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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost49X View Post
    So most of the characters have been submitted. Some I still require sheets for.
    Considering we have 5 players (which total 15 characters) I'm going to cut it down to 2 characters per or 10 characters total. Which will be 1 only more character than I originally planned. We'll see how things go so there's an off chance that the characters left behind might eventually join us later.
    I think now that players can see what everyone else is going to bring to the table, things will be a bit easier for deciding who to cut and who to keep.
    Alrighty! Then Iíll cut out Caiphon. My submissions will be Zenith (Genasi Mage/Pyromancy school) and Illumia (Human Runepriest). Iíll cite everything where I can for now and fill in the numbers and such when Iím able to do so.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Personally, I'm rather fond of my Artificer the most, but I don't mind going with either my fighter or barbarian. Maybe slightly favoring the barb.
    Last edited by CateranEnforcer; 2019-07-27 at 05:34 PM.

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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    @MinotaurWarblad
    You mentioned Magic missiles early on. It came to mind that there are different versions of Magic Missiles flying around including items that work for one but not the other. Since they're both functionally different Wizard powers I'll let you choose which one you want to take, if you want you can even take both as separate at will powers.

    I've been talking to people and the topic of feat taxes came along. More specifically that some people may feel obligated to fit in Expertise and/or Improved Defences in somewhere into their build. I'm not really into the idea of giving out free feats but I wanted to know what players here felt. One potential alternative is to have items that provide similar buffs that don't stack with the feats, allowing characters more options to get their defences to where they're comfortable with them. Also this might not even be an issue with you guys since I gave you more than the normal amount of points for the point buy.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Eh, I usually give a free Expertise feat in games I run. Those are admited by the dev's as more than feat taxes, but actual math fixes to the way monster defenses rise faster than player attack bonuses. I like to give one out for free as bonus. Honestly the most important part is just the scaling to hit bonus. For that reason, I started it out with versatile expertise as the free feat. I later granted paragon defenses at 11 and epic defenses at 21. Those three feats are basically obsolete now that improved defenses and specialized expertise feats exist and they help with the math fixes without giving too much, if that worries you. I also fix the scaling of powers like dragonborn breath attacks that get no enhancement mods.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Quote Originally Posted by CateranEnforcer View Post
    Eh, I usually give a free Expertise feat in games I run. Those are admited by the dev's as more than feat taxes, but actual math fixes to the way monster defenses rise faster than player attack bonuses. I like to give one out for free as bonus. Honestly the most important part is just the scaling to hit bonus. For that reason, I started it out with versatile expertise as the free feat. I later granted paragon defenses at 11 and epic defenses at 21. Those three feats are basically obsolete now that improved defenses and specialized expertise feats exist and they help with the math fixes without giving too much, if that worries you. I also fix the scaling of powers like dragonborn breath attacks that get no enhancement mods.
    I'm fine with players taking the feats, I wanted to offer players the possibility of taking items for the same bonus if they feel like they're feat starved. As opposed to granting the feats for free. The feat wouldn't be stackable with the item(s) though.
    Last edited by Ghost49X; 2019-07-27 at 11:35 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost49X View Post
    @MinotaurWarblad
    You mentioned Magic missiles early on. It came to mind that there are different versions of Magic Missiles flying around including items that work for one but not the other. Since they're both functionally different Wizard powers I'll let you choose which one you want to take, if you want you can even take both as separate at will powers.

    I've been talking to people and the topic of feat taxes came along. More specifically that some people may feel obligated to fit in Expertise and/or Improved Defences in somewhere into their build. I'm not really into the idea of giving out free feats but I wanted to know what players here felt. One potential alternative is to have items that provide similar buffs that don't stack with the feats, allowing characters more options to get their defences to where they're comfortable with them. Also this might not even be an issue with you guys since I gave you more than the normal amount of points for the point buy.
    Oh sweet! Iíd love to grab both, then.

    Edit: Oh! Iíd like to get items to replicate expertise and defense feats, for sure. Especially since I want to enchant my own magic items.
    Last edited by MinotaurWarblad; 2019-07-27 at 11:47 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Quote Originally Posted by MinotaurWarblad View Post
    Oh sweet! Iíd love to grab both, then.

    Edit: Oh! Iíd like to get items to replicate expertise and defense feats, for sure. Especially since I want to enchant my own magic items.
    The feats won't be replicated exactly because they're items, thus they don't level with you. However a buff to a defence can be tacked on to something that gives a greater buff. Specialized Expertise Feats also give out bonuses that wouldn't be included if you wanted those. I'll put a few in the earlish loot as examples.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Well with two characters already made, then I'm all set with an Avenger and a Warden. They are a duo sent by their setting-appropriate Nature god to track down ancient secrets / items to empower their long-dwindling deity and stave off their disappearance from the pantheon.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Whaddya know! Pursuit avengers love Runepriest and Wizard allies.
    ē Wizards manipulate terrain more than any other controller, making Avenger censures trigger more often.
    ē Runepriests are big number boosters. At will damage bonuses are excellent on the already-accurate Avenger.

    Wizards and Runepriests love Warden allies.
    ē Wardens are very sticky, and are good at keeping enemies in the Wizardís zones.
    ē Runepriest dailies mesh very nicely with Warden guardian forms, since different ones provide different encounter-long benefits. As long as they donít boost the same things, popping a daily from each makes the Warden a combat monster. Especially once each has enough dailies to pop this combo every encounter.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Yeah I'm thinking I'm going to prefer my Artificer and Barbarian. They have the least number of questionable stuff I suppose with mark of storm + deadly draw out of the picture. I was looking at the Noble theme for my Artificer from Dragon 399 as well as the Crossbow Caster feat from Dragon 381 and Eldritch Fusillade Expertise from Dragon 402. For the Barbarian, I was looking at the Gladiator Theme from Dark Sun.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Quote Originally Posted by CateranEnforcer View Post
    Yeah I'm thinking I'm going to prefer my Artificer and Barbarian. They have the least number of questionable stuff I suppose with mark of storm + deadly draw out of the picture. I was looking at the Noble theme for my Artificer from Dragon 399 as well as the Crossbow Caster feat from Dragon 381 and Eldritch Fusillade Expertise from Dragon 402. For the Barbarian, I was looking at the Gladiator Theme from Dark Sun.
    Mechanically the crossbow stuff is fine, thought I'd like to hear how you rationalize using your powers from your Crossbow. Especially ones that focus on supporting your allies.

    The Gladiator on the otherhand I have small issues with some of it's powers (nothing you can start with).

    The first of which is Infuriating Challenge.
    A Reliable power with an effect that lasts until the end of the encounter with no way to shake it seems a bit much. Maybe you lose the effect if you get knocked unconscious? Still going to last the encounter most times while giving the monsters some hope to escape it. Especially since it's something you can spam until you hit.

    The second of which is Bloody Blades, of which is more a wording issue.
    "Effect: You can assume the stance of the bloody blades. Until the stance ends, as a free action you can deal damage equal to your primary ability modifier to any enemy that starts its turn adjacent to you. Any enemy you deal damage to cannot shift until the end of your next turn."
    I'd read that as dealing damage through this power prevents the enemies from shifting.

    Your thoughts on the above?

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Hereís Zenith (genasi mage). I decided to nab only the version of Magic Missile from Heroes of the Fallen Lands since Storm Pillar and Unravelling Dart are favorites of mine; neither should be used every turn, but are fantastic if the group capitalizes on forced movement and vulnerabilities. Theyíre essentially backup options, while Magic Missile is his go-to.
    Also, hereís his handler, Illumia (human runepriest). She will probably use Word of Diminishment a lot with this group being so large, since the vulnerability option it provides will provide significantly more damage than the rune of destruction benefits of her other at will powers.

    Iíll make sure to cite all sources thoroughly and completely when iím able.
    Last edited by MinotaurWarblad; 2019-07-29 at 12:08 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Quote Originally Posted by MinotaurWarblad View Post
    Hereís Zenith (genasi mage). I decided to nab only the version of Magic Missile from Heroes of the Fallen Lands since Storm Pillar and Unravelling Dart are favorites of mine; neither should be used every turn, but are fantastic if the group capitalizes on forced movement and vulnerabilities. Theyíre essentially backup options, while Magic Missile is his go-to.
    Ok, as long as you know that a lot of the buffs for magic missile don't work with the HoFL version as most require a "hit" to take effect.
    While looking at his sheet, it was noticed that he took a Shadar-Kai racial feat, Reaper's touch. As far as I know it's a Shadar-Kai only feat.

    @atlastrembles
    Fourthorn Flameshield's sheet seems a bit messed up. His health seems low for a starting character.

    Also I gave out a slightly increased point buy budget (should be 25pts) both Fourthorn's and Overyx's sheet currently have 22pts worth.
    Last edited by Ghost49X; 2019-07-29 at 02:19 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost49X View Post
    Ok, as long as you know that a lot of the buffs for magic missile don't work with the HoFL version as most require a "hit" to take effect.
    While looking at his sheet, it was noticed that he took a Shadar-Kai racial feat, Reaper's touch. As far as I know it's a Shadar-Kai only feat.
    Yeah, Iím okay with the lack of a hit factor.
    I still donít have access to the compendium, but even though it appeared in a section about Shadar-Kai in Dragon Magazine, it has no racial prerequisite listed. All it requires is one of the listed classes and its relevant power. But, if this is specified to be a Shadar-Kai only feat in an errata, Iíll probably have to ditch that character completely and go with the swordmage.
    I just thought it was under the Shadar-Kai section because most people that take the feat are Shadar-Kai in lore. Much like a couple other rare feats starring the fey races like Elves and Gnomes.
    Last edited by MinotaurWarblad; 2019-07-29 at 05:41 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Personally, I think the Expertise feats should be given for free. I'll rather not have them tied to items that can be lost or stolen, and as was previously stated, the accuracy bonus is pretty much essential for any and all characters. So, having one for free in order to free up more build and class-specific feats make a significant amount of sense.

    Anyway, let's see...

    Defenders:
    Warden

    Strikers:
    Avenger
    Barbarian

    Controllers:
    Wizard? (Seems likely to be a Striker as well if they're a Pyromancer)

    Leaders:
    Runepriest
    Artificer

    Definitely taking my Fighter then in order to fill in the Defenders, afterwards... well, Runepriest and Artificer tend to give out pretty solid buffs, (even if a Crossbow Artificer is going to struggle to use Magic Weapon when there doesn't seem to be any ranged DPS guys here). So taking a Warlord in order to actually make use of those buffs for extra actions, alongside the Barbain's massive hits seems like the smart choice to me.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost49X View Post
    Mechanically the crossbow stuff is fine, thought I'd like to hear how you rationalize using your powers from your Crossbow. Especially ones that focus on supporting your allies.

    The Gladiator on the otherhand I have small issues with some of it's powers (nothing you can start with).

    The first of which is Infuriating Challenge.
    A Reliable power with an effect that lasts until the end of the encounter with no way to shake it seems a bit much. Maybe you lose the effect if you get knocked unconscious? Still going to last the encounter most times while giving the monsters some hope to escape it. Especially since it's something you can spam until you hit.

    The second of which is Bloody Blades, of which is more a wording issue.
    "Effect: You can assume the stance of the bloody blades. Until the stance ends, as a free action you can deal damage equal to your primary ability modifier to any enemy that starts its turn adjacent to you. Any enemy you deal damage to cannot shift until the end of your next turn."
    I'd read that as dealing damage through this power prevents the enemies from shifting.

    Your thoughts on the above?
    The crossbow I always imagined to be a rune inscribed weapon. It helps that thus far all the powers I selected so far are ones that enhance weapons or armor. I did not select Punishing Eye as my daily power even though it's absolutely nuts on the assumption that it would be nixed. The crossbow becomes just a focus for magical power, maybe even acting as a spellbook with each rune representing a spell.

    The gladiator powers seem reasonable though I wouldn't worry as I will be selecting rages for my dailies most likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Storyteller_Arc View Post
    Definitely taking my Fighter then in order to fill in the Defenders, afterwards... well, Runepriest and Artificer tend to give out pretty solid buffs, (even if a Crossbow Artificer is going to struggle to use Magic Weapon when there doesn't seem to be any ranged DPS guys here). So taking a Warlord in order to actually make use of those buffs for extra actions, alongside the Barbain's massive hits seems like the smart choice to me.
    I did select barbarian for potential Warlord characters! I know there are good chances for a big melee basic attack. I'll probably carry a dagger as backup on my Artificer, though its does look like melee is crowded. I'm okay with shooting past people or provoking the odd attack or spending actions to swap to melee when needed.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost49X View Post

    @atlastrembles
    Fourthorn Flameshield's sheet seems a bit messed up. His health seems low for a starting character.

    Also I gave out a slightly increased point buy budget (should be 25pts) both Fourthorn's and Overyx's sheet currently have 22pts worth.
    Noted! I'll take another run at the numbers and re-post. I think I'm missing a Theme for Fourthorn, too..

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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Quote Originally Posted by CateranEnforcer View Post
    The crossbow I always imagined to be a rune inscribed weapon. It helps that thus far all the powers I selected so far are ones that enhance weapons or armor. I did not select Punishing Eye as my daily power even though it's absolutely nuts on the assumption that it would be nixed. The crossbow becomes just a focus for magical power, maybe even acting as a spellbook with each rune representing a spell.
    So for powers that would be targeting an ally as the primary target do you intend to shoot them with rune inscribed bolts? Talk about painful medicine.

    The gladiator powers seem reasonable though I wouldn't worry as I will be selecting rages for my dailies most likely.
    That's cool, we can revisit the issue should you want to take those powers and safely ignore it until then.

    I did select barbarian for potential Warlord characters! I know there are good chances for a big melee basic attack. I'll probably carry a dagger as backup on my Artificer, though its does look like melee is crowded. I'm okay with shooting past people or provoking the odd attack or spending actions to swap to melee when needed.
    Yeah I'm was kinda surprised at the ratio of melee focused characters. I was thinking some of you had a plan. It goes to say that with a larger group, the maps will be a bit larger to accommodate. (no fighting in cramped cellars for example) Though player choices may impact on that, for example if you guys choose to draw the enemies into a hallway or something I'm not going to "force" you to fight in open areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Storyteller_Arc View Post
    Personally, I think the Expertise feats should be given for free. I'll rather not have them tied to items that can be lost or stolen, and as was previously stated, the accuracy bonus is pretty much essential for any and all characters. So, having one for free in order to free up more build and class-specific feats make a significant amount of sense.
    While they can be lost or stolen, they can also be replaced and upgraded. From the discussions that I've been holding on the subject, the feats seem to only become essential at higher tiers as the character/monster stat divide gets larger. I can appreciate going for accuracy early on in a character build, but it's hardly essential. On another note, back when I first started there were accuracy buffing powers, Warlords having a few, but the ones I remember seemed to have been nerfed since then. I don't know if that was due to reworking the math in MM3 or making those feats even more essential or some other more obscure reason.

    Definitely taking my Fighter then in order to fill in the Defenders, afterwards... well, Runepriest and Artificer tend to give out pretty solid buffs, (even if a Crossbow Artificer is going to struggle to use Magic Weapon when there doesn't seem to be any ranged DPS guys here). So taking a Warlord in order to actually make use of those buffs for extra actions, alongside the Barbain's massive hits seems like the smart choice to me.
    ColdSteel also mentioned wanting a fighter and wizard amongst his choices. I haven't seen him post in a couple days so I PMed him.
    Looking at the Pyromancer's build he didn't really seem to specialize in fire powers so I don't know how much his choice in apprenticeship is telling about the character. He seems to be going for an Elemental Empowerment build though.
    Last edited by Ghost49X; 2019-07-29 at 12:03 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    What 2 should I pick from the Fighter, Wizard, and Warlord? Iím ok with any 2 characters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColdSteel View Post
    What 2 should I pick from the Fighter, Wizard, and Warlord? Iím ok with any 2 characters.
    There's only 1 controller so far and very few ranged characters. So your Wizard might have less trouble getting a spot in the melee to attack.
    Depending on how you want to play your fighter and warlord either would be good.

    Storyteller_Arc picked both a Warlord and a Fighter, though if you pick one or the other he might change his mind.
    Due to there being other Defenders and Leaders you could allow yourself to be a bit more striker-like with either.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Due to the number of monsters that will need to be fielded against our larger party, AoE attacks will be invaluable. Most controllers come highly recommended, as do monks and storm/cosmic sorcerers.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Yeah, if the Fighter or Warlord is picked, I'll drop mine in order to replace them with the Rogue. No issues there.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by atlastrembles View Post
    Noted! I'll take another run at the numbers and re-post. I think I'm missing a Theme for Fourthorn, too..
    Alright, I couldn't find a reliable 4E stat calculator, but I think I've adjusted the scores to be close enough. Fourthorn's HP's been fixed, too.

    If there are players who want to play a melee character, I will happily adapt one of my PCs to be a ranged/controller for party balance.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    I was going over themes in the compendium and I came across Order Adept, which I think I want to swap to over noble. I didn't really like it from the start, just the entry power was kinda neat an leadery, but the rest of it really didn't sit well with me. Bonuses to social skills she's not good at anyways. Order Adept looks far more interesting representing like a mages guild type of thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MinotaurWarblad View Post
    Yeah, Iím okay with the lack of a hit factor.
    I still donít have access to the compendium, but even though it appeared in a section about Shadar-Kai in Dragon Magazine, it has no racial prerequisite listed. All it requires is one of the listed classes and its relevant power. But, if this is specified to be a Shadar-Kai only feat in an errata, Iíll probably have to ditch that character completely and go with the swordmage.
    I just thought it was under the Shadar-Kai section because most people that take the feat are Shadar-Kai in lore. Much like a couple other rare feats starring the fey races like Elves and Gnomes.
    I've looked up the feat both in Dragon #372 and Dragon Annual where it is both published. In Dragon #372 on p.8, as a preface to the racial feats it says:

    In Dragon #372 on p.8, as a preface to the racial feats it says: Where as Dragon Annual has the following as a preface:
    RACIAL FEATS
    Shadar-kai have a number of feats all their own, as
    well as access to those tied to their Shadowfell origin.
    Heroic Tier Feats
    These feats are available to any shadar-kai character
    who meets the prerequisites."
    RACIAL FEATS
    Shadar-kai have a number of feats all their own, as
    well as access to those tied to their Shadowfell origin.

    Now if you wanted to try the same build with a Shadar-kai things could work out but you would lose access to Genasi racial feats and features in turn.
    If you want to take the Swordmage that alright too.

    Quote Originally Posted by atlastrembles View Post
    Alright, I couldn't find a reliable 4E stat calculator, but I think I've adjusted the scores to be close enough. Fourthorn's HP's been fixed, too.
    As for a 4E stat calculator, you can use Asmor's just don't take into account the "Using too many build points" warning it gives and make sure the total comes out to 25 (it's going to say 25/22)

    Quote Originally Posted by CateranEnforcer View Post
    I was going over themes in the compendium and I came across Order Adept, which I think I want to swap to over noble. I didn't really like it from the start, just the entry power was kinda neat an leadery, but the rest of it really didn't sit well with me. Bonuses to social skills she's not good at anyways. Order Adept looks far more interesting representing like a mages guild type of thing.
    Alright for Order Adept.

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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Alrighty, Iíll build the swordmage instead.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    Iíll pick Clod the Human Fighter and Maledroth the Tiefling Wizard

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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    So by my count that gives us the following:

    Defenders
    Fighter
    Fighter
    Warden
    Swordmage

    Strikers
    Avenger
    Barbarian

    Leaders
    Runepriest
    Artificer
    Warlord

    Controller
    Wizard

    I think that leaves us fine on leaders and controllers, though we look a little light on strikers. Regardless, I think we'll do fine just getting the full list for reference. Do we want to try and get any fluff ironed out before we start? How we know each other, what our goals are, etc?

    Edit: Looks like the the two defenders posted are two handing which works fine for us! I've seen push Dragonborn fighters do good damage and I've played a two handed warden and done good stuff with that too.
    Last edited by CateranEnforcer; 2019-07-30 at 05:12 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Iím gonna change my swordmage to a manticore ranger.
    Last edited by MinotaurWarblad; 2019-07-30 at 05:10 PM.

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    Default Re: 4e D&D, with or without templates

    I had already stated that whatever ColdSteel decided to play alongside with their Wizard, would be swapped out on my part with my Rogue. They decided to go with their Fighter, so my Fighter has been swapped out with my Rogue.

    Therefore, the table is actually like this:

    Defenders
    Fighter
    Warden
    Swordmage

    Strikers
    Avenger
    Barbarian
    Rogue

    Leaders
    Runepriest
    Artificer
    Warlord

    Controller
    Wizard
    Last edited by Storyteller_Arc; 2019-07-30 at 05:16 PM.

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