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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DwarvenWarCorgi
    Certainly not as high powered as some of these suggestions, and technically 3.0, MotW has a 24hr 200xp ritual to advance an animal companion 1hd as an animal. The best reason to do this is the extra hd can bump animals up a size, unlike the bonus hd from animal companion.



    That's very interesting. I was completely unaware of that. Thank you.
    No prob. Went and checked, its MotW pg37

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Great spell suggestions. Have I mentioned I love the Spell Compendium Book?
    Though I think a bunch of level 3 slots (Greater Magic Fang) all day is a far smaller cost than a single 4th level slot and an action every fight (Superior Magic Fang). You've got enough higher level slots that you can make do with fewer 3rd level ones. Lesser Rod of Chain Spell works but only if you first Ocular Spell or Reach Spell GMF as it's range touch.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2019-07-10 at 07:12 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Though I think a bunch of level 3 slots (Greater Magic Fang) all day is a far smaller cost than a single 4th level slot and an action every fight (Superior Magic Fang). You've got enough higher level slots that you can make do with fewer 3rd level ones. Lesser Rod of Chain Spell works but only if you first Ocular Spell or Reach Spell GMF as it's range touch.
    Depends how many natural weapons we're talking about, how many fights you get into per day on average, and how often you get into fights without time to prepare first. But you're right that often GMF is going to be the better choice.

    Good idea with the Lesser Rod of Chain Spell. If that's not an option and the number of natural weapons in question is not ridiculously high, for a little more gold you could get a couple of Pearls of Power if you don't want to use up too many of your 3rd-level spell slots.
    Last edited by Biggus; 2019-07-10 at 08:28 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Though I think a bunch of level 3 slots (Greater Magic Fang) all day is a far smaller cost than a single 4th level slot and an action every fight (Superior Magic Fang). You've got enough higher level slots that you can make do with fewer 3rd level ones. Lesser Rod of Chain Spell works but only if you first Ocular Spell or Reach Spell GMF as it's range touch.
    For the record, Magic Fang is "range: touch"; Greater Magic Fang is "range: close", and so is a viable target for Chain Spell or LRoCS.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    See now youre just reminding me of a problem.

    Everyone needs +1-5 weapons for the bonuses but especially because they can negate mos kinds of Damage Reduction.

    Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, and all the Magic Fang spells are emergency options if you have a Killer DM that withholds treasure.

    For Animal Companions how do you give them something as simple as a +1 Weapon? Martial Weapon Proficiency and have an Octopus with 8 Scimitars?

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    i am confused why you think your companion needs to always be effective in every combat. lots of class features are only applicable sometimes even with extra effort.

    there is no problem. use the rest of your class features when the companion cant tow the line or devote more resources into the companion.
    Last edited by DdarkED; 2019-07-10 at 03:36 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    See now youre just reminding me of a problem.

    Everyone needs +1-5 weapons for the bonuses but especially because they can negate mos kinds of Damage Reduction.

    Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, and all the Magic Fang spells are emergency options if you have a Killer DM that withholds treasure.

    For Animal Companions how do you give them something as simple as a +1 Weapon? Martial Weapon Proficiency and have an Octopus with 8 Scimitars?
    Most ACs have a neck slot (see Thurbane's link above.) Put AoMF or NoNA on it; you can fluff it as a collar if that helps the visual.

    You actually want to do this anyway, because a neck slot can also hold a natural armor bonus (use the MiC rules for "common item slot effects" to put both on the same item.)
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rijan_Sai View Post
    For the record, Magic Fang is "range: touch"; Greater Magic Fang is "range: close", and so is a viable target for Chain Spell or LRoCS.
    Just looked up the wording of Chain Spell, and it occurs to me that being able to use it to affect the same creature multiple times depends on the interpretation of the word 'target'. As far as I know, target is usually used to mean 'a creature or object' and while I don't know of anything which specifically excludes different parts of the same creature counting as separate targets, you might have difficulty convincing some DMs that the "Each arc affects one secondary target chosen by you...none of which can be affected more than once" provision of Chain Spell doesn't prevent this use.
    Last edited by Biggus; 2019-07-10 at 06:23 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    or concentrate on magic that increases size, and have him power through damage reduction with brute force.

    Hmm... an animal companion with share spells could benefit from your "bite of..." spells, couldn't it?

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Leap into animal is the one you want to share. Just keep some elephants around

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    You could take elemental companion ACF and equip it with normal tools. It is intelligent enough to use them.
    Alternatively you could chain Polymorph Any Object your companion into a Pit Fiend.
    Or you could use companion as crafting aid. Instead of getting magic crafting feats yourself which are too many to choose, you could load feat on your companion. And when you need another crafter feat you could resign old companion and conscript new.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    There's an Eberron feat, Aerenal Beastmaster, that allows Elf Druids to take a Baboon companion.

    Baboons are medium, and humanoid enough (IMHO) to use most gear without any issues.

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    I made a thread about this once upon a time: [3.5] Baboon Companion/Familiar

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    *facepalm* Ok I didnt notice it because people use acronyms rather than saying the full name.
    "Amulet of Mighty Fists" there, said it.

    Its a bit tricky because all GMs are Killer GMs, so being dependent on finding a very specific item they probably wont allow is very burdensome.

    Oh and you need 2 because Druid or Wild Ranger.

    What about Improved Unarmed Strike? makes natural Attacks Secondary weapons, but does give bonus attacks for BAB. More useful for Animal Companions with few attacks, like MOST of them.

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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    What about Improved Unarmed Strike? makes natural Attacks Secondary weapons, but does give bonus attacks for BAB. More useful for Animal Companions with few attacks, like MOST of them.
    Only really worth it for something with a single attack, and even then the drop in damage (1d4 at large) probably isn't worth getting the extra attack.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Its a bit tricky because all GMs are Killer GMs, so being dependent on finding a very specific item they probably wont allow is very burdensome.
    Uh, what? It's a core item - sounds like your GMs are a bit on the parsimonious side.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  16. - Top - End - #46
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Does a GM EVER give you the item you need?

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Does a GM EVER give you the item you need?
    *backs away slowly*
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Does a GM EVER give you the item you need?
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    *backs away slowly*
    I'll bite: Yes. Often, especially in D&D. I've had DMs allow random drops to be particularly fitting, had DMs who contrived to give the party what they wanted, had DMs who may not have gone full "magic mart," but did allow hunting for specific items, and even worked with DMs to arrange for particular items to happen to be "found." As a DM, I usually love to give items that I think the party will find useful. I usually roll randomly, but I definitely tweak things to be "neat" for the PCs rather than bland or boring "vendor trash" where I can. Even if that only means tying them into some hint at lore about the things they just beat up.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    As DM I am amenable to receiving a wishlist and working to put some SOME! of them in.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    When you're an 18th-level Druid, you can have a T-rex with 20 hit dice. Your T-rex takes the leadership feat, and you boost its Charisma until it can manage an 18th-level cohort. That cohort is also a druid with a T-rex. And that T-tex also has the leadership feat...
    If this actually works by RAW, it may be the single coolest thing I have ever seen in D&D (as well as a very solid reason to ban Leadership); may I sig this?

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    If this actually works by RAW, it may be the single coolest thing I have ever seen in D&D (as well as a very solid reason to ban Leadership); may I sig this?
    You honestly don't need to ban leadership, just forbid cohorts, animal companions, and other "NPCs that belong to a PC" from taking it.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    In 3.x, DMs are expected to provide players with a set of magical bonuses/items commonly called the "Big Six" - D&D's math just doesn't work (particularly for low-tier martial classes) otherwise. For a character that relies on natural attacks (or has a class feature that does), this means that the very first entry of the Big Six - magic weapons - doesn't work without something like the AoMF. So I think expecting that item to be made available for your class in the vast majority of campaigns is perfectly reasonable. And that's before we get into the fact that nearly every class with an animal companion can simply craft one.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    You honestly don't need to ban leadership, just forbid cohorts, animal companions, and other "NPCs that belong to a PC" from taking it.
    Honestly, myself and every DM I've ever played with all ban Leadership just because it's a lot of spotlight and action time for one player at the table (we usually have had to set hard limits at 6 or so players). Bad enough that Animal Companions already cut into this.

    I've also never wanted to deal with all the other followers besides the cohort that come with it.

    But I do agree that Leadership should only ever be for the PC themself, if it is allowed at all.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    Honestly, myself and every DM I've ever played with all ban Leadership just because it's a lot of spotlight and action time for one player at the table (we usually have had to set hard limits at 6 or so players). Bad enough that Animal Companions already cut into this.

    I've also never wanted to deal with all the other followers besides the cohort that come with it.

    But I do agree that Leadership should only ever be for the PC themself, if it is allowed at all.
    It does depend on the size of the group, with small groups (3 or fewer players) it can help to fill in gaps in the party roles. I'm currently running a solo campaign for my partner and she took Leadership primarily so she has more to do in battles against multiple opponents.

    Agreed about the cohorts not having cohorts thing though. That way madness lies, especially at very high levels.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Looking over my T-rex/druid loop more closely, it does have an issue. Leadership isn't just capped at your level -2. It's also capped at 17. So you can't actually have an 18th-level cohort, even at 20th level.

    You could still make it work though, using that feat that offsets the effective druid level cost of higher-level animal companions. Then the 17th-level druid cohorts could still manage to have 20-HD T-rexes.

    Or, I guess, the T-rexes could have that feat that lets them have a cohort up to one level lower than them. Then the basic, 18-HD ones can still pull off 17th-level cohorts.

    The problem isn't unique to Leadership though. A 19-HD T-rex with the Wild Cohort feat can get a 19-HD T-rex as his lackey. And then it's T-rexes all the way down.

    Anyway, yes MultitudeMan, you can sig the quote if you want. Just know that there are issues with the plan as presented there.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    The problem isn't unique to Leadership though. A 19-HD T-rex with the Wild Cohort feat can get a 19-HD T-rex as his lackey. And then it's T-rexes all the way down.
    OK, well, I don't want to get into RAW arguments over my sig the whole time, so perhaps if I sig this one instead? I feel you deserve some sort of recognition!
    Last edited by MultitudeMan; 2019-07-12 at 11:28 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    It occurs to me that with the correct version of the Graft Flesh feat one can add aftermarket hands to their animal companion.
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    Honestly, myself and every DM I've ever played with all ban Leadership just because it's a lot of spotlight and action time for one player at the table (we usually have had to set hard limits at 6 or so players). Bad enough that Animal Companions already cut into this.

    I've also never wanted to deal with all the other followers besides the cohort that come with it.

    But I do agree that Leadership should only ever be for the PC themself, if it is allowed at all.
    In the group I usually play in, we have a clear expectation that, no matter how complex your character is, you should be able to handle him in a reasonable amount of time, or play something simpler. Just because you're a Druid who has turned into a bear, have a bear animal companion and have summoned 1d4 bears in this combat, you shouldn't take 3-4 times longer than the Wizard's or Cleric's turn. As a result, I'm usually the only one who plays summoner and minionmancers :)

    Regarding Leadership, we usually go with the following guidelines:
    - no more than 1 Leadership per party
    - if the group can't unanimously agree who the guy with Leadership is, nobody will take it

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Okay, so there is an official name to the items Im looking for "The Big Six", thanks Psyren. That is the #3 problem I brought up with Companions. I just forgot about of Amulet of Mighty Fists. Yeah its harder to get that than say someone with Simple or Martial Weapons. Natural/Unarmed characters have that very specific item requirement. Other characters have a variety of options.
    -----------------------
    Leadership is controversial, but any time people talk about it I wander back to First and Second edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons where Player Characters had their own growing Entourages as they leveled up. I remember that Levels granted Titles that actually meant something, like having strongholds and small armies of followers. If anything Leadership is an "optional" variant of something older edition characters got automatically.

    I would avoid using it for combat cohorts because they have a level penalty, would require a lot of equipment, and if they die you take a PERMANENT penalty. Id rather use it to have a Crafting character.

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    Planetar

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    Default Re: How to keep Animal Companions from falling behind PCs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Does a GM EVER give you the item you need?
    All the time, in my current campaign he even gave us an Artificer NPC to churn items out. He doesn't really care what we grab so long as we stay close to WBL and it isn't a gamebreaking item. I do similar when I DM on the off days, so our DM gets a break. Hell I make custom magic items I find interesting in design just to toss to the players. My favorite to date was a Sunfire Cape esque item that did fire damage to things in an area around the wearer. based it on the league of legends item. Player had a grapple based martial and he loved it. The idea is to have players have fun. So no offense, but from the way you're talking it sounds like your GMs are ... um ****?
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