OOTS #1171 - The Discussion Thread

[Squire Doodad]

Hilgya: a true pillar of faith in the everyday dwarven community.

[Rrmcklin]

I also want to tear down any arguments that Hilgya leaving is because she's a caring mother. Her reasoning is not that she's afraid for Kudzu's safety, it's that she doesn't care enough to keep trying at this point. If it were a safety thing she'd say she'd be leaving immediately, but she didn't - she said she'd leave if she has any sign that they failed and it seems like the world is about to end.

Hilgya's first and foremost concern is her own whims. Anything else can only be a distant second, including Kudzu's safety, as her previous behavior has already made apparent.

[Squire Doodad]

I also want to tear down any arguments that Hilgya leaving is because she's a caring mother. Her reasoning is not that she's afraid for Kudzu's safety, it's that she doesn't care enough to keep trying at this point. If it were a safety thing she'd say she'd be leaving immediately, but she didn't - she said she'd leave if she has any sign that they failed and it seems like the world is about to end.

Hilgya's first and foremost concern is her own whims. Anything else can only be a distant second, including Kudzu's safety, as her previous behavior has already made apparent.

She's leaving to go grab Kudzu because she cares about Kudzu, at least more than this whole kerfuffle about the Council of Clans and the end of the world and stuff. She's planning on plane shifting out the minute things turn south because of her own whims.

[Rrmcklin]

She's leaving to go grab Kudzu because she cares about Kudzu, at least more than this whole kerfuffle about the Council of Clans and the end of the world and stuff. She's planning on plane shifting out the minute things turn south because of her own whims.

I didn't say she didn't care at all, I said she doesn't care about him as much as herself. Hence why I said "distant second", it inherently implies the character can care about other things, but has something else they will absolutely put first.

Going to get him costs her nothing, but as far as she knows leaving could make it more likely the world is destroyed.

[brian 333]

I still expect something from Hilgya. Perhaps:

"You're really going to trust Cousin Durkon not to screw things up?"

She is standing right next to a bard in that panel.

However, I love how The Giant is ramping up the anticipation with every page. G. R. R. Martin needs to study this for his own work.

[5crownik007]

When you're so cool that you continue fighting while blind and refuse medical treatment due to turn economy.

Also, I feel like every time Hilgya is on screen, an absolute storm of argument will erupt on forum.

[Squire Doodad]

I didn't say she didn't care at all, I said she doesn't care about him as much as herself. Hence why I said "distant second", it inherently implies the character can care about other things, but has something else they will absolutely put first.

Going to get him costs her nothing, but as far as she knows leaving could make it more likely the world is destroyed.

Hm, fair enough.

Side note: I'm pretty sure that Hilgya's idea that working as a cleric of Loki and being dishonorable will, in fact, get her past the Hel gate. However, what she isn't realizing is that the normal alignment system is still in place once she does, so unless clerics of a religion is sent to the relevant god's domain automatically Hilgya will still not end up where she wants to. I'm guessing the reason for the confusion is that so many dwarves are in the upper left corner of the alignment chart that they assume once someone gets past Hel they automatically go to Vahalla.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, I feel like every time Hilgya is on screen, an absolute storm of argument will erupt on forum.

This isn't even in the top 15 Hilgya arguments, never mind the top 50 forum arguments. Miko and Familicide are both more contentious than Hilgya.

Sigdi, however, has been near-universally praised. I for one expect a Giant sigh of relief in this book's commentary for having finally created a non-contentious female supporting character.

[zimmerwald1915]

so unless clerics of a religion is sent to the relevant god's domain automatically

If it's not automatic it's close enough to not matter. How else do you explain Durkon going to Valhalla instead of Celestia?

Then again, nothing says that Loki actually has a cool upstairs room in Valhalla. His domain could be on the Plane of Fire, or Pandaemonium as mentioned upthread.

[5crownik007]

This isn't even in the top 15 Hilgya arguments, never mind the top 50 forum arguments. Miko and Familicide are both more contentious than Hilgya.

True, maybe size of the argument is proportional to how long Hilgya is visible. Interesting thought.

[Dion]

I’m pretty sure Hilgya’s actions in this comic are the absolute definition of dishonorable.

The Hilgya ending I want: the death worm kills Hilgya as she’s walking away. Hilgya appears in Hel, in Hel and Loki’s presence. Loki ignores her and leaves Hel without her.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, if we're talking alignment, what does Loki's stated philosophy and his pride in Hilgya embodying it say about them?

[Kantaki]

Well, if we're talking alignment, what does Loki's stated philosophy and his pride in Hilgya embodying it say about them?

A strongly Chaotic alignment.
Most likely non-good.

[Dion]

Well, if we're talking alignment, what does Loki's stated philosophy and his pride in Hilgya embodying it say about them?

It says that Loki in OotS-verse is chaotic evil, and his clerics are also chaotic evil.

[Psychronia]

See, Hel? If Loki got mad at Hilgya for that, then he would be a hypocrite.

Hmm. Based on that philosophy, I guess Loki's alignment would have to be True Neutral. He's Lawful and Chaotic depending on what's convenient and morality has more or less no bearing on decisions.

Yeah...I'll miss Kudzu, but won't miss Hilgya if she's exiting stage left. I don't hate her, but...this is enough.

[Ruck]

Uncertain. It simply seems unlikely that Rich would bring the character in for one spell and a throwaway gag, especially one with so much unfinished narrative business. Hilgya’s whole shtick is her grudge against her clan; it’s hard to imagine she won’t come into play during a meeting of said clans.

What form the gambit takes, I don’t know. Maybe Loki told her to walk once the gate was breached, so she could return when the guards’ focus was elsewhere. Maybe she’s secretly going to use her plane shift to rescue the not-Thad guy, but doesn’t want anybody to know what she’s up to.

"One spell and a throwaway gag"? She reappeared 65 strips ago. And she's the mother of Durkon's child, which seems in and of itself like a major point, since I'm assuming that's not what you meant by "throwaway gag."

Most people aren't good at tactical planning and scheming while murderously angry. All her simple first plan hints at is that she's not good at keeping her emotions under control. That, and a certain fondness for fire, which makes sense, seeing as it seems to be Loki's element.

What makes you think her first plan was concocted in the heat of the moment?

I still expect something from Hilgya. Perhaps:

"You're really going to trust Cousin Durkon not to screw things up?"

She is standing right next to a bard in that panel.

I don't understand; are you implying Hilgya and Durkon are cousins?

[DaOldeWolf]

When you're so cool that you continue fighting while blind and refuse medical treatment due to turn economy.

Also, I feel like every time Hilgya is on screen, an absolute storm of argument will erupt on forum.

This isn't even in the top 15 Hilgya arguments, never mind the top 50 forum arguments. Miko and Familicide are both more contentious than Hilgya.

Sigdi, however, has been near-universally praised. I for one expect a Giant sigh of relief in this book's commentary for having finally created a non-contentious female supporting character.

I agree with Zimmer here. I would even dare to say that Celia and Andi created just as if not more heated debates.

[Squire Doodad]

I don't understand; are you implying Hilgya and Durkon are cousins?

Cousin Durkon refers to Durkon as being the cousin of the speaker, not Hilgya. The Thundershield/everyone else Clan is so big that odds are everyone can just say "Cousin X" and they will be close enough.

[brian 333]

I don't understand; are you implying Hilgya and Durkon are cousins?

No. I'm implying the bard beside Hilgya is Durkon's cousin.

This can't be Hilgya's finale because she will be needed to convince Redcloak to help seal the gate with just a tiny nineth level spell slot bit of purple quiddity.

Or I could be wrong again. (If I had a quatloo for guessing wrong what comes next in this comic I'd have a lot of quatloos.)

[The MunchKING]

"One spell and a throwaway gag"? She reappeared 65 strips ago. And she's the mother of Durkon's child, which seems in and of itself like a major point, since I'm assuming that's not what you meant by "throwaway gag."

I think they meant sticking around for the attack on the Council rather than just leaving after the Durkon thing was done.

I guess to read it more literally it would have to be after the Sigdi bonds with Kudzu thing too.

[Dion]

This can't be Hilgya's finale because she will be needed to convince Redcloak to help seal the gate

I can see this happening.

Hilgya: Just do anything you feel like doing Redcloak. And if it’s too hard, give up. After all, you can just planeshift out as your world and everything you know is snuffed out of existence, while your god slowly dies of starvation. That’s exactly what I’m going to do!

Redcloak: ... ummm.... remind me again what the other option was? Something about a 9th level spell?

[Squire Doodad]

This can't be Hilgya's finale because she will be needed to convince Redcloak to help seal the gate with just a tiny nineth level spell slot bit of purple quiddity.

Having an evil party member with a >10 INT and WIS score may help getting Reddie to start negotiating. But it really shouldn't be Hilgya, Durkon is already the designated candidate as per Word of Thor.

[Keltest]

Having an evil party member with a >10 INT and WIS score may help getting Reddie to start negotiating. But it really shouldn't be Hilgya, Durkon is already the designated candidate as per Word of Thor.

Also, Hilgya is very clearly not at all invested in having this particular world survive, and since she's a compulsive contrarian, even Loki outright ordering her to help is unlikely to produce positive results.

[brian 333]

True, but TDO hates Thor. A cleric of Loki and former ally has a better chance to get the conversation started.

[Rrmcklin]

No. I'm implying the bard beside Hilgya is Durkon's cousin.

This can't be Hilgya's finale because she will be needed to convince Redcloak to help seal the gate with just a tiny nineth level spell slot bit of purple quiddity.

Or I could be wrong again. (If I had a quatloo for guessing wrong what comes next in this comic I'd have a lot of quatloos.)

Why would Hilgya be mandated for something so important, that has also been explicitly tasked to one of the main characters?

[The_Weirdo]

I also want to tear down any arguments that Hilgya leaving is because she's a caring mother. Her reasoning is not that she's afraid for Kudzu's safety, it's that she doesn't care enough to keep trying at this point. If it were a safety thing she'd say she'd be leaving immediately, but she didn't - she said she'd leave if she has any sign that they failed and it seems like the world is about to end.

Hilgya's first and foremost concern is her own whims. Anything else can only be a distant second, including Kudzu's safety, as her previous behavior has already made apparent.

That, folks, is what we in the business call headcanon...

[Keltest]

That, folks, is what we in the business call headcanon...

The alternative is that she doesn't understand that battles are dangerous, which would make her dumber than Elan.

[The_Weirdo]

The alternative is that she doesn't understand that battles are dangerous, which would make her dumber than Elan.

Her justification for taking Kudzu into battle is as follows: she had a bunch of abjurations on herself and on him. Also, if he died in battle, he'd die an "honorable" death.

Abjurations do not protect people from the end of the world. And the death being dishonorable is kind of the POINT for Hel here.

[Keltest]

Her justification for taking Kudzu into battle is as follows: she had a bunch of abjurations on herself and on him. Also, if he died in battle, he'd die an "honorable" death.

Abjurations do not protect people from the end of the world. And the death being dishonorable is kind of the POINT for Hel here.

Which would have been an excellent reason for her to bug out first thing after preparing her spells, or even before Durkon got resurrected if she had plane shift available. You will note that she did not do those things. As for Kudzu, not being in a battle at all is significantly safer than being in one covered in abjurations while strapped to a high priority target.

[Rrmcklin]

That, folks, is what we in the business call headcanon...

Yes, it's "headcanon" that not taking a baby into active battle is more safe and shows more concern for their well-being than the alternative. Oh, wait, no it isn't, it's just basic logic.

Edit: And Hilgya herself never said anything along the facts of "if he dies, at least it's honorable". I think that's ascribing more awareness to her than she's due, but funnily enough also would make her look bad if she tried to use that justification. Just as it makes any one who tries to defend her look bad.