The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[MisterKaws]

Not a popular vote, but I'm going with +0. After being in two games where a player was a Psion, and another where he was an Ardent, both characters focused around Metamorphosis abuse, I just don't see bodysnatching as being that bad.

With a +0 you're giving them the same ability a level earlier, though, and with potentially stronger uses because of the lack of a limit.

[Lans]

I'm going with +0, it should be fine in the role of a rogue, with massive boost to its survivability with the body possesion on top of it.

[Grey Guard]

With a +0 you're giving them the same ability a level earlier, though, and with potentially stronger uses because of the lack of a limit.

While that may be true, you're paying for that with a bunch of Aberration HD, and you don't have a bunch of awesome powers to fall back on as well. The Ardent was terrifying because he could turn into whatever his Knowledge checks let him, as well as having full manifesting as back-up.

Simply stealing what I, as the DM, have all the power to control what he has access to doesn't sound too bad in the slightest, especially when that's the character's main schtick. Will that discourage me from using high HD beaters? Maybe, but I'm rating this assuming the DM knows what he's doing, and will prepare accordingly.

[lord_khaine]

Anyway, to repeat my vote is for +1 LA
I dont think less can do it. And thats still giving the gm a bit of additional work.

[MisterKaws]

While that may be true, you're paying for that with a bunch of Aberration HD, and you don't have a bunch of awesome powers to fall back on as well. The Ardent was terrifying because he could turn into whatever his Knowledge checks let him, as well as having full manifesting as back-up.

Simply stealing what I, as the DM, have all the power to control what he has access to doesn't sound too bad in the slightest, especially when that's the character's main schtick. Will that discourage me from using high HD beaters? Maybe, but I'm rating this assuming the DM knows what he's doing, and will prepare accordingly.

Still, that means it would warrant DM caution, doesn't it?

[Grey Guard]

Still, that means it would warrant DM caution, doesn't it?

About as much as someone playing a Wizard, Sorcerer, or Psion does, I would think.

[Caelestion]

Not a popular vote, but I'm going with +0. After being in two games where a player was a Psion, and another where he was an Ardent, both characters focused around Metamorphosis abuse, I just don't see bodysnatching as being that bad.

So, because you've played with a Tier 1 character built to abuse metamorphosis, you think everyone with polymorphing abilities should do it?

[Grey Guard]

So, because you've played with a Tier 1 character built to abuse metamorphosis, you think everyone with polymorphing abilities should do it?

I'm not saying everyone should do it at all. I'm saying that given the caveats that the body theft ability has, it's different, but has some more manageable limitations. Besides, what would you define as "abuse" Metamorphosis? Because in my case, it was to simply use the power. Later on they took the feats that let them get abilities from a few forms (like Pyrohydra's Breath Weapon and War Troll's Dazing Blow ). Which is also available to the IE if they take those.

The IE doesn't have the same issue. They can do the same things, sure, but not if I, as a DM, never include a War Troll, for example, as an encounter. Or ever make them part of the world in general. Sure, it can take over the Tarrasque right out of the gate, but I have to provide the Tarrasque. And if I have a party that's beating the Tarrasque at that low of a level, I'm either overwhelmed as a DM by crazy powerful player characters, or the they're so powerful that the IE's powers are probably aligned with the rest of team, if maybe lacking a bit, anyway.

I just don't see why I'm penalizing the IE when the spellcasters can do the same thing- and arguably better, and still have other abilities as well.

I'm not saying you guys are incorrect in your own evaluations. 3.5 has shown me that some groups have wildly different ideas of what's powerful. It's why we have all different ideas on an LA and we vote, after all.

[MisterKaws]

I'm not saying everyone should do it at all. I'm saying that given the caveats that the body theft ability has, it's different, but has some more manageable limitations. Besides, what would you define as "abuse" Metamorphosis? Because in my case, it was to simply use the power. Later on they took the feats that let them get abilities from a few forms (like Pyrohydra's Breath Weapon and War Troll's Dazing Blow ). Which is also available to the IE if they take those.

The IE doesn't have the same issue. They can do the same things, sure, but not if I, as a DM, never include a War Troll, for example, as an encounter. Or ever make them part of the world in general. Sure, it can take over the Tarrasque right out of the gate, but I have to provide the Tarrasque. And if I have a party that's beating the Tarrasque at that low of a level, I'm either overwhelmed as a DM by crazy powerful player characters, or the they're so powerful that the IE's powers are probably aligned with the rest of team, if maybe lacking a bit, anyway.

I just don't see why I'm penalizing the IE when the spellcasters can do the same thing- and arguably better, and still have other abilities as well.

I'm not saying you guys are incorrect in your own evaluations. 3.5 has shown me that some groups have wildly different ideas of what's powerful. It's why we have all different ideas on an LA and we vote, after all.

Still, they can do the same thing an entire level early, and they can do it endlessly as long as you provide corpses. Vancian casters barely get to do it more than twice at level 7, though Psions do get to do it 7-8 times if they do nothing but spam Metamorphosis. Even so, you're going to have a problem on par with having a middle-grader on your table playing a CE Necromancer. For one, both would go around killing anyone they could get away with murdering, and keeping creepy corpse collections.

The ability just sounds like it needs a DM warning before being allowed.

[liquidformat]

So I am a bit confused how we are getting past the RHD restriction of Polymorph based on the text since it no where talks about hd which typically means there is no specific to trump general.
The text saying "It assumes the physical qualities and ability scores of the victim, as if it had used polymorph to assume the victim’s form." seems to cause issues with an uncapped hd limit as polymorph wouldn't allow you to take the form of a creature with more hd than you have...

Anyways I think +1 LA seems ok, the uncapped hd is balanced out by the fact that it is restricted to needing a corpse for the ability to function. Early on this is very DM dependent, for example if you are in an undead/caster/construct heavy campaign you are pretty SOL. Later on it becomes easier to use with planar binding and eventually gating but still is dependent on DM/ cooperating players. It also doesn't give unlimited polymorph it is in fact very limited polymorph based on what you can actually kill and what intact corpses you have on hand. So burning through multiple corpses each day becomes very risky as they are an important commodity for you to function as an ID.

I mean that, if you're comparing stat blocks to stat blocks and want to use a "properly" optimized human beatstick on the one end, you would need to build the monster side as a character as well. Point-buy ability scores, good feats, equipment, the whole shebang. A gray glutton built this way has as much resemblance to the one in the book as your barbarian chowder has to a straight barb20.
If you're just asserting "This monster's combat prowess is better/worse than an equivalent barbarian chowder's" without actually building both the monster and the chowder, then your arguments are all but worthless. With PC classes, features are more important than numbers...but a monster's features generally are their numbers, so you need to find the numbers before you judge them.

So I have been presenting builds with the assumption of 10s across the board, ignoring equipment (except pointing out missing slots), and feats (trying to point out important feats as they come up) since for the most part any feat/equipment one race can take another can too. What in your view is the benefit gained from using point buy rather than base 10, and fully fleshing out feats and equipment?

I am not seeing any particular advantage that is gained from going into this degree of detail.

Redo the non-bonus feats, then give three PC levels and compare a standard-race PC of that number of hit dice. Allow for the typical frontloaded features responsible for most PCs working, simple as that.

I am sorry but I am not seeing much of a difference between what you are asking for and what I had presented besides having 'default general' builds.

[MisterKaws]

So I am a bit confused how we are getting past the RHD restriction of Polymorph based on the text since it no where talks about hd which typically means there is no specific to trump general.
The text saying "It assumes the physical qualities and ability scores of the victim, as if it had used polymorph to assume the victim’s form." seems to cause issues with an uncapped hd limit as polymorph wouldn't allow you to take the form of a creature with more hd than you have...

Anyways I think +1 LA seems ok, the uncapped hd is balanced out by the fact that it is restricted to needing a corpse for the ability to function. Early on this is very DM dependent, for example if you are in an undead/caster/construct heavy campaign you are pretty SOL. Later on it becomes easier to use with planar binding and eventually gating but still is dependent on DM/ cooperating players. It also doesn't give unlimited polymorph it is in fact very limited polymorph based on what you can actually kill and what intact corpses you have on hand. So burning through multiple corpses each day becomes very risky as they are an important commodity for you to function as an ID.



So I have been presenting builds with the assumption of 10s across the board, ignoring equipment (except pointing out missing slots), and feats (trying to point out important feats as they come up) since for the most part any feat/equipment one race can take another can too. What in your view is the benefit gained from using point buy rather than base 10, and fully fleshing out feats and equipment?

I am not seeing any particular advantage that is gained from going into this degree of detail.



I am sorry but I am not seeing much of a difference between what you are asking for and what I had presented besides having 'default general' builds.

It says it grants the abilities "as Polymorph". Never does it says it has the same limitations as Polymorph. When that's the case, they bother to put "[...] this ability otherwise functions as Polymorph." in the end.

And yes, you need to build your example build with expected PC stuff: decent stat arrays(28-point should be good), WBL and feats, plus a few class levels into possibly synergistic classes, like Rogue for the Allip abuse into Tarrasque.

[liquidformat]

It says it grants the abilities "as Polymorph". Never does it says it has the same limitations as Polymorph. When that's the case, they bother to put "[...] this ability otherwise functions as Polymorph." in the end.

I have seen just as many people make the exact opposite argument with similarly worded abilities on GitP so this seems to be an area where RAW isn't specific. Most recently there was a long discussion about epic sense motives detect thoughts ability functioning against mind blank which has very similar wording.

Anyways I think the need for a corpse, the 1 week time frame, and the fact that you can't reuse corpses ends being enough of a balance to make this ability just fine with a +1 LA in actual game play. You are restricted to what is inside your game and how much your dm is allowing the party to abuse planar binding.

And yes, you need to build your example build with expected PC stuff: decent stat arrays(28-point should be good), WBL and feats, plus a few class levels into possibly synergistic classes, like Rogue for the Allip abuse into Tarrasque.

why do you need a point buy, WBL, and feats to compare two builds though? That is my question, what are we gaining from adding these things.

I would in fact say using point buy instead of straight 10s clouds the water because of the added variation it adds with adding IMO no value. using straight 10s allows you to see the differences in build choices such as race and classes. Similarly adding in equipment and feats seems like a lot of extra work that in no way adds value. With the exception of item slot restrictions and feats specific to a race, type, or size anything one character can get another one can too. Sure it is one thing to provide the important feats for a build like if you are giving a barbarian tripper mentioning that it gets improved trip from an ACF and taking knock-down and combat reflexes, but what is the benefit of specifying the other feats that either character can take?

And I don't argue the importance of talking about builds for said monster nor providing some numbers at some point of that build. I just want to know what is the benefit of fully fleshing out the two? It seems like a lot of extra work that doesn't provide any benefits and in fact clouds the water of comparing the two.

[MisterKaws]

I have seen just as many people make the exact opposite argument with similarly worded abilities on GitP so this seems to be an area where RAW isn't specific. Most recently there was a long discussion about epic sense motives detect thoughts ability functioning against mind blank which has very similar wording.

Anyways I think the need for a corpse, the 1 week time frame, and the fact that you can't reuse corpses ends being enough of a balance to make this ability just fine with a +1 LA in actual game play. You are restricted to what is inside your game and how much your dm is allowing the party to abuse planar binding.



why do you need a point buy, WBL, and feats to compare two builds though? That is my question, what are we gaining from adding these things.

I would in fact say using point buy instead of straight 10s clouds the water because of the added variation it adds with adding IMO no value. using straight 10s allows you to see the differences in build choices such as race and classes. Similarly adding in equipment and feats seems like a lot of extra work that in no way adds value. With the exception of item slot restrictions and feats specific to a race, type, or size anything one character can get another one can too. Sure it is one thing to provide the important feats for a build like if you are giving a barbarian tripper mentioning that it gets improved trip from an ACF and taking knock-down and combat reflexes, but what is the benefit of specifying the other feats that either character can take?

And I don't argue the importance of talking about builds for said monster nor providing some numbers at some point of that build. I just want to know what is the benefit of fully fleshing out the two? It seems like a lot of extra work that doesn't provide any benefits and in fact clouds the water of comparing the two.

Of course, you can compare both builds at full 10s without WBL or feats, but if you compare a monster with full 10s, base feats and no WBL to a tier 2 class with 28/32 point buy, WBL and feats, then we have a real problem. It's none or both, and we all know player classes suck with full 10s.

[liquidformat]

Of course, you can compare both builds at full 10s without WBL or feats, but if you compare a monster with full 10s, base feats and no WBL to a tier 2 class with 28/32 point buy, WBL and feats, then we have a real problem. It's none or both, and we all know player classes suck with full 10s.

the builds I have provided have all been base 10s with no equipment and mostly ignoring feats and skill points for both the monster and the comparison build...

The only time it seems necessary for point buy is when you are trying to compare with a human (who IMO is a bad comparison point), a caster, or in specific cases where something like two-weapon fighting is important for the comparison. Most feats only require 13 in a stat and often such as in the case of barbarian with wolf totem we are specifically avoiding said requirement as part of the build. And in the end besides when you are building around a specific feat chain commenting on feats and skills is only important in situations where you are verifying a build is correct or possible like looking at the skill required for a build like glutton/barb2/paladin2/blackguardx/witch salyerx to verify it is possible.

[MisterKaws]

the builds I have provided have all been base 10s with no equipment and mostly ignoring feats and skill points for both the monster and the comparison build...

The only time it seems necessary for point buy is when you are trying to compare with a human (who IMO is a bad comparison point), a caster, or in specific cases where something like two-weapon fighting is important for the comparison. Most feats only require 13 in a stat and often such as in the case of barbarian with wolf totem we are specifically avoiding said requirement as part of the build. And in the end besides when you are building around a specific feat chain commenting on feats and skills is only important in situations where you are verifying a build is correct or possible like looking at the skill required for a build like glutton/barb2/paladin2/blackguardx/witch salyerx to verify it is possible.

I just noticed now that you're, in fact, talking about the Glutton and went back to look at your post on the previous thread. Why are you comparing a 1/day nova to an all day stat distribution? Why are you talking about classes that the glutton can take just as well, albeit late? You failed to prove much because a glutton would be more effective as a barbarian than your presented build.

[liquidformat]

I just noticed now that you're, in fact, talking about the Glutton and went back to look at your post on the previous thread. Why are you comparing a 1/day nova to an all day stat distribution? Why are you talking about classes that the glutton can take just as well, albeit late? You failed to prove much because a glutton would be more effective as a barbarian than your presented build.

I use that same format (base 10s ignoring equipment and feats) for comparing monsters not just in the case of the Glutton. Those questions were all addressed in following posts, with one more level and if you take extra rage and/or extra wild shape as a feat you are looking at a 2-4/day nova which would be the 'expected' number of encounters. Also although it is just my personal experience I have never been in a game in over 15 years of playing 3/3.5 that has had over two encounters in a day so have never bothered with extra rage and never felt a need for it.

Also as I had said in further posts, while Glutton does benefit from barbarian and I gave stats for that, it will struggle trying to enter Fist of the forest due to skill requirements though it is dueable and bear warrior in fact makes it worse at the identified niche of tripping even though it gives it better ability scores, similarly primeval makes it worse at said job.

Moving back to the initial question, why do you need a point buy, WBL, and feats to compare two builds?

[MisterKaws]

I use that same format (base 10s ignoring equipment and feats) for comparing monsters not just in the case of the Glutton. Those questions were all addressed in following posts, with one more level and if you take extra rage and/or extra wild shape as a feat you are looking at a 2-4/day nova which would be the 'expected' number of encounters. Also although it is just my personal experience I have never been in a game in over 15 years of playing 3/3.5 that has had over two encounters in a day so have never bothered with extra rage and never felt a need for it.

Also as I had said in further posts, while Glutton does benefit from barbarian and I gave stats for that, it will struggle trying to enter Fist of the forest due to skill requirements though it is dueable and bear warrior in fact makes it worse at the identified niche of tripping even though it gives it better ability scores, similarly primeval makes it worse at said job.

Moving back to the initial question, why do you need a point buy, WBL, and feats to compare two builds?

In that specific example you gave, for one, if you gave the Glutton a high Int score, you could get easily into Fist of the Forest with a single dip into a skill-heavy class like Rogue or Factotum. It could also benefit from the AoO line of feats far more than a same-level Fighter, as I showed before.

[Efrate]

I just read the ability in the srd, and there is no provision about the body recently being dead. So any ancient corpse can by RAW get all their abilities they had in life, no restrictions on advanced decomposition. Am I missing something? No need for gentle repose from any outside source or anything.

[liquidformat]

I just read the ability in the srd, and there is no provision about the body recently being dead. So any ancient corpse can by RAW get all their abilities they had in life, no restrictions on advanced decomposition. Am I missing something? No need for gentle repose from any outside source or anything.

The body thief ability functions on eating the brain, so I don't think a standard ancient corpse that didn't have special preservation could qualify. But it doesn't have to be a well preserved corpse just the body with a brain still inside. It leaves a lot of gray area for the dm to fiat as they wish which isn't great.

In that specific example you gave, for one, if you gave the Glutton a high Int score, you could get easily into Fist of the Forest with a single dip into a skill-heavy class like Rogue or Factotum. It could also benefit from the AoO line of feats far more than a same-level Fighter, as I showed before.

To get more than 1 skill point per level out of its first 9 rhd you would need 18 int which is 16 points leaving 12 for everything else; doing so would eliminate the gap in strength and constitution the glutton has over the water orc, which like I said does little besides clouding the waters. Similarly dipping wilderness rogue or factotum only works if you pump int at the cost of the other ability scores that you actually care about and take a class level that does little to nothing for you besides give you skill points to qualify for prcs. I agree there are a number of feats that the glutton is better off taking, such as awesome blow and its prequisites, leap attack, and shock trooper to name a few though I am not sure that specifically adding them in actually does much for the comparison.

Over all it is probably proof that trying to get into FotF isn't a great idea. It is more worth while just straight up using all your skill points to enter FotF while dumping int even if it takes you a bit longer. Anyways, I made the build as a comparison point to get similar ability scores in a bruiser/beatstick type of build and already said trying to replicate it on the glutton is probably a waste of time as it would do better with something like barb2/paladin2/battle dancer 1-2/warhulk. The point was it being a reference point showing that the glutton's ability scores aren't that far out of expectations for its level, especially when that is really the only class features it gets. The other builds I showed were capable of doing things besides just being a beatstick and still be close to as good if not as good as the glutton in the beatstick category and they did a decent job of that without the need for fully fleshing out the build with all feats and equipment on either side.

[MisterKaws]

The body thief ability functions on eating the brain, so I don't think a standard ancient corpse that didn't have special preservation could qualify. But it doesn't have to be a well preserved corpse just the body with a brain still inside. It leaves a lot of gray area for the dm to fiat as they wish which isn't great.



To get more than 1 skill point per level out of its first 9 rhd you would need 18 int which is 16 points leaving 12 for everything else; doing so would eliminate the gap in strength and constitution the glutton has over the water orc, which like I said does little besides clouding the waters. Similarly dipping wilderness rogue or factotum only works if you pump int at the cost of the other ability scores that you actually care about and take a class level that does little to nothing for you besides give you skill points to qualify for prcs. I agree there are a number of feats that the glutton is better off taking, such as awesome blow and its prequisites, leap attack, and shock trooper to name a few though I am not sure that specifically adding them in actually does much for the comparison.

Over all it is probably proof that trying to get into FotF isn't a great idea. It is more worth while just straight up using all your skill points to enter FotF while dumping int even if it takes you a bit longer. Anyways, I made the build as a comparison point to get similar ability scores in a bruiser/beatstick type of build and already said trying to replicate it on the glutton is probably a waste of time as it would do better with something like barb2/paladin2/battle dancer 1-2/warhulk. The point was it being a reference point showing that the glutton's ability scores aren't that far out of expectations for its level, especially when that is really the only class features it gets. The other builds I showed were capable of doing things besides just being a beatstick and still be close to as good if not as good as the glutton in the beatstick category and they did a decent job of that without the need for fully fleshing out the build with all feats and equipment on either side.

Even with 2 Int, Factotum still gives 6 points. 10-4 is 6 y'know? If you put a 14 there you're getting 8 per level. Dip a couple levels, get into Barb, then go FotF. Probably 4 levels to do that.

[liquidformat]

Even with 2 Int, Factotum still gives 6 points. 10-4 is 6 y'know? If you put a 14 there you're getting 8 per level. Dip a couple levels, get into Barb, then go FotF. Probably 4 levels to do that.

You have to have int 3 to be playable, and as I said have 18 to get more than 1 skill point for your first 9 levels. How are you getting 10 skill points per level with factotum? It gives you 6+int, and 6-4 is 2 which if i am being honest isn't worth the dip, even if you bump up to 14 4 per level still isn't particularly worth the dip. But again for comparison's sake this really isn't doing anything to differentiate the glutton, well except show some of its inherent issues I suppose. Fact is -8 int is a pretty big issue that you either need to invest heavily to overcome or strategically pick feats and prcs that will lessen the impact.

Also there is some gray area as to what a -8 int means since by RAW all player races must have 3+ int. Does that mean in point buy I can completely dump int and it will magically bump up to 3, I can dump it but my first ability score point at level 4 must go to int, or does it mean I automatically have to use at least 3 points on int to make the character viable?

[Elkad]

Intellect Devourer.
Excellent DR, resistances, power/magic resistance (psi-magic transparency is the default), full blindsight, and a very nice selection of at-will powers, including some solid Immediate Action defensive ones?
Those appear to be fully augmented at will, so there is an argument that raising your manifester level (practiced manifester?) would continue to improve them. It's even fairly mobile. And decent (not great) at scouting.

Then there is bodythief. As written (poorly), it's just the big asterisk. Sorry, there are too many ways to twist it.
With some sort of reasonable limits (creature only dead for a day, and a HD limit (1-2x your own HD? Equal to your manifester level?), it's still worth another point of LA all by itself I think.

No bodythief? +1 6 sucky HD, but a fine bag of other stuff. I'd play one in a L7 game.
Limited Bodythief? +2
Puppeteering that Ancient Wyrm you found dead, even if only for a week? ***********

[No brains]

-0* It's hard to be a bruiser when you can't wield weapons and it's hard to be a caster with 6hd. Even considering its nice tricks, I don't know if I want to play it over something more simple.

[Inevitability]

A wide variety of votes for the brain nommer!

It pains me to say this, but if your post specifically includes the declaration that you're not using the thread-wide convention for what an asterisk means, I'm not going to count it. I don't like disqualifying votes, but I feel like ignoring the way I'm inevitably going to interpret it removes all value it has.

As far as the confusing .5 vote goes, that was me interpreting Elkad's post which included two separate LAs. Please don't see this as an endorsement of splitting votes in the future though.

+0: 3 votes
+1: 12 votes
+2: 0.5 votes

-0*: 5 votes
+0*: 1 vote
+1*: 1.5 vote

As can be seen, an asteriskless +1 is by far the most popular rating, with -0* being the runner-up. In light of this, LA will be changed to +1.

[Inevitability]

Maenad

A typical splatbook race: fun abilities, but nothing to set it apart and barely any support.

Maenads have very little going for them: they get two bonus power points, 1/day Sonic Energy Ray, and a rage-like ability that increases strength at the expense of intelligence and wisdom for 4 rounds a day. That's a bad combination on basically anything except psychic warriors, and even psychic warriors have tons of other races they'd rather be.

Then again, this is the thread that gave by-the-book goblins +0 LA, so I don't think it's fair to condemn maenads to -0 purgatory. +0 LA, but please ask your DM for a buff.

[danielxcutter]

Uh... wouldn't these suck as Psychic Warriors too? Wilder wouldn't get their PP and power save DCs dropped, so that could work I guess, but that's probably about it. Also, psionics are one of the few(if not only) subsystems that can grant insight bonuses to stats; off the top of my head I can think of Adrenaline Boost for one.

[Efrate]

Splatbook race indeed. A weak +0.

[liquidformat]

I vote we change the bog standard goblin to -0 along with this thing...

[remetagross]

Yeah, that's a direct LA+0.

[MisterKaws]

Maybe with Ascetic Mage and Enlightened Fist? But then again, why the hell would you be using a psionic race on a caster class? Maybe it could be good to qualify for Psionic Focus feats, and maybe for casting in combat by using it to take 15.

I think it could work, but wouldn't be the strongest thing ever.

I agree with the LA +0 but the class needs at least an ability score modifier plus something extra, maybe another psi-like.



By the way, I think you should put a DM warning in the Intellect Devourer's main post about the issue with using bruiser-type monsters on a table with an ID player.