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  1. - Top - End - #151
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Aww, you ruined my joke using RAW.

    Fair enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    ...so as we can see, no internal consistency from WotC (unsurprising).

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Aww, you ruined my joke using RAW.
    It's a RAW deal but someone's got to do it.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    It's a RAW deal but someone's got to do it.
    You say it's 'RAW', but by the smell, I'd say 'ripe'!
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    On account of being on a brief holiday, there will be no updates for a short while. Expect relative normalcy to resume next week.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Crocodiles still consider themselves superior to cows. My point here is that it wouldn't be morally wrong to eat a being whom you don't even consider as an equal.
    So it wouldn't be immoral for an antebellum landowner to eat his slaves? I don't care what the perpetrator thinks is moral or immoral; people don't do something unless they think they're justified. But the existence those self-justifications doesn't matter, only their validity, and "These sapient people are inferior to me" is worse than weak.
    Also, nitpick, crocodiles don't consider themselves superior to cows. They don't consider anything "superior" to anything else in that sense, because they have neither the capacity to consider ranking things in that sense nor any reason to.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    GWG, you’re a cool person and I like what you have to say, but I fear that the road you’re on will lead to Modville.
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    So it wouldn't be immoral for an antebellum landowner to eat his slaves? I don't care what the perpetrator thinks is moral or immoral; people don't do something unless they think they're justified. But the existence those self-justifications doesn't matter, only their validity, and "These sapient people are inferior to me" is worse than weak.
    Also, nitpick, crocodiles don't consider themselves superior to cows. They don't consider anything "superior" to anything else in that sense, because they have neither the capacity to consider ranking things in that sense nor any reason to.
    Geez, no need to get so riled up.

    Crocodiles see cows as "food", and for me that's enough to see it as an inferior being. They also see humans as food, and a crocodile eating a human wouldn't be considered immoral, because it's just eating what it has to eat.

    Mindflayers can only survive on brains of lesser creatures that would die just a short while later anyways, so why would they care? They have to eat, that's all there is to it. Does it matter that they can communicate some more elaborate grunts? They don't even know the cubic root of pi! They're just smarter, balder, tastier monkeys.

    And I'm talking inter-species here. Any being who treats another being of their fellow race as food is probably not very good. Unless the species has that practice, of course, like some spiders.
    Last edited by MisterKaws; 2019-07-21 at 12:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I think the whole debate about Illithids are kinda silly.
    They are super, duper, evil. Especially so if you go by the Lord of Madness material.
    Why does it matter if one of their horrible deeds are more or less horrible.. ?
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I think the whole debate about Illithids are kinda silly.
    They are super, duper, evil. Especially so if you go by the Lord of Madness material.
    Why does it matter if one of their horrible deeds are more or less horrible.. ?
    I(and I assume many others) tend to ignore the lore contained in the 2006-2007 creature-focused books. Most of the time it goes diametrically opposite to the original lore, so it's easier to just not use it.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Examples please?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    Examples please?
    Lords of Madness tends to make them dumb Evil, but it's still not theven close to the worst. The entire Fiendish Codex(abyss version) makes demons sound more Lawful than Chaotic. The whole book is basically this.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Any specific examples from that book? I don't have it on me right now.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    That always bugged me about fc1. There is lot more hierarchy and fairly involved long term plotting and planning than I am comfortable attributing to most demons. Fc2 is much better in this regard.

    What is mind flayer original lore? I know they enslaved (created?) The gith, which split after the revolution where they blew up a star and mind flayer home world iirc. That's what I recall. Then the whole human from the future who time travel back to survive is from LoM iirc. Or should I check afros threads.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Geez, no need to get so riled up.
    Moral debates do that.

    Crocodiles see cows as "food", and for me that's enough to see it as an inferior being. They also see humans as food, and a crocodile eating a human wouldn't be considered immoral, because it's just eating what it has to eat.
    Yeah, bringing animals (which aren't moral actors) into this was kinda dumb. I was just trying to think of a creature stupider than a cow which would eat it; maybe I should have said that it's as immoral for a human to eat a mind flayer as it is for a mind flayer to eat a mind flayer? Or just moved the discussion away from the specific act of eating a sapient being?

    Mindflayers can only survive on brains of lesser creatures that would die just a short while later anyways, so why would they care?
    I never said they would care. I said it wasn't moral. This is the entire point my half of this discussion has been centered around. Why have you been ignoring this?

    And I'm talking inter-species here. Any being who treats another being of their fellow race as food is probably not very good. Unless the species has that practice, of course, like some spiders.
    1. Why did you write an out that applies to basically every example?
    2. Again, why are you asserting that the identity of a moral agent is a critical factor in determining the morality of an action? My entire premise and point has been that it does not. Stop saying it matters without backing that up.
    (Note that "identity" is distinct from "circumstance". I'm not saying that a starving man stealing bread is as bad as a man stealing bread for no reason; I'm saying that a starving man stealing bread is as bad as a starving, I dunno, goblin or unicorn stealing bread.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    What is mind flayer original lore? I know they enslaved (created?) The gith, which split after the revolution where they blew up a star and mind flayer home world iirc. That's what I recall. Then the whole human from the future who time travel back to survive is from LoM iirc. Or should I check afros threads.
    I'm not aware of any two sources from across all editions of D&D which give compatible accounts of mind flayer origins.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    The earliest treatment of Mind Flayer background I'm aware of is The Ecology of the Mind Flayer, back in Dragon 78. Their origin is (deliberately?) left a bit ambiguous there.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    The illithids were presented as ingeniously evil in 1998's The Illithiad, where an explicitly unclear origin story is presented. One suggestion is that they were time-travellers from the edge of time who strayed "Outside" (perhaps the Far Realm) and were irretrievably altered by their experiences. Another is that they suddenly arrived in the unimaginably distant past, but from where (or when) is not stated.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Lords of Madness tends to make them dumb Evil, but it's still not theven close to the worst.
    I disagree.
    It does not make them dumb evil.
    It does makes them actually inhuman and alien.
    Instead of bad people with an octopus face.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    We now return to our previously scheduled LA assignment thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    We now return to our previously scheduled LA assignment thread.
    Well, we do have time to kill until Inevitability is back from holiday...

  20. - Top - End - #170
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Well, we do have time to kill until Inevitability is back from holiday...
    Plus, if we keep cluttering up this thread with tangential garbage posts, we can finish up and lock this thread and its non-functional pun title that totally does not work that much faster.

  21. - Top - End - #171
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    The pun title is great, and you are being very rude to poor Inevitability, who works very hard to get these ratings out and categorize them in the archive. I see no reason for you to be this abusive to him.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    The pun title is great, and you are being very rude to poor Inevitability, who works very hard to get these ratings out and categorize them in the archive. I see no reason for you to be this abusive to him.
    We voted on the thread title, then the majority vote was discarded in favor of one chosen by him. And I stand by the pun not working phonetically.

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I don't recall a formal vote being called. We expressed our preferences and that was that.

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    As long as I wanted that title and much as I would like to lead something, I don't really see a need for an insurrection over this season's chosen pun. The pun is less important than the content of the thread. The poetry of my stupid pun spoke of relevance to the subject. To take that title while betraying its intent is a blasphemy toward board game-related humor.

    Not to mention, the title kind of meta-wins because it too is stifled like eye-bolas trying to cast a spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    But as we've agreed, sometimes the real power was the friends we made along the way, including the DM. I wish I could go on more articulate rants about how I'm grateful for DMs putting in the effort on a hard job even when it isn't perfect.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Moral debates do that.


    Yeah, bringing animals (which aren't moral actors) into this was kinda dumb. I was just trying to think of a creature stupider than a cow which would eat it; maybe I should have said that it's as immoral for a human to eat a mind flayer as it is for a mind flayer to eat a mind flayer? Or just moved the discussion away from the specific act of eating a sapient being?


    I never said they would care. I said it wasn't moral. This is the entire point my half of this discussion has been centered around. Why have you been ignoring this?


    1. Why did you write an out that applies to basically every example?
    2. Again, why are you asserting that the identity of a moral agent is a critical factor in determining the morality of an action? My entire premise and point has been that it does not. Stop saying it matters without backing that up.
    (Note that "identity" is distinct from "circumstance". I'm not saying that a starving man stealing bread is as bad as a man stealing bread for no reason; I'm saying that a starving man stealing bread is as bad as a starving, I dunno, goblin or unicorn stealing bread.)



    I'm not aware of any two sources from across all editions of D&D which give compatible accounts of mind flayer origins.
    I dont want to get much into this discussion you guys were having but I just wanted to point out a reminder, that theres not just "Moral" and "Immoral" theres also "Amoral". Something "good" is "moral". Something "bad" is "immoral". Something neutral, or unbound by morals is "amoral".

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Remuko View Post
    I dont want to get much into this discussion you guys were having but I just wanted to point out a reminder, that theres not just "Moral" and "Immoral" theres also "Amoral". Something "good" is "moral". Something "bad" is "immoral". Something neutral, or unbound by morals is "amoral".
    And that's my whole point. I'll just skip the arguing.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    Phrenic


    Miscellaneous Psionic Creatures, named after... one fairly unremarkable nerve in the human body?

    Anyway, the phrenic template is a rare example of WotC actually judging a LA well. Its current rating of +2 is widely accepted as fairly balanced, and while it's by no means a top-tier pick it is still something a fair number of characters can benefit from.

    The benefits are simple but elegant: power resistance, some bonuses to mental stats, a free power point, and a long list of HD-based PLAs, in a similar fashion to Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend. The powers are pretty useful, including save-or-loses, solid utility, and buffs.

    The current rating of +2 is more than reasonable, and will not be changed.
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  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    I am not sure anyone would disagree on phrenic being +2. Auto-augmenting psionic power, the ability to gain focus, and a bonus to all mental stats with no penalties. It's pretty much perfect for anyone who, for one reason or another, has +2 LA to fling around.

  29. - Top - End - #179
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    LA +2 should easily suffice. The stat bonuses are nice, but not over the top.

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

    LA +2 for Phrenic. The net abilities are low for +2 but too much for +1. The abilities are acceptably strong, enough to offset the net abilities, and the other bonuses together slot this comfortably into LA +2, if in the lower half.

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