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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    You know, a concept of Crusade might just do it: go there, do war at them.
    Or perhaps a god of horsemen. Of course, that would lock you into either a chaotic or evil alignment: if there's anything I've learned from Sharpe, it's that the cavalry are all lunatics, prats, or both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby Frost
    `This is just the beginning, Citizens! Today we have boiled a pot who's steam shall be seen across the entire galaxy. The Tea Must Flow, and it shall! The banner of the British Space Empire will be unfurled across a thousand worlds, carried forth by the citizens of Urn, and before them the Tea shall flow like a steaming brown river of shi-*cough*- shimmering moral fibre!`

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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Kelanen and Sixin, Greyhawk deities, both have war and travel domains. Tem-Et-Nu or Gilgamesh from Sandstorm.

    Also, worshipping the Asgardian, Olympian or Pharonic pantheons in Deities in Demigods.

    There's a few others, too.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Cool, yeah! Divine Crusader 5/Ordained Champion 5/Wayfarer Guide 3 would get you to DC 10th casting, but not until the end. Might be tricky also to work out a deity or cause of Travel and War?
    If his god happens to have the Time domain as well, it could literally be a warrior devoted to fighting a Time War, which by definition is everywhere and everywhen at once; your cleric is a warrior assigned to this particular space of time and space and gets his teleport-hopping powers in order to go about smashing threats to causality and/or reality.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Cool, yeah! Divine Crusader 5/Ordained Champion 5/Wayfarer Guide 3 would get you to DC 10th casting, but not until the end. Might be tricky also to work out a deity or cause of Travel and War?
    I don't think Ordained Champion can be CG (which my wood elf soulborn/paladin of freedom would be).

    But for +16 BAB I could go for Soulborn 2/Paladin of Freedom 3/Ranger 2/Divine Crusader 8/Wayfarer Guide 3/Ranger 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    If his god happens to have the Time domain as well, it could literally be a warrior devoted to fighting a Time War, which by definition is everywhere and everywhen at once; your cleric is a warrior assigned to this particular space of time and space and gets his teleport-hopping powers in order to go about smashing threats to causality and/or reality.
    Well, it could never (John) hurt!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Doctor
    Last edited by Particle_Man; 2019-08-06 at 01:17 AM.

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  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    IIRC Ordained Champion has an adaptation section that might help.

    Divine Crusader has a +7 BAB requirement doesn't it? Makes it tricky.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Well, it could never (John) hurt!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Doctor
    The DM was horrible, he started throwing random midlife crisis encounters at the PCs.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    IIRC Ordained Champion has an adaptation section that might help.

    Divine Crusader has a +7 BAB requirement doesn't it? Makes it tricky.
    You are right; I forgot to add two levels of ranger before diving into divine crusader. Also I would only end up with 4 levels of ranger.

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    P.S. sorry everyone, I didn't mean to turn this thread into "make suggestions about Particle_Man's character", I just liked where it was going, it piqued my interest!

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Got a few personally, classwise.

    Mountebank (Dragon Compendium): Before they made a prestige class with this name in the Complete Scoundrel book, the Mountebank was arguably the OG warlock. It isn't really powerful (has a lot of mind-affecting abilities, which can be situational), but it is very intriguing as a servant of an evil power. Also, it has a bit of flavor built in. Give it a look if you're looking for an alternative to Warlock (or something quirky to gestalt with it, now that I think about it...)

    Candle Caster: Someone mentioned this, but I wanted to again. I didn't really give it a lot of thought for a while, but I realized that you could use it as an effective grenade. Light a wick, throw the candle, kaboom. Also, it's notable because it's one of the few examples of an iconic character in a prestige class - Mialee was the original Candle Caster artwork. Other characters may have gotten such boosts, but I've not found one in the books (though Redgar is a binder, per the cover of Tome of Magic...)
    -Sidenote that fits as an obscure theory: If you take all appearances of the iconic characters and consider them all canon as part of a long story, you could argue that Mialee is the most powerful. Not only does she have a prestige class AND reaches epic levels as a wizard besides that, she is literally the only character in the game portrayed as a Gestalt character, not once but thrice. If you assume she hit all 20 levels in each class, and was using wizard and candlecaster to fill in the other side, she arguably ends up a (Wizard 50/Candlecaster 10)//(Fighter 20/Rogue 20/Ranger 20).

    Hatamoto and Landed Samurai (Way of the Daimyo, Rokugan): This is 3rd party Rokugan material, but it's weird. The two prestige classes represent social positions, and only go for three levels. The weirdest thing, though, is that in theory you can take them by level 2. Landed Samurai requires a Charisma of 11 and Void Use, meaning the only thing keeping it from being taken level 1 is that class choice comes before Feat choice technically (but then again, race choice comes earlier, so you could take your human feat as Void Use). Hatamoto simply requires points of Station, a mechanic in the book (which is designed to simulate leaders and officials of various sorts). In theory, someone could obtain that station at level one and become a Hatamoto at level 2 (inadvisable, since a hatamoto is an adviser and should be experienced, but possible). They aren't great (except for being part of the subsystems introduced in that book) but I like the idea that you could potentially just take a level of samurai and then jump into running a small parcel of land because you're slightly better at speaking than average (and not even significantly) and have a channel to the Void (which sometimes is even given for free in a campaign), or that a young adult who just graduated the equivalent of high school can be granted the position as the local lord's right hand man.

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Let's go with a monster; haven't seen one of those in this thread for a while:

    Dream Vestiges are the result of a city's worth of people becoming trapped while dreaming, banding together, and returning hungry for... well, everything. Fans of the Wheel of Time series will recognize the influence of Mashadar in its design and powers (though honestly, as a CR 16 incorporeal undead with no-save ability damage and the ability to absolutely consume its prey... it's still less powerful and intimidating than Mashadar. More intelligent, though).

    Now I kind of want to use Symbiotic Creature to recreate Padan Faine.
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  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    One monster I like is The Lost from magic of incarnum. A template that happens when an incarnum storm hits, leaving its victims basically soulless and consumed with one of four emotions. Reminds me of what happened to some people in Robin Hobb’s Assassin trilogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    P.S. sorry everyone, I didn't mean to turn this thread into "make suggestions about Particle_Man's character", I just liked where it was going, it piqued my interest!
    Just to give a coda to this: Wood Elf Soulborn 2 (with both elf substitution levels)/Paladin of Freedom 3/Ranger 2 (fe: undead, twf (mostly unused))/Divine Crusader 5 (of Sehanine Moonbow)/Ranger 1/Horizon Walker 7 (hills, plains, underground, desert, forest, aligned, and shifting). I like being immune to blasphemy. Feats likely weapon focus quarterstaff (god’s favoured weapon), power attack, martial study (counter charge), martial stance (step of the wind), melee weapon mastery (bludgeoning), dimensional jaunt, and crushing strike. Usually going for spot and listen. Travel Domain. Usually go with heavy armour and using quarterstaff as a two handed weapon. And once I get dimension door once every four rounds, I can leave the divine crusader spell in place and keep dimensional jaunt up all day long too!
    Last edited by Particle_Man; 2019-08-12 at 12:49 PM.

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  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but mine is probably the Mercurial Strike feat from Dragon Compendium.

    It says the following:

    MERCURIAL STRIKE [GENERAL]

    With a single motion, you draw your weapon and slash
    at an opponent.

    Prerequisite: Quick Draw, base attack bonus +5.
    Benefit: Any time an opponent provokes an attack
    of opportunity from you but you are unarmed, you
    may draw a melee weapon and make your attack
    of opportunity with it. The target of your attack of
    opportunity is caught flat-footed for that attack.
    Author: Mike Mearls and Jeff Quick. Source: #310.
    I happened across it when I was going over some resources for an Iaijutsu Focus character build I was doing and looking for flat-footed enablers to get more Focus checks. This fits the bill, has a feat tax of something an IF character would likely already have, and is a neat effect for just about anyone.

    ...Until you really sit down and read it and realize that this feat as written doesn't actually do anything.

    In order for someone to provoke an attack of opportunity from you, they have to take a distracting action while they are within an area that you threaten. You only threaten squares when you are armed with a weapon. However in order to be permitted to draw a weapon as part of your attack of opportunity, it must be provoked when you are unarmed, which is impossible.

    The DM and I agreed to essentially just house-rule it as, "Yeah screw it, it does what the designers clearly wanted it to do."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  13. - Top - End - #283
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Why is this asking for someone to be without an arm ( unarmed ), draw the ground ( improvised melee weapon ), and attack with the ground as the attack of opportunity?

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Assume it unofficially has a feat prerequisite of improved unarmed strike, or wear spiked guantlets, and it should work.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but mine is probably the Mercurial Strike feat from Dragon Compendium.

    It says the following:



    I happened across it when I was going over some resources for an Iaijutsu Focus character build I was doing and looking for flat-footed enablers to get more Focus checks. This fits the bill, has a feat tax of something an IF character would likely already have, and is a neat effect for just about anyone.

    ...Until you really sit down and read it and realize that this feat as written doesn't actually do anything.

    In order for someone to provoke an attack of opportunity from you, they have to take a distracting action while they are within an area that you threaten. You only threaten squares when you are armed with a weapon. However in order to be permitted to draw a weapon as part of your attack of opportunity, it must be provoked when you are unarmed, which is impossible.

    The DM and I agreed to essentially just house-rule it as, "Yeah screw it, it does what the designers clearly wanted it to do."
    You should check out the latest Junkyard Wars. One of the entries is an Iaijutsu Focus/stealth build, that appears to be actually named after the Mercurial Strike feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Azoth was believed to be the essential agent of transformation in alchemy. It is the name given by ancient alchemists to mercury, the animating spirit hidden in all matter that makes transmutation possible.
    It uses both Improved Unarmed Strike (to threaten the area around him) and Robilar's Gambit to make the feat pretty terrifying.
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  16. - Top - End - #286
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Assume it unofficially has a feat prerequisite of improved unarmed strike, or wear spiked guantlets, and it should work.
    See this came up because the character in question has levels in Unarmed Swordsage and both of those have the same problem.

    You are considered armed when unarmed if you have Improved Unarmed Strike, and you must be unarmed when the attack is provoked in order to benefit from Mercurial Strike.

    In order for the feat to do what the designers wanted it would have to be worded like this:

    Benefit: When you take this feat, choose one weapon that you are proficient with. As long as you are carrying the chosen weapon, you are considered to be threatening any area within reach as though you were wielding it. Whenever an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity and the weapon is not drawn, you can draw the chosen weapon as part of the attack. The enemy is considered flat-footed for this attack of opportunity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    I checked Dragon Compendium errata, and this wasn't addressed.

    To me, the most reasonable course would be to allow the feat to function when unarmed, even without IUS or armor spikes etc.

    Benefit: Any time an opponent would provoke an attack of opportunity from you if you were armed, but you are unarmed, you may draw a melee weapon and make your attack of opportunity with it. The target of your attack of opportunity is caught flat-footed for that attack.
    That's how I'd run the feat in my game...

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    I checked Dragon Compendium errata, and this wasn't addressed.

    To me, the most reasonable course would be to allow the feat to function when unarmed, even without IUS or armor spikes etc.



    That's how I'd run the feat in my game...
    I started at something roughly similar to that, but then realized that wording that vague opens the door to something along the lines of hanging a large-sized spiked chain on my hip and then drawing a dagger and attacking someone 15 feet away.
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    Kitchen Crashers Protocol for Peace

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

  19. - Top - End - #289
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    I started at something roughly similar to that, but then realized that wording that vague opens the door to something along the lines of hanging a large-sized spiked chain on my hip and then drawing a dagger and attacking someone 15 feet away.
    Hmm, good point. Might need to include wording around "natural reach", or something similar.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    I started at something roughly similar to that, but then realized that wording that vague opens the door to something along the lines of hanging a large-sized spiked chain on my hip and then drawing a dagger and attacking someone 15 feet away.
    Opportunity attacks are explicitly melee, barring some class ability or feat I'm unaware of, so in the above case you'd have to make the attack with a weapon that could actually reach the person. At least, that's how I'd rule it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack,

    (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/att...pportunity.htm)
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2019-08-12 at 05:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
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  21. - Top - End - #291
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Opportunity attacks are explicitly melee, barring some class ability or feat I'm unaware of, so in the above case you'd have to make the attack with a weapon that could actually reach the person. At least, that's how I'd rule it.
    Naturally. I'm mostly pointing out how excessively wordy and complex this feat would actually need to be in order to do what Mearls and Quick wanted it to do.



    I actually did find one scenario in which the feat would function as written:

    The Feigned Opening maneuver in the Setting Sun school in the Tome of Battle says that whenever an opponent takes an attack of opportunity against you, you can activate the maneuver and if their attack fails to hit you they immediately provoke an attack of opportunity from you. Since there are otherwise zero conditions or requirements for this maneuver, you could run through the enemy's threatened area with your weapon sheathed, use this maneuver and (if they miss) cause them to provoke an attack of opportunity while you are unarmed. This would then trigger Mercurial Strike, allowing you to draw your weapon for the attack and catch the enemy flat-footed.

    This setup makes Feigned Opening a middling (if risky) choice for an IF build.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    But that's one of the things about interpreting RAW—when you pick a reading that goes against RAI, it often has a ripple effect that results in dysfunctions in other places.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Awkward View Post
    I actually did find one scenario in which the feat would function as written:

    The Feigned Opening maneuver in the Setting Sun school in the Tome of Battle says that whenever an opponent takes an attack of opportunity against you, you can activate the maneuver and if their attack fails to hit you they immediately provoke an attack of opportunity from you. Since there are otherwise zero conditions or requirements for this maneuver, you could run through the enemy's threatened area with your weapon sheathed, use this maneuver and (if they miss) cause them to provoke an attack of opportunity while you are unarmed. This would then trigger Mercurial Strike, allowing you to draw your weapon for the attack and catch the enemy flat-footed.

    This setup makes Feigned Opening a middling (if risky) choice for an IF build.
    That's a good one, but Robilar's Gambit (only requires an opponent "striking at you", no requirement for threatening them) and Karmic Strike (they have to hit you with a melee or melee touch attack; also no requirement for threatening the square they're in) are easier to pull off consistently. Though either one requires more build investment than taking a single maneuver if you're already taking a Setting Sun class. Also, all three options are admittedly pretty risky unless you've got a lot of extra damage going on (or some other riders on your attacks, like tripping).

    Hmm, actually, would combining Mercurial Strike and Defensive Throw (make a trip attack against an opponent who misses you) let you add your Iaijutsu Focus damage to the touch attack?

    Regardless, yeah it's kind of weird that you have to go out of your way for a build that makes Mercurial Strike function.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
    When you combine the two most devious, sneaky, manipulative, underhanded, cunning, and diabolical forces in the known universe, the consequences can be world-shattering. Those forces are, of course, players and GMs.
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    I'm forming a team to walk for suicide prevention. Donations or simply spreading the word are both extremely welcome. All donations go to Out of the Darkness, the non-profit organizing the walk.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniikinis View Post
    Item
    Mask of Lies(CAd) - Basically the changeling race in an item with a bonus effect of undetectable alignment.
    Its only Disguese, as the Disguise Self spell, not alter self, so its not like the changeling racial.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Also pseudodragons takes easily more screen time than "true" dragons.
    (but it is fair: "true" dragons are not telepathic venomous flying cats and so does not deserve screen time like a pseudodragon)

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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Its only Disguese, as the Disguise Self spell, not alter self, so its not like the changeling racial.
    Well, it is 'like' it - quite a lot 'like' it actually - but it does have some differences, yes.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Its only Disguese, as the Disguise Self spell, not alter self, so its not like the changeling racial.
    True, but similar enough for most people's tastes. And as adventurer said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Well, it is 'like' it - quite a lot 'like' it actually - but it does have some differences, yes.
    So while it might not be Alter Self, it can still behave as such most of the time unless you were looking for something different than your base body plan.
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  26. - Top - End - #296
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aniikinis View Post
    True, but similar enough for most people's tastes. And as adventurer said:



    So while it might not be Alter Self, it can still behave as such most of the time unless you were looking for something different than your base body plan.
    Yeah. Changelings actually don't get Alter Self - IIRC if you do a side-by-side comparison of the text of their racial ability with the text of Disguise Self, they're nearly identical - except of course one is an illusion and the other a physical change.

  27. - Top - End - #297
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Yeah. Changelings actually don't get Alter Self - IIRC if you do a side-by-side comparison of the text of their racial ability with the text of Disguise Self, they're nearly identical - except of course one is an illusion and the other a physical change.
    Well, that and:
    Quote Originally Posted by ECS pg. 13
    Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the super natural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions...
    So it very much is "Basically the changeling race in an item," except as an illusion rather then a physical change...
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  28. - Top - End - #298
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Aha. Word.

  29. - Top - End - #299
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Mask of lies was updated in Magic Item Compendium to only give you three daily charges of disguise self. This was a huge power boost, of course, since the price was slashed to 4,500 gp (down from 17,000 gp) in the process.

  30. - Top - End - #300
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Favorite Obscure Prc, Feat, Spell etc.

    Props again for the mountebank. I actually made a fix for it, mostly because I hated the fact it's capstone was "beg the DM or be removed from play harder than risen martyr." The concept was really cool and was like a sneaky warlock at base.

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