The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #961
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    int 5 is not stretching it: at int 3 you already know how to read and write by default. Also assuming that human int is spread under the form of 3D6 then 3 int means you are among the 1/216th of the population that is the least smart so unless you say that a quite huge chunk of the population is very unplayable then int 5 should be playable.
    Universal literacy is another game abstraction and if in-game Int works anything like IQ scores, the overwhelming majority are clustered around 9-12, with the extreme outliers (the 1/216 crowd and beyond) <7 and 14+.

    Either way, if we are seriously rating it on "no hands, no speech, no brains," as someone put it above, that's almost literally unplayable (LA -), not LA -0, and if we are indeed supposedly rating it on actually being playable, it categorically can't have "no brains".

  2. - Top - End - #962
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I'd be willing to play a blood hawk in a low-level party. But I can't give it better than LA -0. A barbarian or rogue or scout of a PHB race will be notably more effective overall; the blood hawk is only going to compare well against Tier 5. Heck, I'd give the advantage to a human fighter for most purposes. Bit of a shame ... that flight speed is tasty.
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  3. - Top - End - #963
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I would vote for +0, and assume that the playgroup will be somewhat accommodating in terms of letting them function as a PC. It makes me think of Tobias from Animorphs.

  4. - Top - End - #964
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    Universal literacy is another game abstraction and if in-game Int works anything like IQ scores, the overwhelming majority are clustered around 9-12, with the extreme outliers (the 1/216 crowd and beyond) <7 and 14+.

    Either way, if we are seriously rating it on "no hands, no speech, no brains," as someone put it above, that's almost literally unplayable (LA -), not LA -0, and if we are indeed supposedly rating it on actually being playable, it categorically can't have "no brains".
    You can not multiply int by 10 and get an iq score: it is not how it works nor how the game attributes int scores to creatures.
    I think that assuming intellect in a simulated real life human population as being obtained by rolling 3d6 is more coherent with the monsters in the game and also makes the whole "everybody with 3 int or more can read" coherent.
    Unless you want to tell me that orcs that have a full -4 int penalty therefore should have never succeeded to make civilisations as complex as the one in dnd because having 40 less iq on average would have prevented them from creating such a thing.
    so I can say the relation between IQ and int if there is one is not close to being linear as you seem to assume(or you should search through all the monster manuals and for each monster supposed to be able to create civilisations that have a consequent int penalty remove it and seek other similar inconsistencies with your own vision of int that directly oppose the entire game).
    Last edited by noob; Yesterday at 11:02 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #965
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Everyone being able to read is a game abstraction for ease of play, not at all related to cognitive function. In a largely agrarian world, with no universal education, there is literally no excuse to have everyone be literate other than it being just a game and one really shouldn't try to justify that.

  6. - Top - End - #966
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I'm voting LA +0 for the blood hawk. I honestly don't put a lot of credence in the lack of hands and speech as serious impediments. A Fly speed, three natural attacks with a minor rider effect, and a Str bonus are all pretty good for a melee character early on, especially if it doesn't cost you any class levels.

    At higher levels, your lack of racial HD means your maneuver progression can keep pace with the other tier-3's, and Flyby Attack is pretty easy to get and works well with most maneuvers. Your base damage is low, but you do get a bit of a Str bonus, and your claws can do double damage on a dive attack. I think a fair number of builds might be able to keep up with average parties at this tier. If the comparison is tier 4, then I think blood hawks will likely come out fairly even in the long run.
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  7. - Top - End - #967
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Hmm. I feel like it’s easier to justify no hands and INT -8 if you’re not paying an HD tax on top of it, and it doesn’t actually say it can’t talk. (Presumably you’ll buy at least 11 INT to keep on the clear side of the “no PCs with under 3 INT” rule.)

    You’ll have to play smart to prevent the lack of hands from being a hindrance in the late game, but you’d be pretty functional early on. Decent combat (not skill) rogue, for instance, or another martial-style class. Or a WIS caster, because why not. Psywar would actually be pretty badass.

    I’m okay with +0 under the assumption that anyone using our system will have enough basic savvy to not box themselves into an unworkable corner.
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  8. - Top - End - #968
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I believe that a lack of hands can be incredibly crippling at higher levels and that having a -8 intelligence penalty can be very difficult to role play. That being said, I think a blood hawk would make a very cool and effective cohort, and I thus vote for LA +0.

    It would be much more enjoyable to play the master of an intelligence 3 creature than it would to play the creature itself. Also, in this situation, the humanoid player could likely use his hands and share of the treasure to benefit the blood hawk, thereby somewhat diminishing its inherent limitations.

    All this being said, I don't know if LA reassignment accounts for cohorts gained through the leadership feat. If not, I'm voting for -0.

  9. - Top - End - #969
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I don't imagine that anyone will play a creature with bestial intelligence and if we're going to handwave that for animals, I don't see why magical beasts wouldn't qualify either. With that aside, the dubious manipulators and lack of obvious speech certainly detract from the otherwise reasonable abilities, but they're not a total loss. I'd given them a weak LA +0.

  10. - Top - End - #970
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Flight and great non-int stats, I'll take a strong +0 for 500 gold, Alex. If it were this or one of the crappier humanoids, I'd take this every single time.

  11. - Top - End - #971
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I don't imagine that anyone will play a creature with bestial intelligence and if we're going to handwave that for animals, I don't see why magical beasts wouldn't qualify either.
    I think that the awaken spell motivates the hand-waving of low intelligence for animals, but I could be wrong. Unfortunately, I'm aware of no spell to permanently increase the intelligence of magical beasts besides wish.

  12. - Top - End - #972
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Definite -0 from me. Too many drawbacks.
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  13. - Top - End - #973
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Three natural weapons, flight, 0HD... yeah I can definitely see myself playing this. +0. Not for most character concepts, obviously, but for enough I think it's viable.
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  14. - Top - End - #974
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    1 what lack of speech?
    Usually if a creature can speak, it notes what languages it can speak in the description. It could be argued they have the capacity for speech, I guess. If you can speak, you're probably going to have to spend some (cross class) ranks in speak language: and of course with -8 Int, skill points are already in short supply.

    I suppose you could say they understand (but not speak) at least one language if their starting Int is 3 or higher:
    Quote Originally Posted by MM p.7
    Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    2 It has a beak and a strength boost so it should be more able to manipulate things than crows and other birds so I don't think that would be too bad other than not being able to wield weapons effectively
    Well yes, its better off than, say, a snake, but as you say, weapons (other than Mouthpick) are unlikely. You're going to need a significant investment in magic items and/or other resources to function close to your average humanoid in terms of interactivity with the game world.

    I stand by -0: you're a glorified eagle with a minor special attack and the Intelligence modifier of a donkey. I mean, it's not a horrible -0 like a 32HD construct, but I don't think it quite makes +0 IMHO.

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