Spiderman: Far from home

[Reddish Mage]

i imagine the intention is for Beck to take and reverse-engineer the technology, use the nannites to make a nano-tech mysterio suit for himself, not wear the iron-spider suit as-is.

to be fair, if he had access to better tech like the suit, or even EDITH really, and he WASN'T actively trying to be a villain, i could see him using the technology to actually fight real threats in the same way Tony did. He'd just also be using some illusions to either confuse the enemy, or make his own attacks look more flashy.

This plan then looks like the “Mysterio as the (wannabe) real hero” rewrite idea I spent several pages of the thread explaining why it wouldn’t work in detail. That idea was already fully played out on this thread and recently.

[Psyren]

While we've been over all the ways EDITH is a dumb idea already beaten to death the rest of these changes are pretty superfluous. You can take EDITH out of the movie, Mysterio can have the drone tech on his own (which he already did in fact for the first four elementals), and almost everything plays out in the exact same way.

That's kind of the point. Like I said, I liked the movie overall (a lot), I just think EDITH is dumb. Having the movie's broad strokes play out exactly the same way without EDITH is exactly what I want.

Nando goes further to rewrite the entire movie around the Iron Spider Suit as EDITH substitute. The problem with this concept is, two-fold: First the Iron Spider Suit is a suit. Its custom clothing made for Peter Parker. Beck clearly can't fit in it. Moreover, the tech is very distinctive even if it somehow could stretch, Mysterio wearing the suit wouldn't be Mysterio, he'd be Spider-man... or Night-Monkey.

Missing the point. We've seen three examples of true nanotech in the MCU - Tony's suit in Infinity War/Endgame (destroyed), T'challa's latest suit (under lock and key in Wakanda) and the Iron Spider suit that he launched at Peter. It's nanotech, it doesn't have to be an actual spidersuit once Beck gets his hands on it - what he truly wants is technology that is as close to magic as anything we've seen in the MCU short of whatever the heck Asgardians use.

Moreover, the plot about Peter learning that he's more than a suit was the entire point of Homecoming. Homecoming did that. Nando wants to repeat that arc because he hates the aesthetics of a Spider-Man with access to a real lab and support team. He calls his video "The Iron Spider Mistake." Clearly, Nando is much more disturbed by MCU's Spiderman having a fancy suit than he is about EDITH.

I think Peter's current suit (i.e. the one he made himself during FHH) is perfectly fine. No AI jabbering in his ear, no precision drone strikes, no kill mode etc. Some specialty webs like the web ball and the zappy webs. And most importantly, expressive eyes.

Finally, Nando wants to fix the fridge-logic hole point that Beck, being a fake without real powers, should be exposed sooner or later when the next threat to Earth emerges and the Avengers are around (although there's a plot point about how they all appear to be busy). Only, it doesn't fix that point. Beck's original plan still sucks, the plan 2.0 once Peter gives him the suit is still basically to carry on only do it bigger with fancy new tech.

No, being the only guy with true nanotech outside of Wakanda would definitely allow him to be a hero.

I'm sure there could be something else to fill in the space EDITH takes up. However, like the last attempt at suggesting a fix, this one is a swing and a miss.

With respect, your opinion of what constitutes a miss only solidifies my appreciation for this idea. I think it's pretty clear that our tastes don't gel at all.

Regardless, we both ended up where we want to be - Peter has a cool tech suit (without being Ironman 2.0), and EDITH is nothing but a bad memory.

[Kornaki]

I don't understand people saying mysterio couldn't handle an avenger level threat with good tech and know-how when that's literally what iron man was.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't understand people saying mysterio couldn't handle an avenger level threat with good tech and know-how when that's literally what iron man was.

Because Iron Man didn't take on any Avengers level threats alone. He took on Iron Man level threats, and when he was up against an Avengers level threat he had the other Avengers to help.

Mysterio wants to be a solo superhero doing the work of an entire superhero team - or, at least, making himself look like one.

[Ranxerox]

I don't understand people saying mysterio couldn't handle an avenger level threat with good tech and know-how when that's literally what iron man was.

Because Tony actually shows up for his fights. The only time Beck actually is actually physically present for the fight is in the walkway fight with Peter at the end (and maybe not even then). In every other fight it is just hologram of Mysterio that appears to be flying around fighting the foe. He only appears in the flesh after the supposed enemy is vanquished, such as after he came out from doing his seeming apparent kamikaze dive into the fire elemental projection.

So sure he could send the drones to fight an Avenger level threat, but he isn't going to be there to direct the drones in person and the enemy isn't going to be following his script. So, if he is just going to be the man directing the drones from a safe room somewhere, then why him? Why not find someone who knows how to do more than stage a fight. Find Ender from Ender's Game, not some guy who knows how to stage an exciting action sequence.

[Kornaki]

Because Tony actually shows up for his fights. The only time Beck actually is actually physically present for the fight is in the walkway fight with Peter at the end (and maybe not even then). In every other fight it is just hologram of Mysterio that appears to be flying around fighting the foe. He only appears in the flesh after the supposed enemy is vanquished, such as after he came out from doing his seeming apparent kamikaze dive into the fire elemental projection.

So sure he could send the drones to fight an Avenger level threat, but he isn't going to be there to direct the drones in person and the enemy isn't going to be following his script. So, if he is just going to be the man directing the drones from a safe room somewhere, then why him? Why not find someone who knows how to do more than stage a fight. Find Ender from Ender's Game, not some guy who knows how to stage an exciting action sequence.

I agree other people could do the job well. Presumably being smart helps, and he's got that. He could spend more time developing actual hero technology later, he and his team were mostly inventors already.

[Bartmanhomer]

I know that are some heroes and villains who uses illusion in the Marvel Universe. (Technology or Magic) I just can't seem to name them other than Mysterio.

[Sholos]

I know that are some heroes and villains who uses illusion in the Marvel Universe. (Technology or Magic) I just can't seem to name them other than Mysterio.

Did you forget Loki?

[Bartmanhomer]

Did you forget Loki?

Oh yeah. I forgot about him. Thank you for reminding me.

[Ramza00]

I know that are some heroes and villains who uses illusion in the Marvel Universe. (Technology or Magic) I just can't seem to name them other than Mysterio.

The main ones are Mastermind (the creep in the Dark Phoenix saga), Loki, Mysterio, Selene, Mesmero.

Plus a dozen other characters psionics and magical who are not mainly illusionists but have multiple abilities and just use illusions to augment their repitore.

[Bartmanhomer]

The main ones are Mastermind (the creep in the Dark Phoenix saga), Loki, Mysterio, Selene, Mesmero.

Plus a dozen other characters psionics and magical who are not mainly illusionists but have multiple abilities and just use illusions to augment their repitore.

Well I guess my work here is done. LOL!

[weckar]

Relevant to Spider-Man: Jackal dabbles in that sort of thing. With the Skrull about that is just the sort of character hey may bring in...

[Delicious Taffy]

Relevant to Spider-Man: Jackal dabbles in that sort of thing. With the Skrull about that is just the sort of character hey may bring in...

Ben Reilly for Spider-Man 3? That might be fun. Ooh, or Kaine.

[Talakeal]

It's nanotech, it doesn't have to be an actual spidersuit once Beck gets his hands on it - what he truly wants is technology that is as close to magic as anything we've seen in the MCU short of whatever the heck Asgardians use.

Wait, but we have seen actual magic in the MCU. How else do you explain Ant Man's card tricks?

[Reddish Mage]

That's kind of the point. Like I said, I liked the movie overall (a lot), I just think EDITH is dumb. Having the movie's broad strokes play out exactly the same way without EDITH is exactly what I want.



Missing the point. We've seen three examples of true nanotech in the MCU - Tony's suit in Infinity War/Endgame (destroyed), T'challa's latest suit (under lock and key in Wakanda) and the Iron Spider suit that he launched at Peter. It's nanotech, it doesn't have to be an actual spidersuit once Beck gets his hands on it - what he truly wants is technology that is as close to magic as anything we've seen in the MCU short of whatever the heck Asgardians use.



I think Peter's current suit (i.e. the one he made himself during FHH) is perfectly fine. No AI jabbering in his ear, no precision drone strikes, no kill mode etc. Some specialty webs like the web ball and the zappy webs. And most importantly, expressive eyes.



No, being the only guy with true nanotech outside of Wakanda would definitely allow him to be a hero.

With respect, your opinion of what constitutes a miss only solidifies my appreciation for this idea. I think it's pretty clear that our tastes don't gel at all.

Regardless, we both ended up where we want to be - Peter has a cool tech suit (without being Ironman 2.0), and EDITH is nothing but a bad memory.

I’m not sure what the respect is if you think the very fact I support something makes it wrong.

Also we seem to agree that the movie is fine broadly as is, without superhero Mysterio and EDITH was an unnecessary flourish. So you are agreeing with and then insulting my opinions generally.

That is not respectful or coherent.

Wait, but we have seen actual magic in the MCU. How else do you explain Ant Man's card tricks?

Pym particles

[kinem]

Wait, but we have seen actual magic in the MCU.

Strange that anyone would think we haven't

[Talakeal]

Strange that anyone would think we haven't

It is Strange, but who am I to judge?

[Bartmanhomer]

Wait, but we have seen actual magic in the MCU. How else do you explain Ant Man's card tricks?

I think the card tricks are mundane magic if I'm not mistaken.

[Delicious Taffy]

I think the card tricks are mundane magic if I'm not mistaken.

That's the joke.

[Bartmanhomer]

That's the joke.

Ok.

[Psyren]

I’m not sure what the respect is if you think the very fact I support something makes it wrong.

Actually, what I said was that the fact that you think something is "a miss" isn't much of a refutation in my eyes. It was a response to you stating your opinion as though it were objective fact when it's not.

Wait, but we have seen actual magic in the MCU. How else do you explain Ant Man's card tricks?

Whoops, that was meant to say "magitech" rather than "magic." Certainly true magic exists in the MCU but it doesn't appear to be something that just anyone can learn. (I mean, I'm sure the Ancient One would tell me that anyone CAN learn it, much in the way that anyone CAN be a neurosurgeon or learn a dozen languages, but you get my point.)

[Ramza00]

So the True Spider-Man Far From Home Post Credit Reveal Was

Spider-Man leaving the MCU.

Currently Spider-Man movies (not team up movies like the Avengers) Disney gets about 5% of the Gross. Disney wanted the split to be 50 / 50 with Disney paying more of the production costs and Sony decided this hard ball deal was not sweet enough.

Note it seems Tom Holland has 2 more movies in his contract with Sony. So this may get weird.

[Devonix]

So the True Spider-Man Far From Home Post Credit Reveal Was

Spider-Man leaving the MCU.

Currently Spider-Man movies (not team up movies like the Avengers) Disney gets about 5% of the Gross. Disney wanted the split to be 50 / 50 with Disney paying more of the production costs and Sony decided this hard ball deal was not sweet enough.

Note it seems Tom Holland has 2 more movies in his contract with Sony. So this may get weird.

Seems like Disney being greedy. Disney now wants 50 percent of the box office as well as everything else made on the film with Sony getting nothing but the half the box office which has always been the weakest portion of the money made from a movie any way.

It would be different if Disney offered to cut sony in on merchandise.

[The Glyphstone]

Marvel's probably regretting setting up Spidey to be the in-universe heir of Iron Man about now...

[Jayngfet]

The contract allows them to make one more MCU Spider-Man movie(or two more, I'm hearing conflicting reports). Holland can definitely round out the trilogy and maybe be in an Avengers movie but after that it's uncertain. but that covers Spider-Man's run in the MCU for about as long as Iron Man had.

Even then I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel and Sony reached an accord. A 95/5 and 50/50 split are pretty far apart and there's plenty of middle ground. The big thing to be aware of though is Sony now owns Insomniac, which produces the PS4 game and any sequels it would make. Meaning between Venom, the game, and Spider-Verse a lions share of Spider-Man's multimedia presence now has to go through Sony. So Sony has the game and film rights all snapped up and active even without Holland.

Realistically a 75/25 or 80/20 split would still be better than what they're getting but still keep Sony placated.

If Marvel absolutely had to replace Spider-Man it would be easy. Harley Keener is the same age and was Iron Lad in a spinoff comic. Given that Ultron killed Amadeus Cho's mom and Cassie Lang got aged up. Given that a skrull push would net you Hulkling and Dr. Strange has enough sorcerers about to justify Wiccan you could slot either of them into the techie-loudmouth role and round out the team more or less perfectly for the Young Avengers movie in development.

[Anteros]

I don't think it's that easy for Marvel to replace Spider-man. They've lost Iron man, they've lost Cap, and Thor's story seems to be basically over as well. Now they're losing Spidey. These are the flag ship characters for Marvel comics. I know they want to push their new wave of characters, but none of them have a spot in the public's consciousness like the originals did. It's not going to be impossible for them, but it's definitely going to be harder.

Combined with the whole super-hero fatigue that a lot of people are getting from the oversaturation...I really don't see the next wave of movies being anywhere near as successful. I'm sure they'll make plenty of money, but they won't be a cultural phenomenon like what we've had for the last decade.

[Gallowglass]

I don't think it's that easy for Marvel to replace Spider-man. They've lost Iron man, they've lost Cap, and Thor's story seems to be basically over as well. Now they're losing Spidey. These are the flag ship characters for Marvel comics. I know they want to push their new wave of characters, but none of them have a spot in the public's consciousness like the originals did. It's not going to be impossible for them, but it's definitely going to be harder.

Combined with the whole super-hero fatigue that a lot of people are getting from the oversaturation...I really don't see the next wave of movies being anywhere near as successful. I'm sure they'll make plenty of money, but they won't be a cultural phenomenon like what we've had for the last decade.

I mean, I really don't think, prior to 2008 and the first Iron Man movie that you could say that Iron Man or Thor were high in the public consciousness. Prior to 2008, if you asked any 100 people on the street to name three superheroes you'd get "superman, batman and spiderman" If you asked them "name three marvel superheroes" you'd get "superman, batman and spiderman."

Go try it now. I bet you get "Iron Man, Captain America and Thor" a great portion of the time.

I would argue that Marvel have build a structure now that they can introduce the black panthers and captain marvels of the universe and get buy in by the fan base. With or without Spiderman.

I keep waiting for fatigue to set in. Still waiting. Keep hearing how its going to happen now. Keep expecting it. Still waiting.

Personally, I think this spiderman thing will be bad for BOTH sides. Sony doesn't know how to make a superhero movie. Marvel really played out spiderman as the next big thing.

But I also thought it was a "good" thing for X-men to be farmed out to another studio because Marvel only has the infrastructure to make so many movies at a time and when it was farmed out we had two studios making movies so it shared the load.

[Malphegor]

Eh, I feel it'll work out. Comics work well on status quo. Franchise movies and tv shows... don't have to. Spider-Man's set up now as this guy taking up Tony's mantle, that doesn't necessarily mean he has to be a plot element for a long time. Hell, depending on how the Sony/Marvel deal shakes out eventually, he could be the 'guy in the chair', with minimal screentime, for whatever new Avengers/Defenders/Revengers team pops up from young heroes.

(in an ideal world we'd be having Sony making the Spider-Man movies in partnership with Marvel studios, consistently in tune with the MCU's beats and current status but vague enough that it could be considered stand-alone at will.)

As a side note, in my opinion, characters need to retire, plotlines need to move forward, otherwise things get boring. Death and retirement is good for creating space for new properties to bloom, otherwise you end up with 90s-style 'it feels like every Marvel comic contains Wolverine, Spider-Man, or those two teaming up' over-saturation.

I don't think Holland's done with Spider-Man, the character's got a million stories in him, but it can be slow.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think it's that easy for Marvel to replace Spider-man. They've lost Iron man, they've lost Cap, and Thor's story seems to be basically over as well. Now they're losing Spidey.

Off the top of my head: the next spiderman MCU movie ends with Spiderman losing his powers. Or a leg, as per the comics. Pepper Pots hires him for R&D. He starts using regular iron Man suits, or just builds them for the next spiderman-mold character.

There, lost Spiderman, not lost the character or the "next Iron Man" title.

Heck, Spiderman as the character is already practically dead. Spiderman is an adolescent struggling with responsibility & similar 15-20 yo issues. The movies can't keep him there, and as characterization grows, the further he gets from the "true" spiderman. Tom can transition to a different character.

Grey Wolf

[GloatingSwine]

Bear in mind there are no MCU crossover movies slated that would need Spidey to interact with any other MCU characters, so I don't think his role in the wider MCU to come is actually necessarily planned for at all.

Also, it's pretty easy to shuffle things around to replace Peter as the "young hero with a sense of adventure and heart" because, well, Kamala Khan is right there.