The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[Mike Miller]

After some thought, I feel as though +3 is in line with this thread. I was still having a hard time deciding over two or three. I strongly disagree with the arguments towards four though.

[Inevitability]

I think you mean retroactive rather than preemptive if we’re going back and editing in an asterisk way after the fact, but anyway.

I was referring to how evaluating psionic versions of (technically?) nonpsionic monsters also includes taking a second look at the default monster's LA. If I didn't add the asterisk, I'd have expected a few comments like 'default illithid really needs an asterisk cuz at-will Astral Projection', and I decided to be ahead of those.

[Elkad]

I'm in at +3 as well. IS isn't a consideration, that's a class problem.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Lemme hop on that +3 bandwagon. Losing 9ths is what the designers thought was a good price for turning incorporeal and, honestly, this pile isnot as annoying as dealing with an incorporeal character. +3 is good.

[Zaq]

Do note that a fairly minor drawback is that you need to regularly eat brains to stay alive and healthy as well as "normal" food, as described in Lords of Madness; probably not too difficult for an adventuring flayer and it's only once a month or so I think, but still worth noting.

There are, if desired, ways around that. Even just taking sustenance as a power known is a very simple option if there are social or ethical reasons (something something nothing but CG rebels yearning to buck stereotypes of evil kin something something) why brain eating might not be acceptable/desirable.

Or, you know, give in to your horrifying alien nature and eat humanoid brains. I mean, you’re already playing a freakin’ illlithid. But the point is that there really is a baked-in option (that doesn’t even require gold or other sourcebooks) if for some crazy reason the group/GM feels that playing a mind flayer is cool but letting that mind flayer flay minds is not cool.

[danielxcutter]

There are, if desired, ways around that. Even just taking sustenance as a power known is a very simple option if there are social or ethical reasons (something something nothing but CG rebels yearning to buck stereotypes of evil kin something something) why brain eating might not be acceptable/desirable.

Or, you know, give in to your horrifying alien nature and eat humanoid brains. I mean, you’re already playing a freakin’ illlithid. But the point is that there really is a baked-in option (that doesn’t even require gold or other sourcebooks) if for some crazy reason the group/GM feels that playing a mind flayer is cool but letting that mind flayer flay minds is not cool.

Plus it's probably a bit less ethically questionable when it's someone who literally tried to kill you anyways... well, in comparison.

[MisterKaws]

We eat things of other races that are less intelligent than us. In our case, animals.

They eat things of other races that are less intelligent than them. The only difference is that the things of other races just happen to be us.

[lord_khaine]

Plus it's probably a bit less ethically questionable when it's someone who literally tried to kill you anyways... well, in comparison.

According to Lords of Madness, Illithids wont care.
Concepts such as empathy, ethic or compassion are utterly alien to them.
So they would not have more empathy for a tasty brain, than we would for a chocolate bar.

[noob]

We eat things of other races that are less intelligent than us. In our case, animals.

They eat things of other races that are less intelligent than them. The only difference is that the things of other races just happen to be us.

There is another difference: humans are smart enough to have an alignment while normal animals do not.
If you go and eat the brains of true neutral aligned humans I am not going to stop you.

[MisterKaws]

There is another difference: humans are smart enough to have an alignment while normal animals do not.
If you go and eat the brains of true neutral aligned humans I am not going to stop you.

That's what the books written by humans say. Animals may very well have concepts such as familial love and friendship.

[liquidformat]

That's what the books written by humans say. Animals may very well have concepts such as familial love and friendship.

From my experience with having pets they most definitely do.

Anyways, I think between the straight upgrade from psion to aberration hd, the ability scores, and racial bonuses, I am comfortable with a +4 LA, Loosing 9s seems to be a fair trade for this package. With DeTess' comparison mind flayer is still an upgrade from gray elf at +3.

[noob]

That's what the books written by humans say. Animals may very well have concepts such as familial love and friendship.

Which is not alignment.
Animals can not choose to have an alignment unless they get 3 int or more but then they lose the animal type(and do not necessarily gets a new type which can cause the creation of typeless creatures)
Also I am fine with itilidths eating neutral aligned humans.

[javcs]

I think I'll go with a +3. That leaves it a full power level behind.


Also ... I think in the 3.5 update, baseline Mind Flayers lost At Will Astral Projection.
Unless they got it back in Errata or there was a screwup in the first printing (July 2003) of the 3.5 MM1, where they "only" have Charm Monster, Detect Thoughts, Levitate, Plane Shift, and Suggestion. Which is entirely possible.
Still, at will Charm Monster might merit a DM caution by itself.

[lord_khaine]

A detail that seems to be overlooked is that Mind Flayers manifest a level above their HD.
So they wont lose 9th level powers with +4 LA. A mindflayer(8)Telepath(8) manifests as a level 17 telepath.
And so they can handle the +4 LA im voting for.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Yeah I'll throw in for +4 LA. That's the full mindflayer package, plus 9th level powers.

EDIT: Although perhaps we should look at mindlfayers for a gish build or something, psion being Tier 2.

[Celestia]

+4 is just absurd. Illithids aren't that good. +3 is more than enough.

[ExLibrisMortis]

At LA +3, you trade two levels of psion manifesting for a few hit points, ability scores, PR that scales with level, and Mind Blast. Most of the abilities aren't that good to a pure psion, except for the PR, which is four points higher than the power resistance power can give you (barring the use of Overchannel or other ML boosters, of course), and Mind Blast, which has a long enough duration and big enough area that it's worth using (note that the DC is Charisma-based, which is not ideal for a psion, but you still get +6 Cha, so it's going to be a decently difficult save). Extract is just a fancy way to coup de grace someone, which is cool, but not hugely powerful.

A 12th-level psion with 25 Intelligence (18 base, +3 increases, +4 headband of intellect) will have 126 + 42 = 168 power points.
A psion 6/constructor 6 with the same Intelligence will have 106 + 38 = 144 power points.
A mind flayer psion 1 with 30 Intelligence (18 base, +8 racial, +4 headband of intellect) will have 88 + 50 = 138 power points.

So the illithid's manifesting is quite a bit worse than a straight psion's, having no sixth-level powers, 18% fewer power points and lower manifester level (total number of your highest-level power you can manifest is about the same, but your highest-level power is weaker). It is closer to a psion who's lost a manifester level to a nice PrC, though less able to get future PrC features (capstones, especially, insofar they're relevant).

I don't think I'd play an illithid for the power at LA +3. I'd rather just have a psion/PrC, with more power points, higher ML, and deeper into a relevant PrC. If I really wanted to play an illithid specifically, I'd probably be willing to take the hit at +3, though, treating it as an okay PrC. I can see why many people voted +3.

At LA +2, the illithid would be like a powerful PrC; you lose a manifester level, but you get some perks (small gain in bab, nice hp gain), good PR, and Mind blast. I'm fine with that, really. I'll go LA +2 for these.

[Remuko]

At LA +3, you trade two levels of psion manifesting for a few hit points, ability scores, PR that scales with level, and Mind Blast. Most of the abilities aren't that good to a pure psion, except for the PR, which is four points higher than the power resistance power can give you (barring the use of Overchannel or other ML boosters, of course), and Mind Blast, which has a long enough duration and big enough area that it's worth using (note that the DC is Charisma-based, which is not ideal for a psion, but you still get +6 Cha, so it's going to be a decently difficult save). Extract is just a fancy way to coup de grace someone, which is cool, but not hugely powerful.

A 12th-level psion with 25 Intelligence (18 base, +3 increases, +4 headband of intellect) will have 126 + 42 = 168 power points.
A psion 6/constructor 6 with the same Intelligence will have 106 + 38 = 144 power points.
A mind flayer psion 1 with 30 Intelligence (18 base, +8 racial, +4 headband of intellect) will have 88 + 50 = 138 power points.

So the illithid's manifesting is quite a bit worse than a straight psion's, having no sixth-level powers, 18% fewer power points and lower manifester level (total number of your highest-level power you can manifest is about the same, but your highest-level power is weaker). It is closer to a psion who's lost a manifester level to a nice PrC, though less able to get future PrC features (capstones, especially, insofar they're relevant).

I don't think I'd play an illithid for the power at LA +3. I'd rather just have a psion/PrC, with more power points, higher ML, and deeper into a relevant PrC. If I really wanted to play an illithid specifically, I'd probably be willing to take the hit at +3, though, treating it as an okay PrC. I can see why many people voted +3.

At LA +2, the illithid would be like a powerful PrC; you lose a manifester level, but you get some perks (small gain in bab, nice hp gain), good PR, and Mind blast. I'm fine with that, really. I'll go LA +2 for these.

Agree with this. +2 is my vote

[Lans]

From my experience with having pets they most definitely do.

Anyways, I think between the straight upgrade from psion to aberration hd, the ability scores, and racial bonuses, I am comfortable with a +4 LA, Loosing 9s seems to be a fair trade for this package. With DeTess' comparison mind flayer is still an upgrade from gray elf at +3.

Wouldn't they still get 9ths with a +4?

[liquidformat]

Wouldn't they still get 9ths with a +4?

Yep, math wasn't my friend today...

[StevenC21]

While the Mind Flayer is certainly powerful, it's not powerful enough for +3 LA.

Losing out on another ML and associated traits is too hard a hit.

+2 LA

[OgresAreCute]

I'll go for +3 for the psionic mind flayer.

[DeTess]

Whoops, yeah, seems that I miscalculated that one. I still feel that he leap to +4LA is just a bit too big as it puts them more than a full power-level behind for most of their career. Maybe implement reverse buy-off, where they gain an additional LA after they get 9th level powers :p

[ExLibrisMortis]

Maybe implement reverse buy-off, where they gain an additional LA after they get 9th level powers :p

LA post-9th-level powers/spells is a funny subject. On the one hand, you can pile on LA and remain relevant for a really long time (because you have 9ths anyway). On the other hand, you might as well scrap LA altogether (because all 9th-casters are more or less in the same ballpark anyway). At ECL 17+, the only levels that really matter are "full caster", "not full caster", and "epic caster".

[Celestia]

At LA +3, you trade two levels of psion manifesting for a few hit points, ability scores, PR that scales with level, and Mind Blast. Most of the abilities aren't that good to a pure psion, except for the PR, which is four points higher than the power resistance power can give you (barring the use of Overchannel or other ML boosters, of course), and Mind Blast, which has a long enough duration and big enough area that it's worth using (note that the DC is Charisma-based, which is not ideal for a psion, but you still get +6 Cha, so it's going to be a decently difficult save). Extract is just a fancy way to coup de grace someone, which is cool, but not hugely powerful.

A 12th-level psion with 25 Intelligence (18 base, +3 increases, +4 headband of intellect) will have 126 + 42 = 168 power points.
A psion 6/constructor 6 with the same Intelligence will have 106 + 38 = 144 power points.
A mind flayer psion 1 with 30 Intelligence (18 base, +8 racial, +4 headband of intellect) will have 88 + 50 = 138 power points.

So the illithid's manifesting is quite a bit worse than a straight psion's, having no sixth-level powers, 18% fewer power points and lower manifester level (total number of your highest-level power you can manifest is about the same, but your highest-level power is weaker). It is closer to a psion who's lost a manifester level to a nice PrC, though less able to get future PrC features (capstones, especially, insofar they're relevant).

I don't think I'd play an illithid for the power at LA +3. I'd rather just have a psion/PrC, with more power points, higher ML, and deeper into a relevant PrC. If I really wanted to play an illithid specifically, I'd probably be willing to take the hit at +3, though, treating it as an okay PrC. I can see why many people voted +3.

At LA +2, the illithid would be like a powerful PrC; you lose a manifester level, but you get some perks (small gain in bab, nice hp gain), good PR, and Mind blast. I'm fine with that, really. I'll go LA +2 for these.

These are some good points. I'm changing to +2.

[lord_khaine]

Its not just small perks you gain at LA +2. Its gamechanging abilities.
In that case you just lose a single manifester level. Something thats not nearly as important for a psion due to the argumentation mechanics.
In return it gets.

* 20-50% more Hp, depending on calculation. This is staggering, as HP is the most important resource in the game. Without them you cant do anything.

*Physical boosts of +8 total. Where the +4 dex is especially important, improving both Initiative, ranget to hit and ac.

*Natural armor of +3, totaling the ac bonus at +5. AC is often downplayed, but its still important, since its the way most monsters will attack you.

*Aberation type. Both giving it protection from a few different attacks, as well as opening up metamorphis use.

*Power resistance 25+class level. This is again extremely useful. At an assumed level 10, this means that anything but boss monsters can just about give up on using magic against the mind flayer.
Since an equal level opponent, like a sorcerer 10, will by default only penetrate SR around 25% of the time. Weaker things, like minions with evocation wands, monsters with spell like abilities,
or a support team of for example 4 level 8 sorceres (a level 12 encounter), will go from being a hazard to a nuiseance.
Of course, yes it is possible to use SR:No spells against the Mind Flayer. But as a Psion it has the ability to tailor its defence against those things.
Where a empowered fireball is a significant threat to a regular Psion that resources has to be allocated to defend from, then the Mind Flayer can instead invest in utility or more offence.

* +8 int, +6 to the other mental stats. Enough said about just how valuable the main manifester stat is on things like DC or PP ?

*Mind blast. Its an at will Save-or-Lose in a 60 foot cone. With a dc that scales on the stat you get +6 to. It can easily affect the entire battlefield if your party deploys for it.
It counts as a level 4 spell for DC. But powerwise that level isnt even close. For a comparison, Hold Monster (5) only affects a single target, not the entire battlefield.
And Hold Monster Mass is a level 9 spell that doesnt affect quite the same area.
If you invest a single feat you get to boost the dc by 2, and then you can spam a level 6, AOE, save or lose every, single, round.
How many other +1 La monsters have a at-will save or lose ability? Just how hard is it to get something like that as a normal PC?

*Darkvision, another trait thats super useful for lurking around, or spotting those that try to do the same.

*Telepathy 100. Another ability that on itself can be easy to underestiate. But it allows for coordinating the party to an extreme degree.
Or hold private conversations in public places about course of action, or to coordinate anwers for the authorities. Its perfect for both social games and dungeon crawling.
And then you add the feat mindsight, and it become bonkers. Since you can then spot anything with a mind in a 100 feet radius though walls.

[Caelestion]

Put like that, I'd laugh someone out the room if they suggested playing all that for just +1 LA.

[Blue Jay]

Its not just small perks you gain at LA +2. Its gamechanging abilities.
In that case you just lose a single manifester level. Something thats not nearly as important for a psion due to the argumentation mechanics.

Augmentation is limited by manifester level, so ML loss is pretty much exactly as important for a psion as CL loss is for a spellcaster.

That said, I'm still voting for LA +3.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, people say SR/PR is a double-edged sword, but that much is practically immunity, and that's without boosting it further with things like a Dazzix's Vest or Boost Spell Resistance.

[Celestia]

Okay, people say SR/PR is a double-edged sword, but that much is practically immunity, and that's without boosting it further with things like a Dazzix's Vest or Boost Spell Resistance.

Yep, immunity from life saving healing spells.