The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[liquidformat]

You are technically correct.

The best type of correct!

[unseenmage]

The best type of correct!

Hermes approves this message.

[Thurbane]

Forgot to mention: Reekmurk is another one that made it into my list of awful monster names.

[RedWarlock]

Forgot to mention: Reekmurk is another one that made it into my list of awful monster names.

Seriously, though, what the heck IS a good name, for something that doesn’t exist in mythology already? Fictional names don’t please you, descriptive combined terms don’t work, what WOULD?

[Thurbane]

Seriously, though, what the heck IS a good name, for something that doesn’t exist in mythology already? Fictional names don’t please you, descriptive combined terms don’t work, what WOULD?

That's seems a bit of an overreaction.

Here's some I like - they are generally evocative and/or interesting (IMHO):

All-Consuming Hunger (Und)
Angel of Decay (LM)
Assassin Vine
Caller in Darkness (XPH)
Charnel Hound (MM3)
Corruptor of Fate (MM4)
Crimson Death (MM2)
Frostwind Virago (MM5)
Ineffable Horror (Und)
Mageripper Swarm (MM4)
Mur-Zhagul (Demon Troll) (UE)
Ogre, Skullcrusher (MM3)
Painspeaker (ToM)
Reason Stealer (MM2)
Reth Dekala (ToM)
Sanguineous Drinker (MM5)
Scalamagdrion (MoF)
Shadow of the Void (ELH)
Spellgaunt (MM2)
Unholy Scion (HoH)
Winterspawn (Fr)
Worm that Walks (ELH)

[RedWarlock]

It’s been months since I saw the thread in question, so I’ve only recently seen you tearing down names you didn’t like. Sorry if you read an overreaction into my wording, I’m posting between sets at the gym, so a bit terse.

[javcs]

To be fair, there are a lot of lousy names.
And lousy names stick out more than the ones that passable or even particularly good names.
The middle of the road names get ignored, the good ones get a brief comment and general agreement, while the lousy ones get made fun of and alternatives suggested.

[No brains]

The more I learn about language, the less critical I am of fantasy names. In some languages, literally describing something is how stuff got its name. No monster name in the world is ever going to strike me as stupid after I learned the origin of the word 'muscle'.

For me, S+ tier names are the ones that help me learn the etymology of fantasy languages. Those have the benefits of just having cool syllables in them, being apt descriptions of the monster, and they flesh out elements of the game world by having me investigate their meaning. We've all had a laugh at Ssvaklor, but if that literally meant 'snake dragon freak' in Yuan-Ti, I would have to concede it is a useful and immersive name, even if it sounds a little silly to me.

[javcs]

The more I learn about language, the less critical I am of fantasy names. In some languages, literally describing something is how stuff got its name. No monster name in the world is ever going to strike me as stupid after I learned the origin of the word 'muscle'.

For me, S+ tier names are the ones that help me learn the etymology of fantasy languages. Those have the benefits of just having cool syllables in them, being apt descriptions of the monster, and they flesh out elements of the game world by having me investigate their meaning. We've all had a laugh at Ssvaklor, but if that literally meant 'snake dragon freak' in Yuan-Ti, I would have to concede it is a useful and immersive name, even if it sounds a little silly to me.

True, but then you'd need to work out chunks of multiple languages.
I'm unconvinced that WotC did that kind of thing.

But yeah, that kind of thing is huge for getting immersed into a universe.
Tolkien is probably the best example of that kind of thing I can think of.

[Inevitability]

Bacchae

Extraplanar frat bros: just what D&D needed!

Jokes aside, bacchae are pretty good! They got a nice chassis with two outsider HD, modest boosts to all stats except intelligence (+0) and wisdom (-2), some neat defensive traits in acid and electricity resistance, polymorph immunity, and SR 11, and two natural claw attacks.

Furthermore, bacchae get 2/day Rage, which is actually more than most barbarians have by then. They also get Rake, but that's not too relevant as it forces you to use both claws.

On top of that, they have some SLAs. 3/day Charm Person and Hideous Laughter are hardly bad at low levels (though the latter will be penalized against non-outsiders), and 1/day Emotion is bigger magic than nearly any PC has by now. I'm not sure how updating works when a spell gets split in three or four others that all have different names, so I'll just assume this SLA is the original unedited 3.0 version (in which case it's a very versatile buff/debuff/utility/SoL spell).

Finally, as an ability that I'm not sure will ever come up in gameplay, bacchae can attempt to ensnare and permanently transform those who join their carousing. Technically, it should be usable as a sole character, but the DC of 10 (which the target must fail twice) is going to limit its usefulness. Then again, convincing the BBEG to go out for drinks and turning him into a drunken reveler sure nets you some style points.

All things considered, I'm comfortable with assigning bacchae +1 LA. A direct comparison is tricky, but barbarian is probably closest, in which case they have more rages, better stats, and some good SLAs backing it all up. Also elemental resistances are nice.

[Thurbane]

OK, finally a creature worth a detailed analysis:

• Medium Outsider (from memory I thought they were Fey...obviously Outsider is vastly preferable)
• 2 RHD, of the equally best kind. Also, the most manageable amount apart from a single HD.
• 30 ft move: average.
• +5 natural AC bonus: decent.
• 2 claws: natural attacks are good in the right build. Also rock throwing for 1d6; not great, but you never know when you might be caught with no ranged weapon.
• Debauch: odd ability that only seems to work for groups of Bacchae. Limited combat application. Obviously much more use as a monster/plot ability, than a PC ability.
• Rend: OKish if you're going to focus on natural weapons.
• Rage as a 1st level barbarian, 2/day: not bad. Not sure if it counts as true rage for most reqs.
• SLAs: charm person 3/day, Tasha's hideous laughter 3/day, emotion 1/day; good at lower levels, but quickly tapers off.
• Outsider traits: darkvision and harder to raise from the dead. Meh.
• Acid and electricity resistance 10: not bad.
• Immunity to polymorph: very situational, but nice.
• SR 11: only good if it scales with level, which it is not noted as doing.
• Str +4, Dex +2, Con +4, Wis -2, Cha +4: net +12; not half bad.
• Okish racial skill list.
• Humanoid in form and can speak: no issues with gear or class progression.

Their lore/fluff does not lend itself well to an adventuring lifestyle - but I suppose most PCs are snowflakes and often ignore their racial fluff.

They have some good ability mods, moderately useful special abilities, and a manageable amount of RHD. I feel like their ability mods alone pretty much push them into LA +2. In the context of this thread, I won't bump them any higher than that. LA +2 is the vote from me. They'd probably make an OK gish or Cha based melee type.

[Efrate]

These are between 1 and 2 for me, but I think they can push a +2. There is a lot of good stuff there. I'll round up this time.

[ViperMagnum357]

Net abilities are a little low for LA +1, and quite low for LA +2, but natural AC +5 is well above par. On the one hand, their SLAs and raw combat abilities are way out of line for so few RHD; on the other hand, none of them scale well, or have the flexibility to substantially compliment a build.

I am going to go for a strong LA +1 here. They have way too much to be LA +0, but what they have scales poorly enough that they basically even out somewhere around ECL 7-8 or so. As a caveat, perhaps a mild DM warning about using them in low level games around ECL 3-5, where Charm Person, Hideous Laughter, and their physical abilities are likely to outstrip other PCs. By ECL 7-8, the lost HD and being 3 levels behind in a build will start to hurt, while casters get their 4th level spells and other builds get into the meat of their class features.

[StevenC21]

I agree. Strong LA +1.

While their natural AC is higher than average, this quickly tapers off, and most of their abilities are only particularly useful at lower levels.

[liquidformat]

The more I learn about language, the less critical I am of fantasy names. In some languages, literally describing something is how stuff got its name. No monster name in the world is ever going to strike me as stupid after I learned the origin of the word 'muscle'.

For me, S+ tier names are the ones that help me learn the etymology of fantasy languages. Those have the benefits of just having cool syllables in them, being apt descriptions of the monster, and they flesh out elements of the game world by having me investigate their meaning. We've all had a laugh at Ssvaklor, but if that literally meant 'snake dragon freak' in Yuan-Ti, I would have to concede it is a useful and immersive name, even if it sounds a little silly to me.

My favorite is normally literal translations from German to English, you get some amazing stuff. Like the word Brustwarze, makes me giggle every time I think about it.

Anyways back to Bacchae, at low levels this thing is nasty powerful, all good saves, full bab, decent stat mods, some nice slas, and resistances are all great and make this thing quite powerful at 3-6. However, at +2 at level 4 the Bacchae is super squishy and by level 8 its SR is worthless, and the save DCs on its SLAs and general usefulness of them makes them mostly forgettable. By level 10+ the only thing you really have going for you are your ability scores which frankly you are already loosing 2 class levels to get. So we are left with a monster that between levels 4-6 should have +2; from 7-9 should have +1 and after that should be +0 since its racial traits scale so horribly. The only thing that seems fair is to take an average and see what we get, by my count that is 9/20 (2*3+3*1+11*0) which is .45 since in D&D we don't round up I will give this a +0 LA.

[javcs]

I think the Bacchae are strongish early, but none of their abilities scale particularly well, unless your DM allows Bacchae Rage to benefit from Barbarian Rage upgrades. And nothing is particularly good later on.

There are a number of less quantifiable factors when it comes to them as well. These are mostly detrimental.

I give them a LA +0.
Though, with buyoff, I'd probably call them a +1. But since there is no buyoff assumed, they're a +0.

[Celestia]

I give them a LA +0.
Though, with buyoff, I'd probably call them a +1. But since there is no buyoff assumed, they're a +0.

Ditto this.

[Blue Jay]

I don't think it's quite high enough for LA +2, but it's certainly worth +1, so I'm voting LA+1 for the Bacchae.

[Remuko]

My favorite is normally literal translations from German to English, you get some amazing stuff. Like the word Brustwarze, makes me giggle every time I think about it.

Anyways back to Bacchae, at low levels this thing is nasty powerful, all good saves, full bab, decent stat mods, some nice slas, and resistances are all great and make this thing quite powerful at 3-6. However, at +2 at level 4 the Bacchae is super squishy and by level 8 its SR is worthless, and the save DCs on its SLAs and general usefulness of them makes them mostly forgettable. By level 10+ the only thing you really have going for you are your ability scores which frankly you are already loosing 2 class levels to get. So we are left with a monster that between levels 4-6 should have +2; from 7-9 should have +1 and after that should be +0 since its racial traits scale so horribly. The only thing that seems fair is to take an average and see what we get, by my count that is 9/20 (2*3+3*1+11*0) which is .45 since in D&D we don't round up I will give this a +0 LA.

I think the Bacchae are strongish early, but none of their abilities scale particularly well, unless your DM allows Bacchae Rage to benefit from Barbarian Rage upgrades. And nothing is particularly good later on.

There are a number of less quantifiable factors when it comes to them as well. These are mostly detrimental.

I give them a LA +0.
Though, with buyoff, I'd probably call them a +1. But since there is no buyoff assumed, they're a +0.

Gonna have to agree with these. Theyre definitely top tier +0 though.

[ZamielVanWeber]

+1 from me. For a few levels they are just better than a barbarian. Better skills, better saves. Same HP (with a higher minimum). More skill points. More rages. If their rage stacks with a barbarian the barbarian will never catch up, since who would not mind a 2 level PrC dip that gives a pile of stats, saves, and 2 more rages ASAP.

[Caelestion]

Anything that falls into the "simply better" category has to be at least LA +1.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Nice at level 2, but at LA +1, I'd rather have barbarian 1/bard 2 or similar. None of the stuff bacchae have scales well. LA +0 it is.

[Sutr]

Anyways back to Bacchae, at low levels this thing is nasty powerful, all good saves, full bab, decent stat mods, some nice slas, and resistances are all great and make this thing quite powerful at 3-6. However, at +2 at level 4 the Bacchae is super squishy and by level 8 its SR is worthless, and the save DCs on its SLAs and general usefulness of them makes them mostly forgettable. By level 10+ the only thing you really have going for you are your ability scores which frankly you are already loosing 2 class levels to get. So we are left with a monster that between levels 4-6 should have +2; from 7-9 should have +1 and after that should be +0 since its racial traits scale so horribly. The only thing that seems fair is to take an average and see what we get, by my count that is 9/20 (2*3+3*1+11*0) which is .45 since in D&D we don't round up I will give this a +0 LA.

+2 for me then. If at any point it would unbalance the game like a +2 that is what it is. Plus most games I see are lower level.

[Thurbane]

At LA +0, you're better than a 2nd level Barbarian? Lion Totem pounce doesn't come online until you hit BAB +6 anyway.

A Barbarian gets more HP, fast movement, and uncanny dodge.

A 2HD Bacchae can rage 1 more time/day; good Ref and Will saves (as well as Fort); more skill points; +5 natural armor, SLAs, two elemental resistances, and 12 more ability score points...

True, their abilities taper off as you level up, but I can't see them as anything less than LA +1. For my bit, I'm sticking with my initial +2.

[ExLibrisMortis]

At LA +0, you're better than a 2nd level Barbarian? Lion Totem pounce doesn't come online until you hit BAB +6 anyway.

Whirling Frenzy is something that's (probably) only available to actual barbarians, not to bacchae, so barbarians are way stronger than bacchae at level 2 (when it comes to melee damage).

[Mike Miller]

This is a tough one. They are definitely a strong choice at low levels. However, as mentioned, their abilities don't maintain their usefulness long term. I will vote on the side of caution here with +1.

[Aniikinis]

+1 from me. I've played one before and they're real fun, especially when you manage to convert an entire town and go on a crusading bar runwild adventure. I actually based the idea for the revelers I made awhile back off of these guys.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The main advantage of a rage ability that's actually called Rage is that it can benefit from all sorts of stuff intended for Barbarians (though many of these will require at least 1 level of Barb because the prereq. specifies "class feature"). Can't use one of my favorites (Shifter Savagery), but Totem Rager, Raging Mount, Blazing/Frozen Berserker, Cobalt Rage... probably a few other things I don't know about, can all be used an extra two times per day. It's essentially Extra Rages as a bonus feat. Sure, they don't scale with your actual rages, but most people would prestige out of Barbarian before that became relevant regardless.

[Dimers]

I'll go for LA +1 for the bacchae. No reasoning that hasn't been said.

I wish "debauchery" extended further into the English language. A character that succeeds on the 2nd Will save should be "rebauched" ... a staid and upstanding person could be said to "possess great bauch" ...

The more I learn about language, the less critical I am of fantasy names. In some languages, literally describing something is how stuff got its name.

The poison god Zehir seems to have gotten his name directly from the Indic root for "poison".

[Netbrian]

I'd vote for +1 normally, +2 if LA buyback is allowed. This race seems like an especially good reason to use those rules, because it could help counteract the way its powers start off so strong, and then taper off in usefulness as time goes on.

I wish there was more support for scaling monster abilities at higher levels -- something like "as you gain levels, your SLAs become harder to resist, you gain more SR, and you can throw bigger rocks." Debauch doesn't add much mechanically, but would be a fun reason to play Bacchae as a PC race.