The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[Efrate]

Phrenic one (only?) La wotc got right. +2.

[Thurbane]

Again, no expert on psionics, but Phrenic is quite widely touted as one of the very few LA +2 (as written) templates that people consider to be somewhat worthwhile.

I'm agreeing with LA +2.

[MisterKaws]

Wouldn't see why anyone would disagree on this one. It's quite a good template for mostly any character. Makes any fighter a sort-of gish too, which is good.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wouldn't see why anyone would disagree on this one. It's quite a good template for mostly any character. Makes any fighter a sort-of gish too, which is good.

The ability to gain psionic focus is useful for anyone using Diamond Mind and all three martial adepts use mental stats. It is interesting to think just how many classes appreciate "take 15" on a concentration check.

[MisterKaws]

The ability to gain psionic focus is useful for anyone using Diamond Mind and all three martial adepts use mental stats. It is interesting to think just how many classes appreciate "take 15" on a concentration check.

which is decent, but not game-breaking. You could certainly do better with some Strength-focused race and nightmare blades to stack multipliers.

Also Psi-Focus is a feat or a class level away anyway. Or just an LA+0 race.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Phrenic is a template. You can have that Str boosting race alongside Phrenic's pile of goodness and even without LA buff you are a feat ahead of someone who took Wild Talent (or Hidden if allowed). At least at 20.

[MisterKaws]

Phrenic is a template. You can have that Str boosting race alongside Phrenic's pile of goodness and even without LA buff you are a feat ahead of someone who took Wild Talent (or Hidden if allowed). At least at 20.

But still behind someone who went Half-Ogre Water Orc with a dip into PsiWar.

[Zaq]

At least it scales. LA +2 is a very big cost, but the fact that it scales makes all the difference. I think I’m more or less okay with +2. However, I will note that I still wouldn’t play it at +2. I merely recognize that it’s probably a bit too strong for +1.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Plus, if we keep cluttering up this thread with tangential garbage posts, we can finish up and lock this thread and its non-functional pun title that totally does not work that much faster.

I guess you're one of today's 10,000 people to learn about La La Land.

I dont want to get much into this discussion you guys were having but I just wanted to point out a reminder, that theres not just "Moral" and "Immoral" theres also "Amoral". Something "good" is "moral". Something "bad" is "immoral". Something neutral, or unbound by morals is "amoral".

Not sure what your point is. A mind flayer is intelligent enough to count as a moral actor.

[lord_khaine]

At least it scales. LA +2 is a very big cost, but the fact that it scales makes all the difference. I think I’m more or less okay with +2. However, I will note that I still wouldn’t play it at +2. I merely recognize that it’s probably a bit too strong for +1.

It is kinda in a funny place?
I think i would just about always take it at +1.
But im not generally certain i would take it at +2.
Its just about a perfect example of a +1½

[Dimers]

Sure, LA +2 for phrenic template.

One oddity, though -- it can't be applied to creatures that are already psionic. Seems like an odd exclusion.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sure, LA +2 for phrenic template.

One oddity, though -- it can't be applied to creatures that are already psionic. Seems like an odd exclusion.

As odd as not being allowed to apply the half-celestial template to angels. Phrenic creatures are creatures that aren't normally psionic, but who are.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Given the auto-augment of the powers it is the single best "grants level-based pseudo-casting" template, IMO. Handily beats Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend, and I'd say it's solidly above Half-Fey too.

Is there any template that straight up grants casting? I can't recall any.

Hell, the sheer amount of PP on a high-HD creature due the auto-augment might very well be equal or above what a Psion of equal level can bring to bear. Plenty of 3/day ones that augment very well.

I think I'd take it on most of any mid level martial I'd build, if I could.

Still agree with +2, but I'm surprised by the sort of unenthusiastic response to Phrenic.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Is there any template that straight up grants casting? I can't recall any.

Symbiotic Creature. Spells are a Special Attack, and therefore transferred to the host if the guest was a caster.

EDIT: Not even joking, that's actually how it works. Every time I try to use that template I discover something else broken about it.

[MisterKaws]

Not sure what your point is. A mind flayer is intelligent enough to count as a moral actor.

The point is that it's intelligent enough to realize we'll all die eventually and have no f***s left to give to whoever is next on the menu.

[javcs]

Given the auto-augment of the powers it is the single best "grants level-based pseudo-casting" template, IMO. Handily beats Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend, and I'd say it's solidly above Half-Fey too.

Is there any template that straight up grants casting? I can't recall any.

The fact that the powers you get augment as you level up isn't that big a thing.

They're not going to do much more than slightly tilt the scales in your direction in one or two fights a day, at best.

--

Templates that grant actual casting? ... I know that there's some third party templates that do that ...
There's one in Quintessential Elf ... gives you sorcerer casting, plus I think some druid list access.
It's doubtless that there's other templates in other third party stuff.

As far as WotC stuff ...
Does that Kobold-only ritual count? It gives you a level of sorcerer casting.
I think there's something in the Faerun stuff ... IIRC something to do with Mystra. Possibly one or two others.
I think that there might be some racial specific stuff in Eberron, probably for either dragons or giants.

...

Did WotC do the (World of) Warcraft books? Pretty sure that they had something that gave spellcasting or the next best thing. IIRC the Eternal template gave you a mess of SLAs up front plus additional SLAs every X HD that you had a free hand in choosing.


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Phrenic is on the weak end of +2, IMO.

It's clearly a bit too much for a +1, but it is oriented towards benefiting caster/manifester types the most, yet two full casting/manifesting levels are a lot to give up - you're a full spell/power level behind. And you aren't really getting all that much out of it in the grand scheme of things.

Honestly, dual stat casters/manifesters get the most benefit, but then you're either even further behind because of the multiclassing, or you're in a casting/manifesting class that is at best T2 or more likely worse. There are three dual stat base caster classes I can think of offhand - Favored Soul(T2), Shadowcaster(T5?), and Savant (T4?).

--

I half think the +SLA templates would be better if they gave you those the spells for those SLAs as bonus spells known if you're a caster.

[Caelestion]

Still agree with +2, but I'm surprised by the sort of unenthusiastic response to Phrenic.

When Inevitable says that the LA will not changed, why bother discussing it extensively?

[OgresAreCute]

Monster of Legend gives 5th level cleric casting, among other things. It's printed in MM2 (go figure). There are also a bunch of simple class templates in PF that give limited casting if you use the ones based on casters.

Also, didn't see this mentioned: where does it say mind flayers have astral projection? I don't see it in the MM, and didn't see it in the errata either.

[javcs]

Monster of Legend gives 5th level cleric casting, among other things. It's printed in MM2 (go figure). There are also a bunch of simple class templates in PF that give limited casting if you use the ones based on casters.

Also, didn't see this mentioned: where does it say mind flayers have astral projection? I don't see it in the MM, and didn't see it in the errata either.

They had Astral Projection as an At Will SLA in 3.0. They lost it at some point and didn't have it anymore in the 3.5 MM1.

[MisterKaws]

They had Astral Projection as an At Will SLA in 3.0. They lost it at some point and didn't have it anymore in the 3.5 MM1.

They have it in Savage Species, which is always a problem with a the monsters that had troublesome abilities removed in 3.5. Succubus being the other major offender.

[GreatWyrmGold]

{Scrubbed}

[javcs]

They have it in Savage Species, which is always a problem with a the monsters that had troublesome abilities removed in 3.5. Succubus being the other major offender.

Savage Species is 3.0.

What did the succubus lose that was so troublesome?

[Elkad]

But still behind someone who went Half-Ogre Water Orc with a dip into PsiWar.

A psiwar dip doesn't get you teleport, fission, dominate, PR (and SR with transparency) at level+10 and a bunch of other goodies.

Sure, you'll be better at basic beatsticking. Phrenic picks up a bunch of utility.

Oh, and +2 is fine.

[danielxcutter]

...wait, if Duergar Expansion doesn't auto-scale, why would Phrenic? And for that matter, what about Dromite rays?

Edit: either way, though, those are some sweet PLAs.

[liquidformat]

...wait, if Duergar Expansion doesn't auto-scale, why would Phrenic? And for that matter, what about Dromite rays?

Edit: either way, though, those are some sweet PLAs.

I think we have had 3 or 4 arguments now on how PLAs scale, there is language here that is ambiguous enough plus the fact that some powers are prescaled and others aren't that makes it ambiguous how they should work. Personally I am of the opinion that the only thing that scales on a power is DCs and damage nothing else. If everything can be scaled however you like then what is the point of the prescaled powers with an '*' and wording saying: 'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

During those arguments no one was able to refute this nor explain it, from my understanding a lot of people just want to ignore RAW since it makes PLAs less appealing...

[OgresAreCute]

They had Astral Projection as an At Will SLA in 3.0. They lost it at some point and didn't have it anymore in the 3.5 MM1.

In that case I'd say it's a little excessive to give them an asterisk for an ability they don't have anymore.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I think we have had 3 or 4 arguments now on how PLAs scale, there is language here that is ambiguous enough plus the fact that some powers are prescaled and others aren't that makes it ambiguous how they should work. Personally I am of the opinion that the only thing that scales on a power is DCs and damage nothing else. If everything can be scaled however you like then what is the point of the prescaled powers with an '*' and wording saying: 'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

During those arguments no one was able to refute this nor explain it, from my understanding a lot of people just want to ignore RAW since it makes PLAs less appealing...

Let me see if I understand your confusion. You don't understand why, if PLAs got free augmentation, the PLA lists would usually include the effects of that augmentation right there where the DM can easily see it? Is that about right?

[liquidformat]

Let me see if I understand your confusion. You don't understand why, if PLAs got free augmentation, the PLA lists would usually include the effects of that augmentation right there where the DM can easily see it? Is that about right?

Let me clear up your confusion with bolded text of what I just posted: 'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

That seems pretty clear RAW right there. Powers that you can't augment (beyond aforementioned DC and damage) or that manifest at minimum level have no special notation. That seems like pretty clear RAW PLAs can only be augmented for DC and damage unless they have an '*' in which case the text explains how they will be augmented further...

[DeTess]

Let me clear up your confusion with bolded text of what I just posted: 'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

That seems pretty clear RAW right there. Powers that you can't augment (beyond aforementioned DC and damage) or that manifest at minimum level have no special notation. That seems like pretty clear RAW PLAs can only be augmented for DC and damage unless they have an '*' in which case the text explains how they will be augmented further...

This seems to assume that 'augmentations that increase the DC and/or damage' and 'augmentations that do other stuff' are fundamentally different things in psionics though. Or am I wrong here?

Edit: okay, I've taken an actual look at the link. I think there is an argument to be made for powers not being augmentable, but its not the one you seem to be making. The full relevant bit from the SRD is:

Each of a creature’s psi-like abilities has a manifester level. Each ability that allows a saving throw also gives a save DC in parentheses following the power name.

Powers that have increased effects due to augmentation include information about the effect. An asterisk indicates that the power has already been augmented by the creature’s innate ability.

Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations. Resolve the effect of manifesting the power without augmentation at the creature’s given manifester level.

The argument I could see is that any power not indicates by an asterisk is automatically manifest ed at their normal minimum level, and therefore do not gain any augmentations. However, if a PLA can be augmented, then there is no fundamental difference between augmentations that increase damage or that do anything else, such as increase duration or number of targets, right?

I'll be the first to admit I'm not expert on psionics, but I see no indication in the text you quoted that powers without an asterisk could only be augmented in some ways, but not in others.

[lord_khaine]

Is it time for another round of this?

During those arguments no one was able to refute this nor explain it, from my understanding a lot of people just want to ignore RAW since it makes PLAs less appealing...

And from my point of view you just want to ignore RAW because it makes PLAs more appealing..

Let me clear up your confusion with bolded text of what I just posted: 'Powers that can’t be augmented, or that are manifested at their normal minimum level, do not contain any special notations.'

That seems pretty clear RAW right there. Powers that you can't augment (beyond aforementioned DC and damage) or that manifest at minimum level have no special notation. That seems like pretty clear RAW PLAs can only be augmented for DC and damage unless they have an '*' in which case the text explains how they will be augmented further...

It was likely not commented on last time, because i dont see the point of this point.
We have explicit text telling us that "When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC."

So yes? Of course those powers without argumentation options, or who are manifested at their base level wont include a helpfull notation to remind the DM that this ability hits for more than the at times low base damage of said power.
Your basing the entirety of your case on Wizards for a change try to be helpful and make things easy for the DM.