The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    IMHO that speaks volumes about who she was. Serini's notable feature is not that she is a rogue. Her notable feature is that she and Kraagor were two very decent human(oid) beings who held the team together by their winning personalities. Writing this stuff down makes her a bad at being a rogue but being good at being Serini.

    "No matter what she said about honoring Kraagor to Kraagor's personal friends, remember she is a rogue first" is a very weak argument IMO.
    I agree, I'd argue that even though my theory contains pieces of respect for her other teammates, its still primarily that she is respecting Kraagor who sacrificed his existence to seal the rifts, she just also respected her other teamates enough to build a strategy that used theirs, also, we've already had a trickery gate, why have another?

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    Writing this stuff down makes her a bad at being a rogue but being good at being Serini.
    I just wanted to chime in that I love this. To steal (and Paraphrase) from a Star Wars review, if you can't describe a character without saying what they looked like or what their job was, it's not a good character. Her character defines her class, not the other way around.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by SlashDash View Post
    Yeah, I mean why would she write down the wrong coordinates just for her own gate but would put the right one for everyone else?
    And also, I haven't been convinced that any of the "The gate's not actually in the dungeon" ideas are better defenses for the gate than "The gate is in the dungeon."

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

    It could just be neither the dungeons nor the statue. Remember the discussion back at Azure City, where the Order saw at least partially through Redcloak's "shuffle" tactic to realize that all of the visible Xykons were fake? Something about the true goal of a hustle being that the person playing it doesn't realize the crucial piece is up the dealer's sleeve the entire time, or something similar.

    I don't think the statue is the Gate, since as people have amply pointed out, it's extremely vulnerable to random attack. If it is there, it would have to be made of much sterner stuff -- probably magically reinforced to a "Xykon's phylactery" sort of ridiculous degree -- than any of the easily-destroyed Gates seen so far.

    I also don't think that the dungeons lead to the Gate either, as even with hundreds or thousands of decoy passages, you're risking someone lucking upon the right entrance by sheer fluke and powering their way through in no time. (And the bugbear clan farming the dungeon has had a lot of time.)

    Bear in mind that the canyon landscape that contains Kraagor's Tomb is explicitly said to be built up out of multidimensional stone. That means that the original ground surface is buried, perhaps quite deeply, under all of that. The rift and the gate surrounding it might once have been at ground level, but now could be completely sealed under and within a thick layer of the same stone, which if I recall, should be able to block divinations, detections and true-seeing magic. Perhaps the statue merely marks the point on the surface that is directly above the Gate itself, so that someone who knows what to look for won't completely forget where it truly lies.
    Last edited by TheNecrocomicon; 2019-08-20 at 01:09 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNecrocomicon View Post
    It could just be neither the dungeons nor the statue. Remember the discussion back at Azure City, where the Order saw at least partially through Redcloak's "shuffle" tactic to realize that all of the visible Xykons were fake? Something about the true goal of a hustle being that the person playing it doesn't realize the crucial piece is up the dealer's sleeve the entire time, or something similar.

    I don't think the statue is the Gate, since as people have amply pointed out, it's extremely vulnerable to random attack. If it is there, it would have to be made of much sterner stuff -- probably magically reinforced to a "Xykon's phylactery" sort of ridiculous degree -- than any of the easily-destroyed Gates seen so far.

    I also don't think that the dungeons lead to the Gate either, as even with hundreds or thousands of decoy passages, you're risking someone lucking upon the right entrance by sheer fluke and powering their way through in no time. (And the bugbear clan farming the dungeon has had a lot of time.)

    Bear in mind that the canyon landscape that contains Kraagor's Tomb is explicitly said to be built up out of multidimensional stone. That means that the original ground surface is buried, perhaps quite deeply, under all of that. The rift and the gate surrounding it might once have been at ground level, but now could be completely sealed under and within a thick layer of the same stone, which if I recall, should be able to block divinations, detections and true-seeing magic. Perhaps the statue merely marks the point on the surface that is directly above the Gate itself, so that someone who knows what to look for won't completely forget where it truly lies.
    Yeah that's why I think that the gate is just encased in multidimensional stone. It's not obvious, like being behind one of the doors, but it's also not an "obvious trick spot" like in the statue. It's just some anonymous place under the hill. In terms of Kraagar's belief in physical might, it will both take a sh*tload of physical power to crack the stone and get to it, and depending on how it is set up it may be impossible to do without loosing all of the monsters from all the holes on those who try to access it. If this is actually the case (the fact that I think this will happen leads me to believe that this theory must be false) I would guess that MiTD's ability to seemingly cause minor earthquakes with a stomp and Redcloak's access to the earthquake spell could both potentially allow Team Evil to access the Gate and Xykon has plenty of destructive spells that could also probably do it if directed towards that goal. Though I would guess putting way too many monsters to deal with at once on top of it would be designed to discourage anyone from actually destroying the stone the gate is buried in - it's the perfect trick.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Yeah that's why I think that the gate is just encased in multidimensional stone. It's not obvious, like being behind one of the doors, but it's also not an "obvious trick spot" like in the statue. It's just some anonymous place under the hill. In terms of Kraagar's belief in physical might, it will both take a sh*tload of physical power to crack the stone and get to it, and depending on how it is set up it may be impossible to do without loosing all of the monsters from all the holes on those who try to access it. If this is actually the case (the fact that I think this will happen leads me to believe that this theory must be false) I would guess that MiTD's ability to seemingly cause minor earthquakes with a stomp and Redcloak's access to the earthquake spell could both potentially allow Team Evil to access the Gate and Xykon has plenty of destructive spells that could also probably do it if directed towards that goal. Though I would guess putting way too many monsters to deal with at once on top of it would be designed to discourage anyone from actually destroying the stone the gate is buried in - it's the perfect trick.
    It could be that if you unearth the statue, you have a vague piece of instructions that tell you where to look.

    This, of course, just leads you to the room filled with hordes of [what you think MitD is here].
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    And also, I haven't been convinced that any of the "The gate's not actually in the dungeon" ideas are better defenses for the gate than "The gate is in the dungeon."
    In a way. But in a way, also not.

    Say you've got something extremely valuable, such as a hugeass diamond. Where do you put it? In the big fancy expensive safe you've got, or elsewhere?

    Sure, if the safe's a ploy, you can trick would-be thieves and keep the prize safe from them. But if you do that, then it remains that the prize is hidden in a location with far lesser protections, which then increases the odds of someone finding it my sheer luck. Do you really want to place it somewhere where a large beast traveling through could accidentally break it, and all of existence along with it? All while you've spent billions (figurative) for this outerwordly safe that's not actually protecting anything?

    The shell game con makes sense because it costs just about nothing. But there comes a point of diminishing returns, where if you spend too much into the diversion, it stops making sense to not actually use it.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

    There is the possibility that Serini did the one thing the others didn't - combine their powers to seal Kraagor's gate.

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  9. - Top - End - #99
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by jwhouk View Post
    There is the possibility that Serini did the one thing the others didn't - combine their powers to seal Kraagor's gate.

    Illusions, Magic, Nature, Strength, Deception.
    Is that not what I said? I thought I just included details on how exactly the defenses could work.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

    Serini may have told all of the others that their defenses were so great she wanted them to contribute, leading to a gate with all combined defenses. However, this seems a bit unlikely given that Soon's gate's big thing was its order of paladins and it's unlikely that there are any paladins or any other particularly honorable sorts camping out around the gate.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Protections of Kraagar's Tomb Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    In a way. But in a way, also not.

    Say you've got something extremely valuable, such as a hugeass diamond. Where do you put it? In the big fancy expensive safe you've got, or elsewhere?

    Sure, if the safe's a ploy, you can trick would-be thieves and keep the prize safe from them. But if you do that, then it remains that the prize is hidden in a location with far lesser protections, which then increases the odds of someone finding it my sheer luck. Do you really want to place it somewhere where a large beast traveling through could accidentally break it, and all of existence along with it? All while you've spent billions (figurative) for this outerwordly safe that's not actually protecting anything?

    The shell game con makes sense because it costs just about nothing. But there comes a point of diminishing returns, where if you spend too much into the diversion, it stops making sense to not actually use it.
    I'm unclear what the "also not" is, then, since this is exactly what I'm saying.

    I also remember these same arguments being made about Girard's Gate not actually being inside the pyramid, and the same reasoning applies here.

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