OOTS #1170 - The Discussion Thread

[Windscion]

Okay, I've been thinking, and I think I understand something now. Specifically, why does a God who challenges a soul's disposition get to enter Hel's domain uninvited? And then I realized: the souls go to her by default. If the judgement were made beforehand by some impartial mediator, there would be no excuse for trespassing.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Okay, I've been thinking, and I think I understand something now. Specifically, why does a God who challenges a soul's disposition get to enter Hel's domain uninvited? And then I realized: the souls go to her by default. If the judgement were made beforehand by some impartial mediator, there would be no excuse for trespassing.

If the judgement was made beforehand by an impartial mediator she would have nearly no souls, as no one who is impartial exists that would be acceptable to Hel, Thor, or Loki, and Hel would have next to no chance of finding someone partial to her... only the worst of the worst stagnant bums or monstrous cowards would be hers.

[warmachine]

Next time, have an adjudication process with an independent adjudicator at set times so people can't barge in repeating arguments over definitions and contract terms. Mind you, I am impressed she knows the deaths of those two souls.

[Particle_Man]

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In the spirit of your name, and the fact Plan rhymes with Man... I edit to adds this Parody


Hel has a plan, Hel has a plan
Hel has a plan to get every soul she can
Is it a dwarf, or is it a vamp, Did Roy even know it was in his camp
Does Throg remain technically the champ
Hel has a Plan

Loki's Plan, Loki's Plan
Loki's Plan foils Hel's dumb plan
The get in a fight, Loki wins
Loki's Plan

Thor's Plan, Thor's Plan
To save the entire universe man
He's got a Dwarf with hammer Trick
A Member of the Order of the Stick
A group who is sort of thick
Thor's plan

Dark One's Plan, Dark One's Plan
Move the gate to another land
Meet the Snarl, Sounds real lame
Dark One's Plan

Loki's Plan, Plans with Plan
Loki's Plan ruins the Dark One's Plan
They get fight, Loki wins
Loki's Plans.

Kudos! A thing of beauty!

[Reo]

I barely log into this forum, but I had to do so to say:

This update is great!

[Schroeswald]

Hilgya suffers the delusion that she won't go to hell regardless of the manner of her death.

Other than the deluded ravings of a character shown in multiple scenes to BE deluded, do you have any reason whatsoever to think that this will work?

We've seen arguments over souls, this "loophole" is never mentioned by anyone else, even when people are looking for loopholes.

Again, the system is explicitly unfair, we've seen the scene where it was set up, note the COMPLETE lack of any such loophole. The ability to die with honor and get out of Hel IS THE LOOPHOLE.

Loki set up this entire scenario, if he thought this would hurt him (and sending people who don't die honorably automatically to Hel hurts him, because people who go to him aren't usually honorable) he wouldn't set this up. We don't really know what he wanted from it, but I think Hilgya will go to him, she's his cleric and so he most likely set this up to make dwarves like her go to him (because doing this as a prank on Thor wouldn't explain how it helps him).

[Thecommander236]

Get rekt, Hel.

[Throknor]

That said, Hel's vote has already been cast and there are "no take backs" on that vote even if she no longer profits from or wants to destroy the world. So I don't see how the Thor/Loki team up saves the world from destruction, per se. That task still rests with Durkon and his family.

She literally states she intends to kill Durkon while the other gods are distracted from watching her. By being in visual contact with her they prevent this. Which allows Durkon and his family to continue.

Hence "Divine Diversion" applies to the gods supposedly being distracted by Dvalin, but also Thor and Loki distracting Hel.

[gatemansgc]

Also, Loki brought the Filing Cabinet of Holding, I see.

XD i love it!

just imagine how many dwarf souls are being saved!

[Kantaki]

I just realized Hel's repeating the same mistake that led to her agreeing to the bet in the first place.
She's too focused on the big price, utterly discarding smaller scale wins.

First she gives up the right to have priests- basically PR-people and recruiters for her cause- for default dominion over the dwarves, and now she gives up the souls that got her- uncontested -for the chance to get all living dwarves if the world goes badaboom.

Even better, when things inevitably blow up in her face she blames everyone else.
And immediately does it again.

Huh. Would Hinjo fall for pulling an Azurite Prince scam?
I mean it would be fighting evil.

[mjasghar]

Ummm
I wonder
Will hel be so distracted she just gives up any soul they ask for
And as a result *Grontor and all the dwarven vampires are resurrected or suffer true death as the imprisoned soul is released

[Grey Watcher]

Man, Hel is really putting her blinders on. She just established precedent for a whole year's worth of deaths to be classified as "honorable."

"Bobby Exampleshield clearly died with honor!"

"He did not! He was fleeing a kobold raiding party and got shot in the back!"

"The same thing happened to Regin Greenhammer, but you agreed that was honorable. Are you seriously trying to contend that an arrow shot by an orc is somehow materially different from one shot by a kobold?"

Even if she wises up to the scam before Loki says another word, just how many future Dedications did she just cost herself? (Yes, she's assuming she's going to triumph here, but she evidently hasn't heard the mortal proverb regarding eggs and baskets.)

[mjasghar]

Not of fan of this tactic :(

Seriously; the purpose of honor and an afterlife is to reward desirable and punish undesirable behavior during life, so here we are undermining that system and rewarding cowards and the dishonorable.

Are we suggesting that the ends justify the means?

Or is it just "gosh darn it those wacky chaotic gods"

This doesn't feel consistent with the larger message.

The problem with the system is it depends on how dwarves die not how they live
So a moment of minor weakness at death damns them despite centuries of honour

[Grey Watcher]

Ummm
I wonder
Will hel be so distracted she just gives up any soul they ask for
And as a result *Grontor and all the dwarven vampires are resurrected or suffer true death as the imprisoned soul is released

Becoming a vampire seems to be a separate process and has nothing to do with the The Bet. Durkon died with honor (as evidenced that he got offered the Valhalla retirement package), but that question was rendered (temporarily) moot by the vampirism, which prevents the soul from passing on to any afterlife.

[Peelee]

Ummm
I wonder
Will hel be so distracted she just gives up any soul they ask for
And as a result *Grontor and all the dwarven vampires are resurrected or suffer true death as the imprisoned soul is released

No, since she doesn't have those souls. They are still trapped in their corpses. When the vamp is destroyed, the soul goes to its proper place. Durkon's soul was never Hel's, it was just shanghied on the way to Valhalla.

ETS: Grey Watch'd!

[Fyraltari]

Ummm
I wonder
Will hel be so distracted she just gives up any soul they ask for
And as a result *Grontor and all the dwarven vampires are resurrected or suffer true death as the imprisoned soul is released

She can't realease souls she doesn't have. Gontor's soul is being held by Gontor* at the moment, same with every other vampire. Note how Durkon had to wait until Durkon*'s death to move to his afterlife.

EDIT: Screw this, I'm going to bed.

[hroþila]

I think it's pretty obvious that Thor has been subverting the system and cheating Hel for a looong time. The mummy rot incident might not be persuasive on its own, but we've seen Thor argue that dying from infection after fighting a tree counts as honorable death in combat, even though we know Thor thinks the dwarves are loonies for their beliefs about trees. And if that wasn't enough, we know that dying of alcohol-related illnesses counts as honorable. I mean.

Even though Hel was busy here and she had a good reason to want to get rid of Thor ASAP, I think we just saw a glimpse of how Thor managed to subvert the system to such an extent. She's not strong-willed enough.

[dtilque]

Mind you, I am impressed she knows the deaths of those two souls.

Divine memory. Just like Thor can remember billions of prior worlds and the people/beings in them.

[Peelee]

Also, color me completely wrong on the "I don't think any gods will be looking in on the vote."

[zimmerwald1915]

So, takeaway is, Thor could have contested these dwarves' souls, but chose not to. Either because he felt it was a futile exercise not worth his time, or because he deliberately sacrificed them in order to have a chip in a situation like this. Either way, not a good look.

[jindra34]

And here we see Loki at his mythological best; saving the other deities of his pantheon from their own agreements by using the letter and/or spirit of those agreements as a razor sharp edge.

[The_Weirdo]

So, takeaway is, Thor could have done contested these dwarves' souls, but chose not to. Either because he felt it was a futile exercise not worth his time, or because he deliberately sacrificed them in order to have a chip in a situation like this. Either way, not a good look.

A more generous interpretation would claim that it was futile and that, now, it is not. He didn't foresee the usefulness of that, but now it presents itself in the form of Hel being completely willing to relinquish them all to him, just so she can get to cheat the system by causing a heart attack.

But, of course, the simple fact that the bet happened in the first place makes it very clear how little value the dwarves have to the gods.

On a side note...

"Hi, Pumpkin!"

[Schroeswald]

So, takeaway is, Thor could have done contested these dwarves' souls, but chose not to. Either because he felt it was a futile exercise not worth his time, or because he deliberately sacrificed them in order to have a chip in a situation like this. Either way, not a good look.

No? He's clearly stretching the idea of "honor" to a ridiculous extent, what he is currently doing is twofold, slowing down Hel by distracting her, and saving the souls of these dwarves from certain torture. Normally Hel wouldn't give in because dying of pneumonia while hiding a sheet isn't honorable by any stretch of the term, he's using helping the souls of current dwarves to help the souls of dead, which is a great look on him.

EDIT: Ninja'd by The_Wierdo

[Peelee]

So, takeaway is, Thor could have done contested these dwarves' souls, but chose not to. Either because he felt it was a futile exercise not worth his time, or because he deliberately sacrificed them in order to have a chip in a situation like this. Either way, not a good look.

Option 3: taking obvious loser cases that can't be argued on their merits and slipping them in when he knows they'll get rubberstamped. Totally a good look.

[zimmerwald1915]

No? He's clearly stretching the idea of "honor" to a ridiculous extent, what he is currently doing is twofold, slowing down Hel by distracting her, and saving the souls of these dwarves from certain torture. Normally Hel wouldn't give in because dying of pneumonia while hiding a sheet isn't honorable by any stretch of the term, he's using helping the souls of current dwarves to help the souls of dead, which is a great look on him.

EDIT: Ninja'd by The_Wierdo

So again, it's acceptable to only contest the souls he thinks he can save? Why?

(TFW a poster agrees with The_Wierdo over oneself.)

[zimmerwald1915]

Option 3: taking obvious loser cases that can't be argued on their merits and slipping them in when he knows they'll get rubberstamped. Totally a good look.

Who is Thor to judge when a case can be argued on the merits? What criteria does he use? Personal convenience for himself? Why is that more valuable than the concerned dwarf's soul?

[The_Weirdo]

So again, it's acceptable to only contest the souls he thinks he can save? Why?

(TFW a poster agrees with The_Wierdo over oneself.)

Hey, I happened to make a reasonable point there. And I did point out that the gods do not value dwarves on account of how they behave WRT the bet.

Besides, you've agreed with me in several aspects, at several times, on several matters.

As for it being acceptable to only contest the souls he thinks he can save, you may have a point there...

[zimmerwald1915]

Besides, you've agreed with me in several aspects, at several times, on several matters.

Yeah, but hardly anyone else ever did

[The_Weirdo]

Yeah, but hardly anyone else ever did

Well, that's not our flaw, now is it?

[MADCrab]

Who is Thor to judge when a case can be argued on the merits? What criteria does he use? Personal convenience for himself? Why is that more valuable than the concerned dwarf's soul?

... seriously?
Thor has been shown to argue on the flimsiest of excuses several times. Sometimes there's just absolutely no way you're going to win, and you just give the other side more ammo to reject you ALL the time.

Hell, that's not even looking at the language here that suggests that he only gets one try at disputing a soul's destination, which suggests holding on to the lost causes until some miraculous circumstances occur that let you press an advantage - like the other side being desperate to get rid of you.

Everything he's done here has been capital G Good, and you're complaining that he's not doing it right.