero who has trouble making rent and dealing with his personal life because of his responsibilities, no matter what his current presentation may be. He's always a little bit of an outsider to all the teams and groups, because he's still got his feet on the ground and an outwardly normal life to deal with. And even in the comics he's accepted tech and resource help from Tony.


In the current state of the MCU, starting with a younger version of Peter captures all that succinctly because it addresses the question of why he's an outsider to the big teams, and why he fits in that unique position he does as the hero with dirt on his boots.

[Saph]

I always thought that the idea is that Peter Parker and Reed Richards are better at science, but Tony Stark's better at engineering.

In terms of research breakthroughs, the stuff that Peter and Reed pull off is more impressive. But Tony Stark's much better at getting the most out of the technology he has. That's why Iron Man mostly fights with lasers, missiles, and repulsor beams, while Spider-Man mostly fights by doing acrobatics and punching and kicking the bad guys really fast.

[Rater202]

Marvel Comics persistently treat Tony Stark as one of the peak Smart Guy heroes, and persistently do not treat Peter Parker as one.

It doesn't matter what individual things Peter has done, Tony is the one the comics go to when they want a tech genius who isn't Reed.

...you're confusing being treated as a genius for being treated as someone who has a budget and time to get multiple doctorates.

Peter Parker is consistantly depicted as one of the smartest people in the world--hell, he is explicitly on Reed's level: His College test scores were equal to Reed's in the same subject, Reed is genuinely impressed with Peter's intellect and inventions, Peter was a vital part of the original incarnation of the Future Foundation(the think Tank,) Peter during Peter's time with the FF he was involved in a second Think Tank that otherwise consisted of Reed Richards and Reed's suer genius enemies having called a truce, Peter Parker independently discovered what were later named "Parker Particles" and how to safely tap them for energy when Reed had previously discovered them and gave up on using them safely.

[Ramza00]

Spider-Lore question, does Spider-Man have any A or B list female villains that are not gender swapped versions of an already existing Spider-Man villian? So far I can think of these following women villians for Spider-Man.

Black Cat (which is A or B list),
Silver Sable (obscure not A or B list),
Grey Goblin (obscure),
Some of the Venom 90's Maximum Carnage characters such as Shriek, Scream, etc.

I am not counting Spider-Verse spin off female villains who are not villains to Peter Parker but villains to other Spider-Adjacent-Heroes like Gwen Stacey and Jessica Drew.

Is that it? Is Black Cat the only major Spider-Man villain who is a women?

[Bartmanhomer]

Ok I saw the movie early this morning in IMAX and these are my thoughts about the movie:

Spoiler: My Thoughts About Spider-Man: Far From Home

Show

Ok I saw the movie and it was great. It was about Spider-Man and his friends and teacher went to a trip to Europe at Venice, Italy. There was a new threat know as the Elementals want to destroy Earth. A new hero known a Quentin Beck AKA Mysterio trying to stop the Elementals. My favourite part during the Water Elemental fight that Peter Parker used a Super Mario Bros. Move by jumping from building to building. Instant Classic. Also MJ found out that Peter Parker was Spider-Man which she already knew that. And also it's was no big surprise that Mysterio was the main villain the whole time trying to fool everybody thinking that the Elementals were real. This movie has everything. There was action and comedy. The special effects was outstanding. This movie is definitely Oscar-worthy. I'll give this movie 5 out of 5 stars.

[Dienekes]

1: Everyone's beaten Pym at his own game. Pym is the designated Science Jobber of the marvel universe. For the record, Peter's Spider-tracers, the ones that interface directly with his spider-sense, work on the exact same principals as Pym's ant control helmet and Hank had a fit when he realized that a teenager on a shoe-sting budget did in days what took him years and cost a fortune to do.

2: Peter Parker has also created not one but two sources of functionally infinite clean power--Parker Particles when he was with Horizon Labs and the Plasma Breeder with Parker Industries. A sibgle Plasma Breeder is said to be powerful enough to power a small country.

But let's face it. That's not what he's known for. And Tony's ot known for any of the stuff you cited.

Peter's known for inventing an ultra-powerful and durable miracle adhesive on a whim out of store-bought chemistry set chemicals and Tony's known for building the same armor 54 times, slightly better each time.

You have to pick what we’re arguing over. If it’s Marvel deep cuts or what a character is known for. If it’s deep cuts then they’ve both created stupid powerful reality breaking nonsense. If it’s what they’re known for, Stark has the “impossible” arc reactor and hulk busting armor and Spiderman has really cool glue. You can pump up whichever one you want to be more impressive. But they’re both just fantasy, whose difficulty in creation is entirely up to the writer because both are impossible.

Spider-Lore question, does Spider-Man have any A or B list female villains that are not gender swapped versions of an already existing Spider-Man villian? So far I can think of these following women villians for Spider-Man.

Black Cat (which is A or B list),
Silver Sable (obscure not A or B list),
Grey Goblin (obscure),
Some of the Venom 90's Maximum Carnage characters such as Shriek, Scream, etc.

I am not counting Spider-Verse spin off female villains who are not villains to Peter Parker but villains to other Spider-Adjacent-Heroes like Gwen Stacey and Jessica Drew.

Is that it? Is Black Cat the only major Spider-Man villain who is a women?

White Rabbit was unfortunately considered a popular villain for a while.

[Anteros]

Spider-Lore question, does Spider-Man have any A or B list female villains that are not gender swapped versions of an already existing Spider-Man villian? So far I can think of these following women villians for Spider-Man.

Black Cat (which is A or B list),
Silver Sable (obscure not A or B list),
Grey Goblin (obscure),
Some of the Venom 90's Maximum Carnage characters such as Shriek, Scream, etc.

I am not counting Spider-Verse spin off female villains who are not villains to Peter Parker but villains to other Spider-Adjacent-Heroes like Gwen Stacey and Jessica Drew.

Is that it? Is Black Cat the only major Spider-Man villain who is a women?

Shriek is female and I don't consider her obscure, although some might.

It's just part of life for heroes that had most of their identity established in an era where hitting women (no matter the circumstance) was seen as something a hero shouldn't do.

[Friv]

Shriek is female and I don't consider her obscure, although some might.

It's just part of life for heroes that had most of their identity established in an era where hitting women (no matter the circumstance) was seen as something a hero shouldn't do.

I mean, we say that, but the X-Men managed it relatively often, and there are a decent number of female Avengers villains. I think it's just that Spiderman got lucky enough to develop a really strong rogue's gallery early, and it didn't change a lot.

I was going to suggest Alisha Silvermane, but looking her up she was animated-only.

[GloatingSwine]

...you're confusing being treated as a genius for being treated as someone who has a budget and time to get multiple doctorates.

Peter Parker is consistantly depicted as one of the smartest people in the world--hell, he is explicitly on Reed's level: His College test scores were equal to Reed's in the same subject, Reed is genuinely impressed with Peter's intellect and inventions, Peter was a vital part of the original incarnation of the Future Foundation(the think Tank,) Peter during Peter's time with the FF he was involved in a second Think Tank that otherwise consisted of Reed Richards and Reed's suer genius enemies having called a truce, Peter Parker independently discovered what were later named "Parker Particles" and how to safely tap them for energy when Reed had previously discovered them and gave up on using them safely.

Well no.

I'm not talking about them in-universe but how the franchise as a whole uses them as narrative components.

If a book which doesn't already feature Peter Parker in a reasonably central role is in want of a science guy to advance the plot, Peter Parker is pretty low down on the list of characters who will appear in that book.

As an example, when Civil War ran in the comics Tony and Reed both did science things in the plot, Peter was the everyman who revealed his secret identity. Tony's in Official Smart* People club (the Illuminati), Peter isn't. Etc.



* Okay the Illuminati are pretty dumb quite often, see World War Hulk, but I didn't say it was the official wise people club.

[Kitten Champion]

The last Spider-Man villain to be created that I'd categorize as A-tier was, like, Venom/Carnage. There are female villains created since which I've liked - such as the current Beetle - but nothing with the general public awareness of the villains from the 90's Spider-Man cartoon that could be called "major".

Black Cat and Silver Sable were getting their own Venom-esque Spider-Man-sans-Spider-Man-character-movie but apparently it fell apart and it's on indefinite delay. Regardless, I don't think they'll be in a MCU Spider-Man movie anymore than Venom will be.

[Rater202]

Spider-Lore question, does Spider-Man have any A or B list female villains that are not gender swapped versions of an already existing Spider-Man villian? So far I can think of these following women villians for Spider-Man.

Black Cat (which is A or B list),
Silver Sable (obscure not A or B list),
Grey Goblin (obscure),
Some of the Venom 90's Maximum Carnage characters such as Shriek, Scream, etc.

I am not counting Spider-Verse spin off female villains who are not villains to Peter Parker but villains to other Spider-Adjacent-Heroes like Gwen Stacey and Jessica Drew.

Is that it? Is Black Cat the only major Spider-Man villain who is a women?

Grey Goblin is a young man.

[Ramza00]

I was going to suggest Alisha Silvermane, but looking her up she was animated-only.

Alisha Silvermane is still a Gender Swapped / Family Member of an Original Rogue Gallery.

I love Olivia "Liv" Octavius...



...but we have to acknowledge she is a simulacra of the Original. A simulacra that Surpassed the Original, but still it is a simulacra that does not stand alone...yet in the Public Consciousness. ("But there is no rule that an imitation cannot defeat the original. If you say you are the original, I shall surpass every one of your" [ octopi arms])

-----

Of course this creates a problem with family members for when do the children become their own things? Is Talia al Ghul her own villain, or is she merely a lackey and family member to Ra's al Ghul?

Grey Goblin is a young man.

There are two Grey Goblins.

Norman Osborn Son via Gwen Stacey who is known as Gabriel. Gabriel Stacy also has a twin sister Sarah Stacy.

The other Grey Goblin is Lily Hollister, Harry Osborn's ex-fiance. She goes by the name Grey Goblin, Menace, and Queen Cat. I was refering to Lily Hollister when I was talking about Female Super Villains in Spider-Man's line up.

[Anteros]

I mean, we say that, but the X-Men managed it relatively often, and there are a decent number of female Avengers villains. I think it's just that Spiderman got lucky enough to develop a really strong rogue's gallery early, and it didn't change a lot.

I was going to suggest Alisha Silvermane, but looking her up she was animated-only.

It's always odd to hear people say that, because I personally consider most of Spidey's rogues gallery to be pretty weak. Outside of Norman Osborn (in his non goblin roles) and Venom/Carnage they're all pretty cartoony and gimmicky. They've started to flesh Ock out as a real character in recent years, so that's something at least.

[Dienekes]

It's always odd to hear people say that, because I personally consider most of Spidey's rogues gallery to be pretty weak. Outside of Norman Osborn (in his non goblin roles) and Venom/Carnage they're all pretty cartoony and gimmicky. They've started to flesh Ock out as a real character in recent years, so that's something at least.

Oh they're all very gimmicky. But they own their gimmicks and they have enjoyable gimmicks. People remember fishbowlhead, octopus scientist, stingerbutt, and the rest. Are they high concept multifaceted characters? No. They're still great though.

[Rater202]

It's always odd to hear people say that, because I personally consider most of Spidey's rogues gallery to be pretty weak. Outside of Norman Osborn (in his non goblin roles) and Venom/Carnage they're all pretty cartoony and gimmicky. They've started to flesh Ock out as a real character in recent years, so that's something at least.

I mean, most of Spider-Man's rogues gallery was catylized and became iconic when Lee was still writing.

Lee primarily wrote the kind of stories that he'd like to see.

Cartoony, gimmicky villains against a wisecracking hero hiding a secret pain is basically what Spider-Man was all about.

But more specifically, people say that Spider-Man has a well-developed rogues gallery becuase there's a degree of emotional intimacy between Spider-Man and most of his rogues.

Take Spider-Man: Renw Your Vows, an AU in a timeline where the Civil War never happened, so PEter never outed himself, so aunt may never got shot, he never made the deal with Mephisto.

In the second volume(the original volume was a five part mini as part of Secret Wars 2015 so there are some slight continuity differences to account for being a regular earth vs battle world,) a backup story indicates that Peter trusts Sandman to watch his kid for a few minutes becuase he knows that Mako isn't going to hurt a kid.

He comes back and they're making sandcastles.

Peter's rogues are well defined becuase Peter, and by extension we the audience, know them as people. We know what motivates them and makes them tick.

[Kato]

It's always odd to hear people say that, because I personally consider most of Spidey's rogues gallery to be pretty weak. Outside of Norman Osborn (in his non goblin roles) and Venom/Carnage they're all pretty cartoony and gimmicky. They've started to flesh Ock out as a real character in recent years, so that's something at least.

Okay, I'll probably expose myself as a total noob but didn't Octavius get huge time in the spot light / development when he was Superior Spiderman and wasn't that quite a while ago? Or am I getting something totally wrong here?
(also, I remember some good things about Lizard, but my memory is much more foggy on that)

[Anteros]

Okay, I'll probably expose myself as a total noob but didn't Octavius get huge time in the spot light / development when he was Superior Spiderman and wasn't that quite a while ago? Or am I getting something totally wrong here?
(also, I remember some good things about Lizard, but my memory is much more foggy on that)

He did, and then they reset his development, and now they're finally starting to go back to it. It's comics so characters aren't allowed to grow or change without resetting over and over.

I mean, most of Spider-Man's rogues gallery was catylized and became iconic when Lee was still writing.

Lee primarily wrote the kind of stories that he'd like to see.

Cartoony, gimmicky villains against a wisecracking hero hiding a secret pain is basically what Spider-Man was all about.

But more specifically, people say that Spider-Man has a well-developed rogues gallery becuase there's a degree of emotional intimacy between Spider-Man and most of his rogues.

Take Spider-Man: Renw Your Vows, an AU in a timeline where the Civil War never happened, so PEter never outed himself, so aunt may never got shot, he never made the deal with Mephisto.

In the second volume(the original volume was a five part mini as part of Secret Wars 2015 so there are some slight continuity differences to account for being a regular earth vs battle world,) a backup story indicates that Peter trusts Sandman to watch his kid for a few minutes becuase he knows that Mako isn't going to hurt a kid.

He comes back and they're making sandcastles.

Peter's rogues are well defined becuase Peter, and by extension we the audience, know them as people. We know what motivates them and makes them tick.

That doesn't tell me anything other than the fact that alternate universe Spidey is a bad parent. Even if you're reasonably sure the guy who tried to murder you hundreds of times won't take the grudge out on your kid, there's still a whole lot of qualifications you'd want in a babysitter that a super villain doesn't exactly meet.

[Rater202]

Okay, I'll probably expose myself as a total noob but didn't Octavius get huge time in the spot light / development when he was Superior Spiderman and wasn't that quite a while ago? Or am I getting something totally wrong here?
(also, I remember some good things about Lizard, but my memory is much more foggy on that)

Superior onward.

Octavious is technically still dead but a copy of him is running around uploaded into a composite clone made of his own and Peter Parker's DNA and he still ha Peter's memories.

Initially he was operating as a villain as "Superior Octopus," even going so far as to sign on with HYDRA during Secret Empire becuase they were trying to get PI under their control and he wanted the company he made back under his control.

However, in Go Gown Swinging--Dan Slott's last Spider-Man storyline before Nick Spencer took over--he intervenes to save Aunt May* from a Carnage possessed Normie Osborn and if badly hurt as a result. Peter decides then and there that saving his aunt makes things good between him and Otto, and Otto moves cross country to California to be a Superhero after being told the slate is clean. Next we see him is in Spider-Gheddon and now there's a second volume of Superior Spider-Man.

Last we saw him was in the War of the Realms tie-in, he may or may not be part of the West Coast Avengers now(their series got canceled so we have to wait and see if they show up in more Superior issues.)

[Ramza00]

Oh they're all very gimmicky. But they own their gimmicks and they have enjoyable gimmicks. People remember fishbowlhead, octopus scientist, stingerbutt, and the rest. Are they high concept multifaceted characters? No. They're still great though.

They are neighborhood level threats the Spider-Man 🕷️ villians. Not the power level where the villians are a threat for they are the head of multinational corporations where the corporations have armies that can take over a country. No the Spider-Man rogue gallery is middle management where the mid tied people can do lasting damage to the neighborhood but they are not going to destabilize a nation state.

Now of course there are exceptions to this. Norman Osborn and Kingpin are supposed to be those nation state level threats with armies, much like Superman's Lex Luthor. And to justify their power and comic repeatability these rich jerks have to be rich but also diabolically smart in a. Machiavellian sense or they would been replace by other cut throat villians long ago.

The reason why Spider-Man villians are memorable is for they are enduring, we see the every man in the Spider-Man villians even if it's mixed with camp, theatrics, and silliness. Note this also applies to the Batman rogue galley even though Batman is the opposite of an Everyman, but his rogues are grounded as mid tied city level threats and not unstoppable super villians.

[The Glyphstone]

So I watched Homecoming on Friday as preparation for watching this yesterday. Overall it wasn't a bad movie, but I think Homecoming was a decidedly superior product.

Spoiler

Show

I've read that Homecoming was a deliberate love letter to the John Hughes style coming-of-age teen drama, which probably shows why I've never wanted to see Ferris Bueller or Breakfast Club. The bulk of the movie was Peter failing and screwing up worse than if he had never gotten involved at all, which was a painful slog to sit through for the obvious eventual payoff of his success. And it bothers me more than it probably should that the one line which basically sums up Tony Stark's entire character arc ("If you need the suit to be a hero, you don't deserve it") is relegated to a throwaway line in a Spiderman movie.

Mysterio was far less sympathetic than Vulture, since his version of the 'screwed over by Tony Stark' backstory was both self-justified and ultimately well-deserved. The fight scenes were more spectacular and his illusion-mastery tech was exactly as surreal as it deserved, but ultimately Beck just wasn't as good of a character as Toomes, Gyllenhall's excellent efforts notwithstanding.

The weird sidelining of Ned was sort of jarring. He really irritated me through about 90% of Homecoming, and it's amazing Peter trusts him to do literally anything at this point without screwing it up or embarrassing Peter somehow. But he felt like he was barely in the movie at all except for the obligatory punchlines.

They're finally advancing the Peter/MJ romance, but I'm not sure I like this MJ yet. Her sarcastic anti-social attitude makes her a very awkward foil for Peter's dorky earnestness, so it's difficult to see them as a stable or healthy couple.

My problems with Nick Fury were solved, rather brilliantly, by the post-credits scene.

[weckar]

Saw it the other day.

Dutch Tourist Board approved.

[Kyberwulf]

Oh yeah, I forgot about "MJ" lol. He being "Edgy" was really annoying. When she dropped that part of her character, halfway for that little bit and just was.... human? she was ALOT more cooler.