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    Default Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Admission: I never got into SCII, despite having had a copy since the game came out. I played a bit with a friend (who loves it) but base building RTS have never been my thing. I prefer Company of Heroes or Dawn of War II, and have been locked into the same old RTS games for years.

    Then he invited me to play coop a month ago, and I was hooked. The commanders give such a wide game play area that you can go from playing the zombie apocalypse to playing as a tiny band of mercenaries to playing two different versions of Godzilla, each with totally different strategies and game styles. It is my favorite RTS since the original Company of Heroes.

    My mains are Stukov and Dehaka, I have a level 10 Swann and I'm going to level up Abathur after that. Leveling commanders are my bag, followed by free stuff (Swann gets lazzzer drill and Stukov gets undead swarms.)

    Anyone else playing lately?

    Edit: My code is Tvtyrant#1128
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-10-18 at 12:37 AM.
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I love coop myself. The most common commander I play is Han and Horner right now. In general im a protoss main, but a lot of them are macro commanders, and that's less my preference.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I love coop myself. The most common commander I play is Han and Horner right now. In general im a protoss main, but a lot of them are macro commanders, and that's less my preference.
    I have a hard time with Protoss commanders. It feels much more unforgiving, like if I lose a unit then I get set back a minute or more. I don't necessarily always want to go Mutalisk Dehaka (where the rules are made up and your decisions don't matter) but I like some room to lose a unit and recover.

    H&H is my favorite ally to have, you are doing Kerrigan's work. Having mines softening everything for me and having a decent early game so I don't have to carry the first 10 minutes? Amazing.
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I play tons of it still, it's my go-to game when I just want to unwind and can't think of anything else to play. I've gotten comfortable with every commander on Brutal except Kerrigan (I'm just not a fan of her playstyle and microing the Nydus worms) and Stetmann (I really, really hate being nagged constantly about stetellites and managing Egonergy.)

    I feel you on Protoss being tricky, for a long time I thought I just wasn't able to learn Karax, but something clicked and now I can get Carriers on the field very quickly. Not as fast as Fenix of course (nobody but H&H can field air as fast as he can) but still, pretty quickly. I've also gotten much better with Vorazun.


    Favorite commanders (i.e. I can easily beat every mission type and even carry with these) are probably Tychus, Abathur, Stukov, H&H, Fenix, Zeratul, Vorazun, and Dehaka.

    Commanders I enjoy playing but am not the best with include Karax, Swann, Raynor, Artanis, Zagara, Nova, and Alarak. Tougher missions like Malwarfare or Dead of Night might be a gamble with these.

    Commanders I dislike playing and might need a carry on are Kerrigan and Stetmann.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-10-16 at 04:06 PM.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Despite SC2 being probably my most played game, I never got into the coop.

    Partially because I dislike playing with other people. But mostly I just found the commanders far too limited. At least when the game was released they each had about 1/3 of the units and you have to unlock the units to get you up to like half. So each commander just felt way less interesting and complex to play on an individual level. Each only feels like they have maybe 2 possibly 3 strategies when the standard three races had way more. And to get those more interesting strategies you had to grind with the weak stuff just to eventually get the interesting stuff. And honestly I don't like grinding.

    One thing I did like though was how each mission was different. If they could have released a single-op game that just let you pick a co-op style mission and pick one of the base races to do it yourself I think I'd play nothing but that for hours on end.

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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I believe there's a mod that lets you use the co-op commanders in a regular vs. AI game. I haven't found it, but I would love to give that a try. Some of them would be extremely OP though (e.g. pick Alarak, send probe to enemy, build pylon, overcharge it while warping in and you can wipe out their workforce a few seconds into the game.)

    Such a mod would let you practice the commanders on your own time without needing other people, but genuinely - just play on lower difficulties, especially if you're decent at Starcraft in general, you'll pick up the commanders quickly doing that and nobody will be expecting you to be a seasoned pro.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-10-16 at 06:10 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Despite SC2 being probably my most played game, I never got into the coop.

    Partially because I dislike playing with other people. But mostly I just found the commanders far too limited. At least when the game was released they each had about 1/3 of the units and you have to unlock the units to get you up to like half. So each commander just felt way less interesting and complex to play on an individual level. Each only feels like they have maybe 2 possibly 3 strategies when the standard three races had way more. And to get those more interesting strategies you had to grind with the weak stuff just to eventually get the interesting stuff. And honestly I don't like grinding.

    One thing I did like though was how each mission was different. If they could have released a single-op game that just let you pick a co-op style mission and pick one of the base races to do it yourself I think I'd play nothing but that for hours on end.
    There are a lot of commanders though, and they play nothing like each other. The amount of options is pretty high for none-Stukov players. I'll grant that Stukov is either going bunkers and tanks or multi-barracks marine spam, but the majority of commanders have plenty of options even if there is a "best" one.
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I played quite a bit of co-op, not very much lately just because its so mind-numbingly easy as power creep kept going up.

    About the only real challenge was the brutations, and they were gimmicky rather than really HARD, and basically came in 3 modes:

    1) If you have a good partner you win
    2) If you have a good partner AND the right commander comp you win
    3) You win if RNG decides to let you win

    I forget exactly, I think I got to the mid level 100ish before I kind of got tired and quit.

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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I believe there's a mod that lets you use the co-op commanders in a regular vs. AI game. I haven't found it, but I would love to give that a try. Some of them would be extremely OP though (e.g. pick Alarak, send probe to enemy, build pylon, overcharge it while warping in and you can wipe out their workforce a few seconds into the game.)

    Such a mod would let you practice the commanders on your own time without needing other people, but genuinely - just play on lower difficulties, especially if you're decent at Starcraft in general, you'll pick up the commanders quickly doing that and nobody will be expecting you to be a seasoned pro.
    That mod sounds like a lot of fun. Play against three computers so it is harder to just rush them and chew up their guys.

    Anyone have a clue how to play Stettman? Every attempt I make goes horribly.
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    That mod sounds like a lot of fun. Play against three computers so it is harder to just rush them and chew up their guys.

    Anyone have a clue how to play Stettman? Every attempt I make goes horribly.
    Play him like army Kerrigan. Start with zerglings, and then transition into a tech army based on the enemy comp. Unfortunately, his leveling process is a little painful, as some rather useful QoL upgrades come in later than I would like, and Super Gary is a complete game changer that should definitely come earlier.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Play him like army Kerrigan. Start with zerglings, and then transition into a tech army based on the enemy comp. Unfortunately, his leveling process is a little painful, as some rather useful QoL upgrades come in later than I would like, and Super Gary is a complete game changer that should definitely come earlier.
    Seems like good advice, I'll give it a shot.

    What level does he start coming together?
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Play him like army Kerrigan. Start with zerglings, and then transition into a tech army based on the enemy comp. Unfortunately, his leveling process is a little painful, as some rather useful QoL upgrades come in later than I would like, and Super Gary is a complete game changer that should definitely come earlier.
    Agreed, he's basically Kerrigan with more healing and superspeed (no teleportation though). Mass Hydras (+Broodlords) with mass zerglings as your mineral dump and maybe a couple of ultras can handle almost everything, and of course you want to use Lurkers against infested missions like Dead of Night. His hydras hit air especially hard with the rockets upgrade so you won't have problems with most aerial comps. Remember too that a lot of objectives count as air units also (void shards, void thrashers, moebius hybrid, disruption towers etc) so rocket hydras will cream those.

    You can also use him as a poor man's Zagara but I wouldn't recommend it, he lacks her discounts and ultrafast production. It's a nice way to mix things up though if you're looking for a challenge.

    The other comp I've seen work really well with him is mass Infestors. You have to have pretty good micro to keep your Egonergy up and keep them out of harm's way while they summon piles and piles of roach eggs, but if you do it right it can obliterate pretty much anything without you losing a single unit. His Infestors actually had to get nerfed shortly after he came out, and they're still crazy good.

    In all cases, being able to "stance dance" with this stetzones is key. In general, use H.U.G.S. (green) to heal your units during a fight, J.U.I.C.E. (purple) afterward to refill egonergy if your comp uses that, and F.A.S.T. (blue) all other times to boost your economy and your ally's as well as replenish your army quickly, but don't be afraid to use speed in a fight to reposition your entire army quickly or a bit of purple to squeeze out a bit of extra energy for you or your ally.

    He partners particularly well with commanders that have little healing and slow armies - Han & Horner, Fenix, and Zeratul are good examples. The first two of those also cover for his relatively weak air.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-10-17 at 02:26 PM.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Seems like good advice, I'll give it a shot.

    What level does he start coming together?
    Once you hit 7, that's the first important milestone because it dramatically reduces the limits on your field coverage. More stetelites, more fields, more mobility, healing and energy regen for everybody. 9 is another big one, because it makes important upgrades more available, and means, among other things, that you don't need double evo/spire for weapon and armor upgrades.

    Unfortunately, you really need to hit 15 for super gary before everything plays out the way I think they really expected it to. Until then, regular Gary kind of hovers over the line between asset and liability.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2019-10-17 at 02:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I found the level 7 upgrade (Lair/Hive decreases Stetellite cooldown and increases max charges) made a huge difference; before that I found it very difficult to get Stetellite coverage where I needed it (except on Temple and similar defensive missions), afterwards I could generally keep up and expand to the map objectives. I still don't especially care for his playstyle, but he got a lot more functional after that.

    My favorites remain Zagara and Abathur. I don't really like hero units which are super-powerful but need micromanaging, like Kerrigan and Alarak, but Zagara plays a very effective support role for her army, and there's something very satisfying about sending out wave after wave of Zerg suicide units to crash and die against the enemy. Lost my entire army? Don't care, as long as my infrastructure is intact I'll have a new one in 30 seconds. Aberrations and corruptors aren't flashy, but they provide a solid core if your ally needs help mopping up whatever's left when the banelings and scourges are gone.

    Abathur is kind of the opposite - getting wiped out will hurt a lot - but his late-game deathball is great, and I like most of his units so he's got a bit more variety. (Swarm Hosts are the exception, I like them in theory but the time limit most objectives enforce keeps them from being terribly useful.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    He partners particularly well with commanders that have little healing and slow armies - Han & Horner, Fenix, and Zeratul are good examples. The first two of those also cover for his relatively weak air.
    He also pairs interestingly with commanders who have powerful energy-based units. Vipers with functionally unlimited energy are very, very silly; I suspect High Templar and Ascendants are also.
    Last edited by The_Snark; 2019-10-17 at 02:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Yeah, grit your teeth and max him out - play on Hard if Brutal is too annoying. For a lot of the commanders, you don't really get an accurate feel for how they truly play until the capstone, and he is one of those. Super Gary makes his stetzone placement much easier for example, because Gary can generate one so taht you're not forced to daisy-chain all the way from your start.

    That reminds me, Stukov and Alarak are also good partners for him, because they can infest or supercharge his stetellites respectively, letting you use those abilities offensively more easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    9 is another big one, because it makes important upgrades more available, and means, among other things, that you don't need double evo/spire for weapon and armor upgrades.
    This is a big deal in particular - his army needs to be upgraded to be worth a damn, for most of them the egonergy abilities are locked behind an upgrade of some kind and are a huge part of their overall effectiveness. Gary can't just carry his troops like a souped-up Kerrigan or Dehaka can, especially if you're not 15 yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    I still don't especially care for his playstyle, but he got a lot more functional after that.
    This is more or less my summary of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    Abathur is kind of the opposite - getting wiped out will hurt a lot - but his late-game deathball is great, and I like most of his units so he's got a bit more variety. (Swarm Hosts are the exception, I like them in theory but the time limit most objectives enforce keeps them from being terribly useful.)
    I find this interesting because I almost never see Abathur get wiped out once he gets going. Your main goal with him is to get a Brutalisk or Leviathan as fast as possible, but once you do, very little can stand in your way.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-10-17 at 02:45 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Brutalisks with healing are like giant hp walls. I had a Tychus ally who picked Nikara when I was abathur, I don't think I lost a unit the whole game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I find this interesting because I almost never see Abathur get wiped out once he gets going. Your main goal with him is to get a Brutalisk or Leviathan as fast as possible, but once you do, very little can stand in your way.
    Oh yeah, it doesn't happen often at all - if I lose with him, it's usually either before I can get properly going, or due to some gimmicky mutation that can't be brute-forced (Polarity, propagators, the annoying hidden-objective one that's currently up). It's just a devastating setback if it does happen, because not only is that army really expensive, you can't just rebuild the lost biomass. Nova has a similar dynamic, although I find her army is a lot more fragile (probably because she doesn't have built-in lifesteal and a global healing button).

    Brutalisks and Leviathans are definitely good, but I actually find they're just the icing on the cake a lot of the time. Roaches are a good mineral sink, what with the debuff they apply. Devourers will annihilate pretty much any air-based army. And his mutalisks are amazing once upgraded and buffed; lifesteal and increased health helps offset their fragility, the bounce upgrade makes them good against lots of weaker units, and the +armored upgrade makes them great against large strong units like hybrid. Thors are just about the only thing that will make a dent in a mutalisk deathball.
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Yeah, grit your teeth and max him out - play on Hard if Brutal is too annoying. For a lot of the commanders, you don't really get an accurate feel for how they truly play until the capstone, and he is one of those. Super Gary makes his stetzone placement much easier for example, because Gary can generate one so taht you're not forced to daisy-chain all the way from your start.

    That reminds me, Stukov and Alarak are also good partners for him, because they can infest or supercharge his stetellites respectively, letting you use those abilities offensively more easily.



    This is a big deal in particular - his army needs to be upgraded to be worth a damn, for most of them the egonergy abilities are locked behind an upgrade of some kind and are a huge part of their overall effectiveness. Gary can't just carry his troops like a souped-up Kerrigan or Dehaka can, especially if you're not 15 yet.



    This is more or less my summary of him.



    I find this interesting because I almost never see Abathur get wiped out once he gets going. Your main goal with him is to get a Brutalisk or Leviathan as fast as possible, but once you do, very little can stand in your way.
    You can have a satelite that passively produces zombie bugs? That seems like the kind of thing no one does intentionally but is hilarious. Imagine a satelite that rains space bugs down on the ground as it goes overhead in any horror movie.

    Stettman seems like more trouble then he is worth then. Kerrigan already annoys me with the having to make worms everywhere to move, taking it up a notch seems like it is not for me. I'll probably level him when I am done with everyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I believe there's a mod that lets you use the co-op commanders in a regular vs. AI game. I haven't found it, but I would love to give that a try. Some of them would be extremely OP though (e.g. pick Alarak, send probe to enemy, build pylon, overcharge it while warping in and you can wipe out their workforce a few seconds into the game.)
    Belatedly: there was an April Fool's mutator a while back which turned the game into a 1v1 match rather than co-op. I thought Zagara's fast economy and instant swarmlings would make her broken, but it turns out Alarak trumped that - the overcharge made attacking him early on impossible, and Alarak himself had basically no counters. His spammable area attack annihilates Zerglings or anyone else who relies on lots of small units early on, his charge move means he's good at taking out enemy heroes and valuable units, and unlike other heroes you can't focus him down because he literally can't die until the rest of his army is dead.

    (Of course, it being April Fools, whoever killed their enemy actually lost the match. But after getting credit for beating it once I think people liked playing to win anyway.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    Oh yeah, it doesn't happen often at all - if I lose with him, it's usually either before I can get properly going, or due to some gimmicky mutation that can't be brute-forced (Polarity, propagators, the annoying hidden-objective one that's currently up). It's just a devastating setback if it does happen, because not only is that army really expensive, you can't just rebuild the lost biomass. Nova has a similar dynamic, although I find her army is a lot more fragile (probably because she doesn't have built-in lifesteal and a global healing button).
    Nova could definitely use a buff. Top bar or not, her army reposition is the slooowest cooldown one in the game. Meanwhile you have folks like Tychus that can teleport home, take care of an attack wave, teleport to a bonus objective, deal with that, and then teleport back to the front line to resume whatever, all in less than a minute. Tychus (and H&H, and hell Artanis and Karax) also get far more nukes per game than she does. And good luck healing her expensive-ass army if they take out your Ravens.

    The key to using her well is using her airstrikes, explosive drone and nuke offensively so that you can soften the enemy up as much as possible before moving in, but newer commanders are so fast that it becomes obsolete. Like, is standing there while she pilots her little drone in so she can more accurately paint a nuke target even necessary when Horner punches a much bigger hole with Fleet Maneuvers, or Dehaka does with Dakrun, or Zeratul does with Avatar of Essence and a Legion etc.?

    The one kudos I'll give her unequivocally is that her ghosts are absolute bonkers at taking down all varieties of hybrid, but they're insanely expensive and struggle against mechanical foes.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    Brutalisks and Leviathans are definitely good, but I actually find they're just the icing on the cake a lot of the time. Roaches are a good mineral sink, what with the debuff they apply. Devourers will annihilate pretty much any air-based army. And his mutalisks are amazing once upgraded and buffed; lifesteal and increased health helps offset their fragility, the bounce upgrade makes them good against lots of weaker units, and the +armored upgrade makes them great against large strong units like hybrid. Thors are just about the only thing that will make a dent in a mutalisk deathball.
    Agreed, though I just send in the Leviathans first and my mutalisks never get touched.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    You can have a satelite that passively produces zombie bugs? That seems like the kind of thing no one does intentionally but is hilarious. Imagine a satelite that rains space bugs down on the ground as it goes overhead in any horror movie.

    Stettman seems like more trouble then he is worth then. Kerrigan already annoys me with the having to make worms everywhere to move, taking it up a notch seems like it is not for me. I'll probably level him when I am done with everyone else.
    Yes, and the funny part is that the broodlings spawn in the air and hurl themselves to the ground. So yes, you end up with raining bugs

    If you're not done leveling more fun peeps I would definitely go with that.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-10-17 at 03:49 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I disagree that Nova needs a buff. Her army has some of the strongest raw power in the game. her only vulnerability is that if she loses that army for whatever reason, she has by far the hardest time rebuilding.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I disagree that Nova needs a buff. Her army has some of the strongest raw power in the game. her only vulnerability is that if she loses that army for whatever reason, she has by far the hardest time rebuilding.
    I didn't mean a buff in power, I mean in cooldowns - both for her army and her top bar. Her abilities and production were powerful when they debuted but they've since been eclipsed. They buffed Fenix and he has since completely outstripped her too.

    Also, her turrets are godawful.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I didn't mean a buff in power, I mean in cooldowns - both for her army and her top bar. Her abilities and production were powerful when they debuted but they've since been eclipsed. They buffed Fenix and he has since completely outstripped her too.

    Also, her turrets are godawful.
    Unless youre playing Swann or Karax, your turrets are there to kill enemy ghosts and make your base look pretty.

    And unlike some other commanders, Nova has both powerful calldowns and a strong deathball army. most commanders only get one or the other. And I will happly cop to Dehaka being too strong, but that's a problem with Dehaka, not Nova.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Nova could definitely use a buff. Top bar or not, her army reposition is the slooowest cooldown one in the game. Meanwhile you have folks like Tychus that can teleport home, take care of an attack wave, teleport to a bonus objective, deal with that, and then teleport back to the front line to resume whatever, all in less than a minute. Tychus (and H&H, and hell Artanis and Karax) also get far more nukes per game than she does. And good luck healing her expensive-ass army if they take out your Ravens.

    The key to using her well is using her airstrikes, explosive drone and nuke offensively so that you can soften the enemy up as much as possible before moving in, but newer commanders are so fast that it becomes obsolete. Like, is standing there while she pilots her little drone in so she can more accurately paint a nuke target even necessary when Horner punches a much bigger hole with Fleet Maneuvers, or Dehaka does with Dakrun, or Zeratul does with Avatar of Essence and a Legion etc.?

    The one kudos I'll give her unequivocally is that her ghosts are absolute bonkers at taking down all varieties of hybrid, but they're insanely expensive and struggle against mechanical foes.



    Agreed, though I just send in the Leviathans first and my mutalisks never get touched.



    Yes, and the funny part is that the broodlings spawn in the air and hurl themselves to the ground. So yes, you end up with raining bugs

    If you're not done leveling more fun peeps I would definitely go with that.
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Nova could definitely use a buff. Top bar or not, her army reposition is the slooowest cooldown one in the game. Meanwhile you have folks like Tychus that can teleport home, take care of an attack wave, teleport to a bonus objective, deal with that, and then teleport back to the front line to resume whatever, all in less than a minute. Tychus (and H&H, and hell Artanis and Karax) also get far more nukes per game than she does. And good luck healing her expensive-ass army if they take out your Ravens.
    I mean, I think if you use Tychus as the standard for cross-map transportation - or just about anything else - then your standards are going to be a little skewed. But possibly. I haven't played Nova enough to really have an opinion whether she could use a buff in general, but there's definitely been some power creep over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Unless youre playing Swann or Karax, your turrets are there to kill enemy ghosts and make your base look pretty.
    ... or Zeratul, I'm told, though I haven't played him myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    ... or Zeratul, I'm told, though I haven't played him myself.
    Its certainly possible to play him that way, but that's less a function of his turrets being exceptionally good and more a function of him having minerals for weeks to spend on them on top of his army.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    I used to enjoy watching this guy Loko play on youtube. Was fun seeing the odd strategies he and his buddies would come up with. Also fun seeing how fast he could get smashed by a bad set of brutal mutation missions. I think my favorite was one of those propagator missions where he played raynor, seeded the map with spider mines, then learned the hard way that spider mines can trigger the propagator effect. All of a sudden near the end of the game the map started getting swamped because stun effect plus turns into enemy upon being touched = bad way to go.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Its certainly possible to play him that way, but that's less a function of his turrets being exceptionally good and more a function of him having minerals for weeks to spend on them on top of his army.
    Nova also has "minerals for weeks", she quite literally throws her excess minerals at the enemy's face. Her turrets still suck ass, and they even have an upgrade!

    And yes, Zeratul's turrets are very, very good. Between his AoE+Snare monoliths, his energizers to heal them all, and the bonkers Shade Projection ability, he is a very capable defense commander, and he's actually one of the few besides Karax and Swann who can skip an army entirely. One good strategy is to protect the entrances with them, and have a battery of turrets towards the center that you hotkey for projection purposes, and astrally move those center turrets to bolster any one of the base entrances that is being hit

    And while I'm at it, Tychus' turrets are actually very good too - it's just that upgrading the Devils is so much better (and so much more expensive) that by the time you're done the match is usually over anyway. (Plus one of them makes turrets, so it's not like you're missing out!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    And unlike some other commanders, Nova has both powerful calldowns and a strong deathball army. most commanders only get one or the other. And I will happly cop to Dehaka being too strong, but that's a problem with Dehaka, not Nova.
    Dehaka isn't too strong though, there are plenty of other commanders on his level in terms of being able to roll into an enemy base without needing their ally present to support. Even Artanis can do it if you have Bombardment up and are countering the enemy (e.g. not massing Tempests when you're up against Liberators or Scourges.) And again, Nova's strength isn't actually the issue, it's more of a usability thing. Her calldowns are a lot slower because of the way they work - either needing a fairly squishy Nova herself to manually aim them, or being very narrow in scope while having both a long cooldown and a hefty cost (the airstrike).

    Compare to the other two nukes - the Odin and the Space Platform reallocation. Both have HALF(!) the cooldown of her nuke, and both can be dropped literally anywhere on the map you have vision, have no casting time, and can't be stopped from going off no matter how thick Amon's resistance is in that area.

    I used to like Nova a lot, I really did, but ever since they made Tychus I find myself struggling with reasons to consciously pick her. He does almost everything she does, better.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    I mean, I think if you use Tychus as the standard for cross-map transportation - or just about anything else - then your standards are going to be a little skewed. But possibly. I haven't played Nova enough to really have an opinion whether she could use a buff in general, but there's definitely been some power creep over time.
    I'm using Tychus as the comparison point because they occupy a similar thematic niche, i.e. being an elite black ops squad with super-expensive gear as opposed to a traditional army. Y'know, the kind of group you'd want to be able to move around quickly

    But it's not just Tychus either; Fenix, Vorazun, Kerrigan, Zeratul, Raynor (air), Abathur (ground SH), all of them can teleport their entire army more often than she can and faster than she can. Even Swann can do it better than her if you take the time to build a few Hercules.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm using Tychus as the comparison point because they occupy a similar thematic niche, i.e. being an elite black ops squad with super-expensive gear as opposed to a traditional army. Y'know, the kind of group you'd want to be able to move around quickly
    True, just noting that Tychus is kind of ridiculous in general.
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    Default Re: Starcraft II Coop: The game inside the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    True, just noting that Tychus is kind of ridiculous in general.
    Yeah, this. Tychus has the heightest floor of the commanders, even if you take the worst of his mercs he is pretty decent.

    I believe the heighest ceiling are kerrigan and Vorazun based on guides. Watching a good Kerrigan player makes me feel like a scrub.
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