EK build advice from experience

[alexfitzrose]

I know there are lots of guides and build threads for eldritch knights already but I've yet to see one that really answers my only remaining question - should I dump INT or invest in it (and how much)?

I'll start with my character concept so anyone who has experience with EKs can help me in that specific way. My PC is in the mold of the classic hero's journey archetype (think Arthur in Sword in the Stone, or Luke on Tatooine, but y'know a few adventures older) so I'm going human (variant, for magic initiate) and using the fighter chassis to stay useful in combat, eldritch knight for survivability, and mixing in utility magic (which could be considered mostly roleplaying fluff like prestidigitation which I use as a way into this magical setting but also eventually ritual caster for Find Familiar, etc.). This is my Adventurer's League PC, so all those limitations apply but really I only own the PHB and I enjoy a streamlined 'vanilla' build that lets me put effort into RP and the experience of playing well with others (I prefer to be in support roles even if my character is modeled after the main hero, if that makes sense).

Longsword for attacks, 2-handed when I have slots for casting shield and with a shield equipped when I'm out of slots. Here's where it gets trickier to decide: I would like to use the standard array to begin and end up with a cascade of attributes - 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 - which I feel keeps me honest by preventing min/max thinking but also gives me another way to keep my character's strengths and weaknesses clear. The 18 goes into STR to reflect not just brawn but martial training (since I will wait until I get to level 8 to increase it from 16 probably) but that is the only thing I'm sure about.

I feel like I have 2 options:

1) Put the next highest score in INT so that my spells with saves or rolls are actually rather effective (especially since I want to raise it from 14 to 16 around the level I get Eldritch Strike), then leave CON at 14 since I have that save (bolstered by Warcaster at 4 or 6) and need HP to keep me in a fight. (For what it's worth, I'd put the 8 in WIS to reflect a character that grew up reading story after story about heroes and learning magic through hard study but is not nearly as street smart and probably a little gullible)

2) Put the 8 into INT and leave it there for good (raise CON to 16, 14 WIS more like an optimized fighter build). This doesn't feel like 'dumping' the stat because it's easy to imagine this character learning his magic from friends and peers along the way, less formally but still working hard to get it down, he just doesn't have the formal training and education of a high INT. I know I could choose non-save spells and get along nicely but I do want to ask anyone who has played this way if Eldritch Strike still lands the occasional Hold Person or Fireball? Or can Dispel Magic and Counterspell be used at all to at least force a role that maybe sometimes works (or just forget it, at the levels I get to use them will casters just be too powerful for me to push back)? How about debuffs like Reduce, Darkness, Silence - will my save be too low to make them stick? All those things are ones that I would want to use and seem not only helpful but very on brand for my character.

I guess there is a middle road where I put 12 into INT (I would probably dump CHA, reflecting his plucky attitude more than strong drive to be the hero) and pick and choose my spots. The question here is have I simply chosen a path that makes me not as effective as I could be but also wanting to keep trying to use a big part of my subclass?

Again, this is less for white room optimization (see my insistence on using that array) and more for players with experience describing what they have seen or strategies they use with either a high(-ish) INT or a negative mod INT against those higher level foes when it will matter most (into tier 2 and hopefully 3 after a while). Any and all advice is welcome food for thought.

Thanks for taking the time to read all this!

[Griswold]

I'd recommend the dump strategy, or putting a 10 in Intelligence.

Most of the best EK knight spells are abjuration, and don't require a save: Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor.

The evocation spells are lackluster when you get them, even if you had a 20 in Int. A 3rd level Fireball just isn't going to cut it at 13th level, unless you're fighting a bunch of very weak enemies. And if you are, then them making the save shouldn't matter much.

For the precious few spells you get which aren't abjuration or evocation, you're still best off taking no-save spells like Find Familiar, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Haste. The only spell with a saving throw I'd consider would be Hold Person, and you can get that on a wand with a DC of 17 (and casting that will still activate War Magic).

Really, the only reason to invest in Int is so you can be more effective when using the 7th level War Magic ability to make your cantrips better. And you can avoid that by taking Booming Blade, which ignores your Int ability modified. And even that ability will suck once you get to 11th level, because 3 attacks is almost always better than 1 attack plus a cantrip.

[LudicSavant]

It's not uncommon for optimized EK builds to have a rather low Int and take spells that don't have saves / spell attack rolls. Many of the best spells for EKs don't rely on Intelligence at all. Stuff like Shield, Shadow Blade, Booming Blade, etc.

If you want to talk about tier 3-4, I typically multiclass out of EK by 12 and my mental stat will be based on what class I'm going into. When it was War Wizard, I invested in Int. When it was Death Cleric / Gloom Stalker, I invested in Wisdom instead. Both ways worked great.

Also, there's always a chance you'll be able to find an Uncommon "Headband of Intellect" which replaces your Int anyways.

[Fable Wright]

My Eldritch Knight has a 16 Int, and I use it all the time... for skill checks.

No one else in the party put anything into int, and so far, that's all it has been good for. And I enjoy knowledge checks, and making Investigation rolls! Eldritch Strike is not something that has often come up—I don't use attack spells much at all. My Sharpshooter attacks tend to take out trash, and 4-6 attacks with advantage and sharpshooter takes out... basically anything?

For your character concept, go for the 8 Int/14 Cha. I'd also recommend considering a Hexblade dip after level 5—pacting to a holy weapon, like Excalibur or Luke's Lightsaber, rather than shadowfell weirdness thing. This does a couple things for you.

1. Three slots, total, is miserable until you finally get to level 7. Maybe my group is just way slower than an AL group, but it has taken forever to get levels 6, 7, and 8. The short rest recharge just about doubles your slots on an 8 encounter day.
2. It opens up two excellent spells known—Hex and Expeditious Retreat. You can finally have concentration spells! And extra (utility) cantrips!
3. Hexblade's curse for the nova round. You grip your sword in both hands—for honor, for your friends, for your country—you shall defeat your foe on this day.

[ImproperJustice]

I dunno, I kept my INT high along with my STR and just didn’t invest too heavily in feats, and enjoyed an EK that could hit stuff a long way away with spell sniper and still land a good Blindness or Hold Person with reasonable effectiveness.
To each their own :)

[alexfitzrose]

The evocation spells are lackluster when you get them, even if you had a 20 in Int...
For the precious few spells you get which aren't abjuration or evocation, you're still best off taking no-save spells like Find Familiar, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Haste.

Thanks, this is the kind of insight I was hoping for. It seems like buffs would be better than debuffs in either case so no need to invest in INT. 1 spell that seems interesting is Magic Weapon - if I feel like my defenses are solid enough would it be a good buff to have next to, say, Misty Step or Invisibility (I'll take Find familiar with Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate) or is Haste just tooooooo strong?

Also, if anyone has a differing opinion I'm definitely still open to hearing your advice.

(edit for Tenser's Transformation being too high of a level spell for EK)

[LudicSavant]

Thanks, this is the kind of insight I was hoping for. It seems like buffs would be better than debuffs in either case so no need to invest in INT. 1 spell that seems interesting is Magic Weapon - if I feel like my defenses are solid enough would it be a good buff to have next to, say, Misty Step or Invisibility (I'll take Find familiar with Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate) or is Haste just tooooooo strong?

Also, if anyone has a differing opinion I'm definitely still open to hearing your advice.

(edit for Tenser's Transformation being too high of a level spell for EK)

Elemental Weapon and Magic Weapon are both good buffs for an EK, unless of course you already have magic weapons (since it won't stack).

The limitation of Haste is that it won't scale with additional attacks, has a much shorter duration than EW or MW, and makes you lose a turn if it gets interrupted. It's good, but it doesn't just overshadow other good EK Concentration options like Greater Invisibility, Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Shadow Blade, etc.

[Griswold]

Thanks, this is the kind of insight I was hoping for. It seems like buffs would be better than debuffs in either case so no need to invest in INT. 1 spell that seems interesting is Magic Weapon - if I feel like my defenses are solid enough would it be a good buff to have next to, say, Misty Step or Invisibility (I'll take Find familiar with Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate) or is Haste just tooooooo strong?

The reason I recommended Misty Step and Invisibility was not specifically for defense, but for utility. Both spells can be used in combat, but they're also great for infiltration. See also: Silence. Shuts down enemy casters (but you still got swords and multiple attacks) and also makes you quiet.

Elemental Weapon and Magic Weapon are both good buffs for an EK, unless of course you already have magic weapons (since it won't stack).

The limitation of Haste is that it won't scale with additional attacks, has a much shorter duration than EW or MW, and makes you lose a turn if it gets interrupted. It's good, but it doesn't just overshadow other good EK Concentration options like Greater Invisibility, Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Shadow Blade, etc.

Yeah, I agree with LudicSavant here. Elemental and Magic Weapon are both decent buffs. Keep in mind that you effectively get only one spell off of the Abjuration/Evocation list per spell level, so you need to make it count as much as possible. Do you feel you need more damage output and battlefield control? I think Booming Blade + War Magic has you covered. You also want to avoid wasting your turn (and potentially multiple attacks at higher levels) while casting spells. I think Greater Invisibility and Shadow Blade are probably the best of the bunch in terms of the action economy cost.

And yeah, I don't know what I was thinking with Haste. It's decent, but you're not going to do as much with it as say, a Rogue or melee-focused Cleric or Wizard might get out of it.

And keep in mind that the entire Wizard spell list is your spell list. You can use scrolls (or other items that allow you to cast from your list) to cast spells from any school and any level. You don't need to waste a feat on Ritual Caster: Wizard to get Find Familiar. If you're able to buy scrolls, just get a scroll of it.

[djreynolds]

There is a thread about a longbow EK right now. It's a good build

What is EK giving me that a battlemaster/caster or armored caster doesn't and doesn't include discussions of 10th level eldritch strike?

IMO the eldritch knight is best continually switching it up from fighter to caster. Not having a go to combo they always use. Playing it loose. You're not always running up using war magic and your reaction for the shield spell all the time.

I feel you should keep strength/dex and intelligence close to equal, otherwise, you'll lean towards melee and BB and GFB.

Don't worry about constitution. 14 is fine. You have con save proficiency. You have chainmail and the shield spell.

And forget war caster for now, unless vhuman. I personally like a versatile weapon and a shield for strength or finesse weapon and shield for dex. Drop or sheath your weapon as needed. Remember it comes back to you on a bonus action.

Take cantrips like shocking grasp and poison spray because they give you choices when you might be weaponless.
Sword burst and lightning lure are good.

Also because of your huge A.C., it's okay to draw AoO. You will rarely get hit. Throw in blur and protection from evil and you're tough to hit. So move between attacks and remember shocking grasp.

I look to grab spells that force saves. Hideous laughter, charm, hold person, even sleep.

Where a monk or ranger is a skirmisher. Or a paladin or rogue a striker.... you can be a destabilizing force.

A wizard will never have 3 to 4 solid attacks to spread out. You have both. You can run around and soften up the enemy when an AOE is not practical or throw it all at one enemy or drop a fireball

Or you can just make a bee line for the BBEG and use war magic with BB and your reaction for the shield spell.

So much. Sometimes it's just holding the line vs zombies and ghoul.

So at 4th str/dex, 6int, 8th even them up so around that 10th level you might have 18 in each or 18 and a 16. Perfectly fine

I do recommend 1 level of wizard for 1st level spells. Because they be upcasted. It can come whenever

Such versatile combatant.

[Fable Wright]

Take cantrips like shocking grasp and poison spray because they give you choices when you might be weaponless.
Sword burst and lightning lure are good.

Wait, what? In what situation can you use Shocking Grasp but not Weapon Bond? I guess, in theory, if you had both weapons checked in with a door guard, and then got plane shifted in an ambush before your turn, and had to fight your way out from another plane barehanded and without armor?

Even then, Booming Blade with a 1 damage + STR mod punch would STILL probably do better damage than Shocking Grasp or Poison Spray.

Especially since they use Int instead of STR/DEX.

And while I would love all those save forcing spells you listed, I could take one of them at first level... or I could take Find Familiar.

And in actual play, my EK got a wand of web. Never used it. Never switched up to control caster. It was just an inefficient use of actions compared to the damage he was doing compared to the rest of the party.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

I'm very much in the camp of Int is not important.

The best spells for an EK are utility, which don't rely on Int. You get your spells far later than a real wizard, so any damage spell that might be good for a wizard is long past its shelf life by the time you get it. When you get Fireball, for example, your wizard will likely not want to waste a slot or action on it! You have much better things to do than cast a mediocre spell.

I mean, if you have great Int, perhaps because your game uses 16+1d4 for stats, then sure, there are spells worth looking at, but probably not in Evocation.

For most folks, Str or Dex comes first, then Con, and then probably Wis, and then Dex if you don't already have it maxed. At this point, maybe it's better to be smart than cool, and maybe you can dump Str lower than Int if you fight with Dex.

But so many of the spells you most want don't care about Int, even if you have high Int.

As for Ritual Caster... it's up to you. You might have Feats to burn. But if you want a familiar, relying on a scroll works only if the GM takes care not to harm it. Otherwise, you are sans familiar until you find another scroll or the party wizard has the time or inclination (and GM permission) to write one for you. Of course, if you *do* have access to scrolls, Ritual Caster has increased value because you have access to all those rituals.

Anyway,

Ken

[djreynolds]

You have to remember BB/GFB did not exist for sometime

Shocking grasp is a very underrated cantrip, advantage to any metal armor and scales, and the enemy loses their reaction, so it good for teammates in trouble

If you keep str/dex and int close as you level up, you will find a lot great spells to use.

Poison spray is underrated, 1d12 isn't terrible damage and being save or suck means it viable for melee

Its fairly easy for an EK to keep their attack and int close enough that their spells are worth it. You're right a fireball isn't worth, but is hypnotic wave shutting down a group of foes, or a giant failing his wisdom save versus your Tasha's hideous laughter worth?

If your intelligence is an 18, yes these spells still have value and by 13th level when you are snagging 3rd level spells you'll have at least an 18 intelligence.

An EK can begin with 16 str and 14 int, and at can have an 18 in each str and int at level 8.

So at 8th level their spell DC is 15, so your spells are still very viable and you just got your 2nd level spells and can switch one out

Otherwise, a battlemaster/wizard or battlemaster w/magic initiate is a better choice if you are only going to spam BB or GFB.

Seriously look at a battlmaster with magic initiate for BB and find familiar spamming precision and great weapon master... no caster levels at all there.

[opaopajr]

I would probably leave an 8 or 10 in INT if you are not focusing on save/atk spells. Magic Initiate does not really grab me as much as Ritual Caster or another feat, but as you please! Also, I could see dumping DEX to 8 for heavy armor; even if caught out of armor, shield and Shield works, let alone cover (+2 or +5 DEX save) and Dodge (Adv DEX save).

I'd normally be more experimental, but with AL it is understandable why you'd go with conventional.

[Fable Wright]

You have to remember BB/GFB did not exist for sometime

That does not invalidate the fact that they exist now?

Shocking grasp is a very underrated cantrip, advantage to any metal armor and scales, and the enemy loses their reaction, so it good for teammates in trouble

Shocking Grasp is niche, but it can be effective. It prevents AoOs, which can be great for archers and spellcasters, and its damage is mostly OK. But it requires Int investment to make it work, and this isn't so good that it inherently justifies that investment.

Poison spray is underrated, 1d12 isn't terrible damage and being save or suck means it viable for melee

Let's compare Poison Spray and Toll the Dead.

Poison Spray:
d12 damage: Best cantrip damage die, does the same average damage as a glaive with a +1 Strength modifier
10' range: The same as the glaive, except it can't be boosted
Constitution save: Will almost always fail
Poison damage type: The most resisted type in the game, with the most monsters immune to it

Toll the Dead:
d8-d12 damage: Often d12, since if you're investing in Int that means you're not investing in Dex/Initiative, and thus hitting that d12 damage
60' range: much better than Poison Spray
Wisdom save: We recently had a thread on best save types; Wisdom was resisted more than Int and Cha, but less than physical stats
Necrotic damage type: One of the least resisted types in the game, after Force and Radiant.

To reiterate: Poison Spray is worse damage than a nonmagical glaive at 14 strength, at a worse damage type, at lower odds to hit. I would call it 'overrated' solely because there are people who take it for reasons other than being given it for free by being a Yuan-ti. It is hot garbage.

Its fairly easy for an EK to keep their attack and int close enough that their spells are worth it. You're right a fireball isn't worth, but is hypnotic wave shutting down a group of foes, or a giant failing his wisdom save versus your Tasha's hideous laughter worth?

Tasha's Hideous Laughter is less efficient than using an action surge and murdering the monster.
Hypnotic Pattern is great... if you went first so you could disable them before the fight devolves to a melee (which you're not, having pumped only Strength and Int); the foes at this level aren't immune to Charm effects (increasingly likely); if they're unlikely to be splashed by allied AoEs; and if they fail their save (unlikely without Eldritch Strike, and with Eldritch Strike things have already devolved to where Hypno P is less than ideal).

That's a lot of ifs for one of your very few and very precious non-Evocation, non-Abjuration spells.

Haste doesn't have a lot of ifs. It just works and doesn't need Int.

Alternatively, Shadow Blade at 3rd level, to deal 3d8+(Str/Dex) damage per hit at (likely) advantage and 20/60ft range, at three attacks at this level. Only a bonus action cast, pairs pretty well with Action Surge.

[/QUOTE]An EK can begin with 16 str and 14 int, and at can have an 18 in each str and int at level 8.[/QUOTE]

...Or he could have Polearm Master and 20 Strength, which is going to be doing a lot more for you than access to a 1st level spell that you can cast three times per day.

You can spend your action to be as useful as a 4th level Wizard... or you can spend your action being as useful as an 8th level fighter who just so happens to have a Familiar that grants him advantage on attacks now and then.

Sometimes being a 4th level Wizard is more useful. But is it often enough that you want to sacrifice some of the abilities of an 8th level Fighter?

Seriously look at a battlmaster with magic initiate for BB and find familiar spamming precision and great weapon master... no caster levels at all there.

1. Missing Arcane Strike, which is a big part of what makes Eldritch Knight good.
2. Missing Shield.
3. Missing Absorb Elements.
4. Missing Misty Step.
5. Missing Haste.

Don't get me wrong, Battlemaster or Samurai with Magic Initiate (Find Familiar, Booming Blade, Utility Cantrip) is good. But they are not a TANK like an Eldritch Knight is. No other class is as good at disproportionately holding enemy aggro while avoiding damage.

[djreynolds]

Its a good discussion, and at least we are not bashing the archetype.

Eldritch strike, you need intelligence for that. A 16 or an 18 is not difficult to obtain. You don't need a 20 intelligence to be viable caster, but you need 16 to 18 range.

But if you just dump intelligence, you get a couple of castings of shield or absorb elements and your out. So take fireball and hypnotic pattern, or web or flaming sphere. I like hold person and Tasha hideous laughter

There are some good spells out there. Toll the dead is great, its another good cantrip... but most cantrips you need a decent intelligence for the save DC. You can choose any you want.

If you don't pump intelligence the only cantrips that you will use is BB/GFB.

By 8th level, you can have an 18 str/dex and 18 int, when level 10 comes around eldritch strike/hold person will be very tough to resist. Does this work with say a 20 str/dex and 16 int, yeah you can go that route.

But its not working with an 8 or 10.

Its a good class/archetype and with decent intelligence, doesn't need to be a 20, you fill in multiple roles. You don't have to be a tank, you can be an archer. You fight with a shield and rapier. Its a versatile class.

You can change/morph when needed.

You can tank with war magic and use your reaction with shield spell

You can land big melee/attacks versus one opponent or spread them out

And there are very good spells out there, yes its limited, maybe its 1 or 2 from other schools, but they end up being good selections

I used to think you could dump intelligence, and a player at my table with a 16 intelligence for his EK did stuff totally unexpected and unoptimized and it worked.

The dice in 5E are very funny, and sometimes they just go your way. I like familiars but IMX they die quite often.

So don't miss out and dump intelligence, and I recommend 1 level of wizard just to grab spells to cast. And since many fighters will often take resilient wisdom, cleric is often a good dip as well

[alexfitzrose]

OK, I'm going with the following starting array after racial (variant human):

STR 16 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 14 CHA 8

It's not quite an INT dump but I will mostly avoid save spells like recommended unless I come across that headband of intellect (considering the spells that I'd want to use INT come much later). I just think it reflects my character really well after looking at like a dozen possible combinations.

Now, since I will only be using 2 ASIs to increase stats and I will be starting variant human for magic initiate, what other feats should I get and at what level?

I know that initiate and ritual caster only really add to my low level spell selection, but I was thinking how they interact and have (lots of) questions.

For example, if I take Alarm as one of my spells at 3rd level then I know I can only cast it with slots, but if I take ritual caster at 4 (let's I pick find familiar and comprehend language) can I cast Alarm as a ritual then?