The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[Inevitability]

And the threads keep coming and they don't stop coming...

By now, the purpose of the threads should be clear: assign the many 3.5 monsters a balanced LA, or fix those suggested by WotC.

More information can be found in the archive.

[Inevitability]

Also, I am keeping voting for the intellect devourer open for a bit, because I felt like there was some confusion surrounding a potential asterisk. I should have considered this more when making my initial post.

To clarify: including an asterisk would mean completely removing the problematic ability (Body Thief), and then rating the monster as if it didn't have the offending ability. Advocating for a high LA and an asterisk will, at least in this specific case, almost always be inconsistent.


For the purpose of making it a bit easier to count the votes, please re-post them here.

[danielxcutter]

So... vote based on Intellect Devourers without the Body Theft ability, then slap a ginormous asterisk on it?

[MisterKaws]

So... vote based on Intellect Devourers without the Body Theft ability, then slap a ginormous asterisk on it?

Either slap a ginormous LA for the problematic ability or a ginormous asterisk, but in the Intellect Devourer's case it needs to be the asterisk, since a ginormous LA would make it a one-trick-chickenbrainpony.

By the way, I was sure the most voted title was the other...

At least use it on the VIII thread then.

[Blue Jay]

I still think Body Thief needs to be included in the LA, even if we want to assign it an asterisk (which we should). It's just not meaningful to rate a monster without the one ability that defines it. The phasm got an LA that included its unrestricted Alternate Form, so there's no reason why the intellect devourer can't also have an LA that includes Body Thief.

My vote remains at LA +1*.

Incidentally, I also advocate adding an asterisk to the phasm.

[Celestia]

For the purpose of making it a bit easier to count the votes, please re-post them here.

-0* Don't read this part.

[MisterKaws]

For the purpose of making it a bit easier to count the votes, please re-post them here.

Sorry, didn't see it. LA: -0*

I still think Body Thief needs to be included in the LA, even if we want to assign it an asterisk (which we should). It's just not meaningful to rate a monster without the one ability that defines it. The phasm got an LA that included its unrestricted Alternate Form, so there's no reason why the intellect devourer can't also have an LA that includes Body Thief.

My vote remains at LA +1*.

But that's how the other half-thousand monsters up to now were rated.

Incidentally, I also advocate adding an asterisk to the phasm.

At that high of a level, there's already Master Transmogrifist which does basically the same, so there's no need for an asterisk.

And the monster was already rated years ago, so no changing it now.

[Celestia]

I still think Body Thief needs to be included in the LA, even if we want to assign it an asterisk (which we should). It's just not meaningful to rate a monster without the one ability that defines it. The phasm got an LA that included its unrestricted Alternate Form, so there's no reason why the intellect devourer can't also have an LA that includes Body Thief.

My vote remains at LA +1*.

Incidentally, I also advocate adding an asterisk to the phasm.

"This is how the rating system works in this thread."

"Nah, I'm just going to ignore that."

Brilliant. sarcasticclap.png

[Zancloufer]

If we keep the body theft power LA+1 as it only works on small+ dying creatures. Also you don't gain any of their Su abilities or mental scores, or BaB, saves, skills, feats or anything related to it's HD count.

You could argue also you can't steal any creature with more HD than you but even then you only have one body you can choose at a time and it only lasts one week max.


Can someone show a solid PRACTICAL example as in how Body theft might be actually broken?

[Zaq]

Changing my vote to +1, no asterisk.

[MisterKaws]

If we keep the body theft power LA+1 as it only works on small+ dying creatures. Also you don't gain any of their Su abilities or mental scores, or BaB, saves, skills, feats or anything related to it's HD count.

You could argue also you can't steal any creature with more HD than you but even then you only have one body you can choose at a time and it only lasts one week max.


Can someone show a solid PRACTICAL example as in how Body theft might be actually broken?

Here's my post on the last thread explaining how it is absolutely broken:

I got home, so I can bicker argue about how broken Body Thief is.

I'll divide the wording a bit, so we can better understand it:

As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the devourer can merge its form with that of a helpless or dead creature of Small size or larger. The devourer cannot merge its body with that of a creature immune to extra damage from critical hits.

That should mean it can merge with any helpless creature that is not immune to critical hits, yes? Good, let's go on:

When an intellect devourer completes its merging, it psionically consumes the brain of the victim (which kills it if it is not already dead). The devourer can exit the body at any time as a standard action, bursting the victim’s skull and resuming its normal form.

It kills the victim. No questions asked. I'll come back to this later. Continuing:

After consuming its victim’s brain, an intellect devourer can instead choose to animate the body for up to seven days as if it were the victim’s original brain. The devourer retains its hit points, saving throws, and mental ability scores, as well as its psi-like abilities. It assumes the physical qualities and ability scores of the victim, as if it had used polymorph to assume the victim’s form. As long as the intellect devourer occupies the body, it knows the languages spoken by the victim and very basic information about the victim’s identity and personality, but none of the victim’s specific memories or knowledge.

Now, here's the point. It doesn't mention it actually using Polymorph. It just says it assumes whatever physical abilities a Polymorph into said form would give. What does this mean? It means that whatever your party can kill, you can turn into for seven days.


And that's kind of a problem. Do you know why? Let me give you an example: Stormwrack page 142: Huge Monstrous Crab. It's a CR7 monster, meaning it's a monster you'll meet at CR7 in any common seaside adventure. We all know that crabs in D&D are categorically broken for their CR, and the only thing stopping players from abusing them themselves is their high HD. Well, body thiefs only cares that you beat it before. This means you get a seven-day period of being That Crab.

Barely any ECL 7 martial player can compete with That Crab on any aspects, and you can get to become it as long as your party can kill it once for you.

Oh, and remember when I said I'd come back to the second paragraph? Here's the thing: you can kill the goddamn Tarasque. As long as you can get a couple Allips(Dip Rogue 1 and grab UMD x9) to hit him a couple times(the Tarrasque still has a 50% chance of hitting them due to DR/Epic, so you need a couple of them), then he'll fall unconscious, and then you just use Body Thief. On the freaking Tarrasque. And that's a single level dip!

The ability needs a house-ruled limit to HD/level or just a rewrite.

[Efrate]

I will chime in at +1* again. If it has the ability the minimum should be level 7. If it does not and you still want to play one With it's defenses and all around solid stats I still think it's an ok +1. Non humanoid has issues maybe but I think it pulls it's weight at comparable ecl.

[ViperMagnum357]

Keeping my vote for the Intellect Devourer at LA +1, no asterisk. As I elucidated in the prior thread, I think the fairly narrow bounds of the ability allow it to be rated adequately. The DM will need to be a little careful about enormous melee bruisers with powerful (Ex) attacks and impressive natural attack routines; but eventually that becomes a concern anyway with Necromancy, Enchantment, Binding/Ally and diplomacy, so any DM should be able to adjust without serious issue. LA +1 keeps it par for full casters with polymorph, who do not need a steady supply of fresh corpses and have a whole repertoire of spells to supplement that one good trick.

Also not a fan of the thread title, the pun does not work.

[Zancloufer]

Alright, looking at a 6 HD Intellect Devourer possessing the 7 CR Giant monstrous crab vs boring 7 HD human Barbarian 32 PB with 17/14/16/10/10/7 stat line.

Barbarian: 7d12+21 HP (~69 avg) before gear/rage. 19 str and +7 BaB with a boring +2 Great Sword and no feats/rage has +14 to hit and deals 2d6+8 damage. Also have 8/6/2 saves before magic items and 17 AC with no magic items and some simple medium armour. Also +12 to grapple.

Intellect Devourer has 6d8+12 HP (38 avg). 25 str and +4 BaB and huge size means +9 to hit for 2d6+7 damage. Saves of 4/7/6 assuming you don't dump or bump Wisdom and AC 22 before magic items. +17 grapple is a bit dangerous though.

Overall, before feats/magic items (which would IMHO favour the Barbarian slightly) the Intellect Devourer has better AC/grapple but much worse AC and normal attacks. Not exactly overpowered. You can pretty much sub in as a beat-stick but you trade noticeable raw power for flexibility. Assuming you can get a solid source of usable bodies.

[MisterKaws]

Alright, looking at a 6 HD Intellect Devourer possessing the 7 CR Giant monstrous crab vs boring 7 HD human Barbarian 32 PB with 17/14/16/10/10/7 stat line.

Barbarian: 7d12+21 HP (~69 avg) before gear/rage. 19 str and +7 BaB with a boring +2 Great Sword and no feats/rage has +14 to hit and deals 2d6+8 damage. Also have 8/6/2 saves before magic items and 17 AC with no magic items and some simple medium armour. Also +12 to grapple.

Intellect Devourer has 6d8+12 HP (38 avg). 25 str and +4 BaB and huge size means +9 to hit for 2d6+7 damage. Saves of 4/7/6 assuming you don't dump or bump Wisdom and AC 22 before magic items. +17 grapple is a bit dangerous though.

Overall, before feats/magic items (which would IMHO favour the Barbarian slightly) the Intellect Devourer has better AC/grapple but much worse AC and normal attacks. Not exactly overpowered. You can pretty much sub in as a beat-stick but you trade noticeable raw power for flexibility. Assuming you can get a solid source of usable bodies.

You forgot the 4d6 constrict. And that's just one monster.

The inherent problem here is that it forbids DMs from using high HD bruisers, which are the most common type of foe. Since it is an effect similar to Polymorph, it can also pick Assume Supernatural Ability, and then it starts getting bad.

[Mike Miller]

I vote +1 for the intellect devourer. I understand the arguments for the asterisk, but I really don't think it is even close to the trouble of other monsters we've rated with an asterisk.

[Prime32]

One of the odder parts of Body Thief is that there doesn't seem to be a limit on how long the target's been dead, which could throw off DM plans involving graveyards. It does mean you could get around some of the limitations by carrying around a portable hole filled with dogs.

And for RAW silliness, it's possible to use spark of life to make an undead creature that's vulnerable to critical hits, but doesn't die when its brain is eaten.

[Thurbane]

[MrSandman]

Hi, this is my first time posting here, but I've been following these threads for a while and am a big fan of them. I'm also a big fan of this issue's name. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to vote, but here are my thoughts.

I've been reading the discussion and I'm not convinced about the asterisk. Honestly, the Body Thief thing seems more trouble than its worth. Unless you're devoting a big part of the campaign to body hunting, you shouldn't be able to find and use many crazy forms (and even then, they don't seem that out of the line anyway.) Regarding Assume Supernatural Ability, well, that's a problem of the feat, not of this monster.

So I would give this creature a LA +1

[Caelestion]

Body Thief will be used as much as the ID can get away with, but it is at least under the GM's control as to what appears. It's a problematic ability, but it's still worth at least LA +1.

[Falontani]

LA: +1 extra words for consumption

[Remuko]

Body Thief earns them one hell of a DM caution marker. And the 7 day time limit hurts because you constantly need too find new bodies, and once you leave a body, you can't use it again.

Also, since they have the Evil subtype, their actual alignment doesn't matter for their vulnerability to Protection From Evil.


Leaving out Body Thief ... I have to call them -0!
Sure, they have nifty stats and some nice qualities ... but they are massively dependent on body stealing to contribute, and have way too many RHD to go caster/manifester.

I agree with this.

-0

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm still thinking +0 for the intellect devourer.

[Dimers]

Keeping my vote for the Intellect Devourer at LA +1, no asterisk. As I elucidated in the prior thread, I think the fairly narrow bounds of the ability allow it to be rated adequately.

Ditto on both the LA +1 (no asterisk) and the reasoning.

[remetagross]

Reposting my previous judging: LA +1, no asterisk.

[lord_khaine]

Alright, looking at a 6 HD Intellect Devourer possessing the 7 CR Giant monstrous crab vs boring 7 HD human Barbarian 32 PB with 17/14/16/10/10/7 stat line.

Barbarian: 7d12+21 HP (~69 avg) before gear/rage. 19 str and +7 BaB with a boring +2 Great Sword and no feats/rage has +14 to hit and deals 2d6+8 damage. Also have 8/6/2 saves before magic items and 17 AC with no magic items and some simple medium armour. Also +12 to grapple.

Intellect Devourer has 6d8+12 HP (38 avg). 25 str and +4 BaB and huge size means +9 to hit for 2d6+7 damage. Saves of 4/7/6 assuming you don't dump or bump Wisdom and AC 22 before magic items. +17 grapple is a bit dangerous though.

Overall, before feats/magic items (which would IMHO favour the Barbarian slightly) the Intellect Devourer has better AC/grapple but much worse AC and normal attacks. Not exactly overpowered. You can pretty much sub in as a beat-stick but you trade noticeable raw power for flexibility. Assuming you can get a solid source of usable bodies.

The ID should have 6d8+30 HP, since it has a racial Con bonus.
And this comparison also neglegt that it has Blindsight, DR 10/adamantine, Power resistance, as well as a few useful psy-like abilities.
As well as that its a better target for mage armor.

[MesiDoomstalker]

+0* Its alright without literal body stealing

[OgresAreCute]

After revving up my brain and thinking about it a bit, I'll spring for +1.
Polymorph is strong, and so is Body Thief, but if you allow polymorph or similar effects this will probably be balanced with those. Also unlike polymorph, the DM can actually control what bodies you have access to and so can prevent some of the worst abuse. You also have some decent stat boosts and you automatically qualify for Metamorphic Transfer, and so I think this would be a fun and thematic shapeshifter to play. It wouldn't be any more disruptive than any other shapeshifting class or character (in fact, probably less).

[javcs]

The Intellect Devourer is a solid -0*.

It is massively dependent upon Body Thief to have a chance of regularly contributing, far less taking an regular and active role as a character.
Without Body Thief it could maybe slide as a minion (ie, Improved Familiar-esque), where the ability to communicate rests with the main character, not the minion.'


And Body Thief is a massive DM caution. Plus it's a pain in the ass as a player - you can only use each body once, and only for a maximum of 7 days. This isn't the kind of logistical issue that can be handwaved away (ie, a lot of DMs won't bother to track individual mundane arrows (or other low-value mundane consumables), but you can be sure as that the DM is going to keep a close eye on your body supply ... and the trail of corpses.

[Grey Guard]

Not a popular vote, but I'm going with +0. After being in two games where a player was a Psion, and another where he was an Ardent, both characters focused around Metamorphosis abuse, I just don't see bodysnatching as being that bad.