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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Maenads seem fine at +0. Certainly less controversy here than with the intellect devourer.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Its outburst ability might be combined with rage for extra fun, but then again, if you go Barbarian you might as well go half-orc (or any of the other many suitable races) and get the +2 to strength always.

    I agree with a weak LA +0

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Maenad is a weak LA +0.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Maenads are unremarkable, but theyíre perfectly playable. +0 is fine.

    Theyíre mostly useful as a way of getting the psionic keyword on a melee-ish build with no intent to take psionic class levels. The scream and the not-rage are back-pocket tricks at best that wonít define the character, but having the occasional ability to do sonic damage at range isnít bad even if the usage is obnoxiously limited.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    1-HD humanoids with 0 LA have to be LA 0 by definition, because otherwise you're in a farcical situation of suggesting that they need to be higher-level to compete with 1st-level characters.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    1-HD humanoids with 0 LA have to be LA 0 by definition, because otherwise you're in a farcical situation of suggesting that they need to be higher-level to compete with 1st-level characters.
    -0 doesn't imply negative LA. It implies a need to give extra abilities to the race until it is level-appropriate for how many HD it has.

    In this case, it would involve giving them a couple attribute modifiers(I suggest +2 Str -2 Int) and maybe increasing the number of uses on their scream to 3 or 5/day. At least that would make them good at delivering sneak attacks if nothing else(as Wilders they suck anyhow).
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    1-HD humanoids with 0 LA have to be LA 0 by definition, because otherwise you're in a farcical situation of suggesting that they need to be higher-level to compete with 1st-level characters.
    I completely disagree and we in fact have an example that can be referenced.

    MM kobold without Races of the dragon and the two web enhancements is hands down -0 LA
    abilities -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Con Net: -4
    Small
    +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks
    +1 NA
    Light sensitivity

    that is just complete garbage and justifies -0 LA.

    Now take the upgrades from the web enhancement and Races of the dragon (ignoring abusive readings).

    add: slight of build, 3 natural weapons, light and heavy pick prof as bonus feats, great pick martial prof instead of exotic, Draconic Rite of Passage, greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Dragonwrought feat and subsequent access to dragon only feats.

    That is enough to bump the humble kobold up from a -0 LA to a +0 LA and even high end.

    The arguments people are giving in favor of a +0 LA for Maenad seems to be along the lines of 'these really suck and aren't a good choice for anything but +0 LA' These arguments seem to support a -0 LA as this thing is horrible. We have already agreed that half orcs are at the bottom of +0 if you are saying this is worse than a half orc then it doesn't seem like +0 LA is reasonable.

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    1-HD humanoids with 0 LA have to be LA 0 by definition, because otherwise you're in a farcical situation of suggesting that they need to be higher-level to compete with 1st-level characters.
    They aren't a full level behind, of course, but there's essentially no reason to ever play one.

    They're a -0. It probably wouldn't take that much to push them over into a weak +0, though.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    "No reason to play one" doesn't mean "can't compete with others of its level". A maenad is bleh, certainly, but it's definitely not weaker than a half-orc.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Maenads, at a glance, have very little to stand out about them. Again, I'm fair from an expert on psionics, but 2 bonus PP seems quite good, at lower levels anyhow. Not quite LA -0 territory. LA +0 seems a good fit.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Maenads, at a glance, have very little to stand out about them. Again, I'm fair from an expert on psionics, but 2 bonus PP seems quite good, at lower levels anyhow. Not quite LA -0 territory. LA +0 seems a good fit.
    That's.... actually a good point. It's kinda easy to forget that 2pp actually means 2 extra level 1 spells. Still, compared to Elan they're kind of lackluster.

    Better than Half-Orc, anyhow.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    2 pp is somewhere between two first-level spells and +1d6 damage on a first-level spell twice a day. It's certainly good at level 1, but it scales incredibly badly. Even kalashtar, who have 1 bonus pp/HD, don't break LA +1 in WotC's book, so...

    LA +0 for the maenad.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    2 pp is somewhere between two first-level spells and +1d6 damage on a first-level spell twice a day. It's certainly good at level 1, but it scales incredibly badly. Even kalashtar, who have 1 bonus pp/HD, don't break LA +1 in WotC's book, so...

    LA +0 for the maenad.
    Kalashtar is one of the better +0 races indeed. 1PP/level, four +2 modifiers on social skills, Mindlink 1/day and +2 on saves against Mind-Affecting. Just the bonuses on social skills make the Half-Elf cry in fetal position like an aggrieved toddler.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Kalashtar is one of the better +0 races indeed. 1PP/level, four +2 modifiers on social skills, Mindlink 1/day and +2 on saves against Mind-Affecting. Just the bonuses on social skills make the Half-Elf cry in fetal position like an aggrieved toddler.
    To be fair making a half-elf cry in the fetal position like an aggrieved toddler isn't exactly a high bar, they are bottom of the barrel for +0 base races...

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    To be fair making a half-elf cry in the fetal position like an aggrieved toddler isn't exactly a high bar, they are bottom of the barrel for +0 base races...
    But making them cry because of a minor racial trait most players using the race don't even remember? That's the beautiful part.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Yeah, I was gonna say "ain't worse than a half-elf." LA +0.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Mind Flayers, Psionic


    Remember the regular mind flayers, rated two years back? With their at-will AoE save-or-lose, telepathy, spell resistance, and ability to enter one of the most broken PrCs in the game? Yeah, they are back.

    Psionic mind flayers actually differ in a pretty significant way. Where their regular ilk has a number of SLAs, the psionic flayer just has complete psion manifesting as a 9th-level character. On something with 8 RHD.

    One thing I'm glad about: psionic flayers can't abuse at-will astral projection (looking back, the regular flayer is gonna get a pre-emptively added asterisk just for that). However, that still leaves the very powerful Mind Blast, good stats, high SR, telepathy, and psion casting. Based on the casting level and HD amounts alone, I think anything short of +2 is vastly underestimating just how well 'psion with better stats and Mind Blast' stacks up to 'psion'.

    And then there's illithid savant, which I'm not sure how to evaluate let alone rate. I think the regular illithid rating settled on not including it because one class shouldn't impact a rating, but I'm not sure how well that stacks up to more recent ratings.

    Considering the full caster perks in addition to all the other goodies, +3 is a fine LA.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2019-07-16 at 01:58 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I think that a +3 is justified. Trading two levels of manifesting for a buff to every single ability score, some of which are fairly sizable, plus a bunch of neat special abilities, seems reasonable, especially when the +8 int almost makes up for the 2 ML in terms of DCs and power points.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I'll say LA +3* for Psionic Flayer, removing the ability to enter Ilithiid Savant.
    Last edited by MisterKaws; 2019-07-13 at 05:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    LA +3* sounds more than fair enough. They're a natural T1 caster, with excellent stats and supporting abilities, and that's not getting into the deliberately unquantifiable Illithid Savant PrC.

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    LA +3 seems appropriate. Any beastie with full casting in a top shelf class and substantial stat boosts requires due caution; Having a caster level one above its RHD is an automatic +1 LA. The rest of the package, even with Aberration RHD, is enough for another +2 LA or thereabouts. I do not think the asterisk is warranted; but Savant is something to keep in mind.

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I think +3 is fine here. No asterisk because as much as IS is absurd, if you allow that abomination you are nearly in TO territory already and the caution is thrown to the wind. Plus IS is not a part of the monster itself, like halfling outrider is not part of being a halfling.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I am torn between+2 and +3 but I also don't think an asterisk is necessary. I will vote later when I make up my mind.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I would say that any game that uses the Illithid Savant would also be TO enough to allow the cheese necessary to qualify for it without being an Illithid. Thus, I don't think an asterisk is needed.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I think you mean retroactive rather than preemptive if weíre going back and editing in an asterisk way after the fact, but anyway.

    +2 is a pretty clear minimum. +3 is pretty punishing but honestly might be appropriate anyway, since +1 of that isnít really paying for abilities so much as just accounting for (scalable) ML 9 on an 8 HD chassis. Would I play it at +3? Eh, hard to say. Thereís enough going on that itís challenging to give it a traditional rating. Iíll say +3 for now, but I might be willing to drop to +2 if given a persuasive argument why +3 is too much.
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I don't feel qualified to actually vote, but I do wish to mention that a psionic flayer can get 9th-level powers as long it gets no more than a +4.

    Also, Telepathy is one of the stronger disciplines; even considering that immunity to mind-affecting abilities gets fairly common at high levels, it's not quite universal, Protection from Evil et al. only work on (Compulsion) effects, and Schism is awesome.

    Do note that a fairly minor drawback is that you need to regularly eat brains to stay alive and healthy as well as "normal" food, as described in Lords of Madness; probably not too difficult for an adventuring flayer and it's only once a month or so I think, but still worth noting.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Regarding aberration HD: though usually these are regarded as quite bad, they are a straight upgrade over psion HD. I think +3LA is more than fair in this case. If it wasn't the cut-off point for 9th level powers I could even see an argument for +4LA.

    a comparison between a psionic mindflayer an an 11th level gray elf psion, assuming a base stat array before racials of 8, 14, 14, 18, 10, 10

    attribute mindflayer, psionic gray elf psion 11
    HD 8d8+24(63) 11d4+11(40)
    Skill points (cap per skill) 110(11) 98(14)
    max power level 5 6
    powerpoints 108 133
    special attacks mind blast -
    special defences power resistance 25 immunity to sleep, +2 bonus to saving throws against enchantment spells.
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Oh yes, even ignoring all the other stuff an illithid comes with, they have d8 HD, medium BAB and +8 Int, so they're already a straight upgrade on a standard psion (even in DSP's Pathfinder upgrade, where they get d6 HD).

    As for the asterisk, it's probably not needed, since any GM who allows the Savant PrC either knows exactly what they're letting themself in for or is going to have much bigger problems than just a Psion But Better. I would still play one at LA +3, asterisk and/or PrC or otherwise.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Regarding aberration HD: though usually these are regarded as quite bad, they are a straight upgrade over psion HD. I think +3LA is more than fair in this case. If it wasn't the cut-off point for 9th level powers I could even see an argument for +4LA.
    I could honestly still see an argument for +4 LA.
    Sicne looking at the comparison you made, we can see that its a very strong +3.

    Its slightly weaker in PP. But has the advantage that it can spare a lot of power by relying on its free Mind Blast.
    And while it does lose out on a power level here, then that is a lot less relevant for psions.
    Telepathy also opens up for mindsight, thats almost brokenly good in such a large radius.
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  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I donít often vote, but I agree on the +3. Full psion levels are just way more customizable than the fixed SLA list of the non-psi MF, with a lot more potential.

    Plus I need to tag in to watch the thread.

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