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    Default The First Order vs the Avengers

    This would be the First Order led by Kylo Ren (Ben Solo) vs the Avengers from the Mavel Comic movies. It struck me how the last two Star Wars movies were like Star Wars. So this is a discussion about a hypothetical crossover.

    Would this make a good movie? Would it work better if the Avengers were in the Star Wars Universe, or should we bring the First Order and a number of Star Destroyers into the Mavel Universe? What do you think would happen? Would the forces be balanced?

    The First Order has advanced technology and the Dark Side of the Force, the Marvel side has more superheroes. Who has the advantage here?

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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    It struck me how the last two Star Wars movies were like Star Wars.
    Amusingly, a great deal of complaints are that the last two Star Wars movies are not like Star Wars.

    I assume you mean it struck you how the last two Star Wars movies were like Marvel movies, in which case I agree.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Starkiller destroys earth from halfway across the galaxy. The End.

    Otherwise, it would be something like TFA, where the Avengers infiltrate before it fires.

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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    This would be the First Order led by Kylo Ren (Ben Solo) vs the Avengers from the Mavel Comic movies. It struck me how the last two Star Wars movies were like Star Wars. So this is a discussion about a hypothetical crossover.
    I’m pretty sure very few people we surprised by how Star Wars- like the two Star Wars movies were. I personally tend to talk about the departures but to each his own

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    Would this make a good movie? Would it work better if the Avengers were in the Star Wars Universe, or should we bring the First Order and a number of Star Destroyers into the Mavel Universe? What do you think would happen? Would the forces be balanced?
    An Avengers/Star Wars crossover is the sort of thing fans, and only the fans, have been speculating about for quite awhile. I recently saw an article about how its greatest proof is...that Carol Danvers’ cat is named “Chewie” in the comics after Chewbacca, but is named “Goose” in the movie.

    The theory is the cat must have a different name because Star Wars isn’t a movie in the MCU, its all actually real! Hence, the Avengers and Star Wars will meet!

    The very idea of that movie makes about as much sense as the evidence that Disney has been planning for it all along.

    Star Wars takes place “a long long time ago in a Galaxy Far Far away” presumably long and far enough that it shouldn’t normally interact with the Marvel universe. That and, the technology, the powers, the setting, all of that work quite differently.

    Sure you can mash up any two franchises you want (DC and Marvel for example) come up with a contrivance and these sorts of stories have sold well and even been made into movies (Alien v. Predator). However, making it a canon match up between these two forces make no sense regardless of whether its the Avengers being brought into the universe to fight against the First Order or vice versa.

    Neither side have any reason to want to deal with the other. The First Order would find Earth to be more a backwater than Jakku and they simply don’t fit in the Galaxy of the Guardian movies.

    The Avengers also have no interest in such a distant force absent some contrivance that would bring them into contact with the First Order, and then they would also need a contrivance to care about the Star Wars Galaxy.

    I assume you want to see a full on fight between the two. The Avengers going into a First Order installation, getting something they want, and leaving, is a relatively simple thing that they (as a team of superheroes) are remarkably well adapted to.

    However, a movie to that effect would immediately strain credulity. The ability of movie goers to actually believe in what’s going on up on that screen would be stretched beyond their limits.

    In the real movies, a cross-over only works as a background easter egg or as a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    The First Order has advanced technology and the Dark Side of the Force, the Marvel side has more superheroes. Who has the advantage here?
    I suggested in a Doctor Doom thread awhile ago that Doctor Doom by himself should be able to take over the First Order.

    Some of the Marvel Superheroes (and quite a few of the villains) are on a level well beyond any of the powers you see among the Jedi or Sith.

    This is assuming we are taking these characters from the comics. Doctor Doom has mind control abilities, teleportation, and time travel powers beyond anything the Emperor or Vader has ever been purported to do in any form.

    The MCU Avengers, on the other hand, has some of these abilities (including time travel now, apparently) but are nowhere near as capable or ruthless as this one Marvel comic book villain. Also you are looking at a full-on battle, not some sort of single subversive intrusion.

    So to see which force will win in battle, all we need to do is compare the one battle to the other.

    Let’s look at the Avenger’s greatest battle. The big battle at the end of Endgame was basically a land battle in a small local area on Earth. Doctor Strange was able to teleport in an eclectic group of forces including the Wakanda army and basically every hero in the entire franchise, so this is the maximum membership we could ever consider to be “the Avengers.” They won the battle against Thanos’ forces but only because Tony got the gauntlet.

    The most impressive physical feat we saw there was Captain Marvel take down Thanos entire spaceship, which looked pretty big for a ship that was hovering close to the battle and about to fire some big weapons.

    Thanos’ ship certainly seems like nothing next to the Star Destroyers and Dreadnoughts of the First Order. Maybe Captain Marvel can still cut through them like butter, but we’ve haven’t seen anything on the scale of the Star Wars ships, and if so, she’s the only thing the Avenger’s have that appears capable of taking on these ships.

    The problem is the First Order has a practically endless supply of these (and we are specifying the ENTIRE First Order, right)?

    In TLJ the First Order had overwhelming force in terms of their troops, ships, ground vehicle and even that “Death Star tech” canon. Given time they would have brought more star destroyers and eventually blow up a good portion of the planet’s surface. The Resistance was able to, with great heroism, delay the First Order so that a single lousy light freighter could escape and that was with a couple of near suicides and Luke’s big fake out.

    Instead, we take the forces Doctor Strange brought in against Thanos expecting to win in direct combat. The two sides charge.

    Most of the Avengers, including minor characters alongside the Wakandan army get decimated right off the bat.

    Sure Captain Marvel might be untouchable but most of the rest of the Avengers would find a blaster to the face to be most inconvenient.

    Assume many of them are good at dodging a wall of blaster fire from ground troops, and we end up with the nimble troops (folks like Spider-Man, Captain America, Tony)...however, likely the heavy hitters (Thor and Hulk) get decimated. Its possible Captain America and Black Panther also discover that vibranium simply isn’t effective against the empire’s level of fire power. However, none of this matters.

    Best case scenario, Avengers by some miracle, beat the land troops. Perhaps Captain Marvel simply cuts through like a hot knife through butter. Then the back up arrives. Multiple Star Destroyers, and its all over.

    Star Destroyers are able to decimate the entire surface of a planet. The Avengers are not able to do much against this sort of power. Even Captain Marvel has her limits against what is effectively an endless supply of Star Destroyers.

    Maybe Doctor Strange can teleport a few Avengers onto the Star Destroyers. Maybe the tech savvy can do something, since apparently its easy to sneak around these big starships and do damage, even blow up the entire ship. However, against the sheer numbers of the First Order eventually the Avengers will expire.

    Avengers vs. The First Order is like putting an elite squad against an entire military, it doesn’t matter how great the squad is, they just have no way to win against such an overwhelming force in a head to head confrontation.

    Let’s hope the Avengers figure that out and use some Pym particles to go back in time and figure another way to deal with this problem. They are the heroes, so they’ll always be able to pull out a victory if you just give them enough plot.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2019-07-17 at 09:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    This would be the First Order led by Kylo Ren (Ben Solo) vs the Avengers from the Mavel Comic movies. It struck me how the last two Star Wars movies were like Star Wars. So this is a discussion about a hypothetical crossover.

    Would this make a good movie? Would it work better if the Avengers were in the Star Wars Universe, or should we bring the First Order and a number of Star Destroyers into the Mavel Universe? What do you think would happen? Would the forces be balanced?

    The First Order has advanced technology and the Dark Side of the Force, the Marvel side has more superheroes. Who has the advantage here?
    Which version of the avengers? Because Doctor Strange could use the mirror dimension and sling rings to defeat any ship in the fleet as far as I know. Kylo Ren is not a match for Strange in a fight either.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Starkiller destroys earth from halfway across the galaxy. The End.

    Otherwise, it would be something like TFA, where the Avengers infiltrate before it fires.
    The heroes in TFA had a former stormtrooper stationed on the base, though, so they knew where it was. Avengers would no more be able to find Starkiller Base than the Empire was able to find the Rebel base beside planting a tracker on the Falcon.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The heroes in TFA had a former stormtrooper stationed on the base, though, so they knew where it was. Avengers would no more be able to find Starkiller Base than the Empire was able to find the Rebel base beside planting a tracker on the Falcon.
    They have literal magic...

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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    I shall now write up a script to create this crossover and make it work!

    All of the avengers are at avengers tower, celebrating their grand victory over the forces of, I dunno, AIM. They each took a turn punching MODOK in his large face and are now having a party. Suddenly... GASP! A giant portal opened up and ate the tower! OH NOES! It appears on a planet in the star wars universe. As they are trying to figure out whats going on OH NOES! It turns out the First Order is coming to this location to blow up the planet! We need your help strange looking heroes! AVENGERS ASSEMBLE! Then they get liquefied from orbit and die. Their final quip lost in the screaming particles of plasma their corporeal forms were reduced to.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    They have literal magic...
    Good, they'll need it to find out where Starkiller Base is, as well as be able to travel there to get to it, as well as know how to destroy it rather than just start hitting random things on a literally planet-sized weapon.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Good, they'll need it to find out where Starkiller Base is, as well as be able to travel there to get to it, as well as know how to destroy it rather than just start hitting random things on a literally planet-sized weapon.
    Fighter pilots always seem to instinctively know what critical reactor core will blow the superweapon up, even when they lack force powers or schematics. So thats likely their smallest difficulty.

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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Fighter pilots always seem to instinctively know what critical reactor core will blow the superweapon up, even when they lack force powers or schematics. So thats likely their smallest difficulty.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    I mean, Spider-Man v. Rey can be an interesting question, but both the First Order and the Avengers live in narrative structures where the Good Guy always (if eventually) triumphs. So this one is a clear win for Earth's Mightiest Heroes, possibly after a setback or a period where things look bleak.
    Last edited by Lapak; 2019-07-18 at 10:29 AM.

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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    The key question is basically 'how much do they know about each other in advance'

    Basically the standard Avengers conflict is 'fend off army while finding a way to disable Doomsday device 34' Captain Marvel might hear about the FO from the Kree or Skrulls, in which case the Avengers may not be fighting blind.

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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The key question is basically 'how much do they know about each other in advance'

    Basically the standard Avengers conflict is 'fend off army while finding a way to disable Doomsday device 34' Captain Marvel might hear about the FO from the Kree or Skrulls, in which case the Avengers may not be fighting blind.
    That's an excellent point in the other direction too; the First Order may well not care about Earth at all, if it has so significant resources and isnt in any good location for hyperlane routes, or offers any other advantages.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's an excellent point in the other direction too; the First Order may well not care about Earth at all, if it has so significant resources and isnt in any good location for hyperlane routes, or offers any other advantages.
    It spawns an abnormally high number of individuals with weird powers, and contains a fairly large deposit of vibranium - clearly it is a locus of the Force and would be an excellent place to perform occult Sith magics/build a Jedi temple to focus the magical pyramid power, and 'weird semi-magic minerals used to build unique super-weapons' already makes up like half of notable Star Wars plots. It's a good enough excuse to start with, as far as Star Wars and superhero plotting goes ('Potentially malevolent practitioners of a strange magical tradition want to set up on Earth's territory' is a textbook Dr. Strange plot premise, too.)

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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    On one side, you have a franchise where the soldiers are physically incapable of hitting main characters, and on the other side, you have a franchise where everyone is a main character. This looks like a pretty simple curb stomp to me.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    On one side, you have a franchise where the soldiers are physically incapable of hitting main characters
    Today I learned that Leia and C-3PO aren't main characters.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Today I learned that Leia and C-3PO aren't main characters.
    Lethal blasts never hit organic main characters. Stun blasts almost always do.

    Thus, for the Empire/First Order/Bounty Hunters/whatever, they need to use less then lethal combat to win.

    C-3PO is a droid and thus has a higher damage threshold. He could loss multiple limbs and still be alright. Thus, if a main has to take a lethal blaster to the face and they are not written to die, R2D2 or C3PO are your first choice.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Amusingly, a great deal of complaints are that the last two Star Wars movies are not like Star Wars.
    The Last Jedi sucked: Insufficient Jar Jar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    It spawns an abnormally high number of individuals with weird powers
    Does it though? I mean, the shear variability of powers and power levels might be higher than average, but then you've got the Skrulls, where everyone is pretty much born with a major Spider-man villains power set, only better, and races like the Asgard and the Kree, where at the very least everyone in the upper castes has above Captain America levels of physical ability.
    Last edited by Xyril; 2019-07-18 at 02:31 PM.

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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lurkmoar View Post
    Lethal blasts never hit organic main characters. Stun blasts almost always do.
    Lethal blast hit Leia in the shoulder on Endor. "Lethal" in the sense of "full-powered blast, not a stun blast."

    ETA: Also, the stun blasts in the new trilogy are significantly more likely to be lethal in the sense of "can freaking kill you." Old stun blasts just dropped you, which makes sense. New stun blasts throw you across the room, which should right off the bat break bones and can very likely kill if you hit the wrong thing the wrong way. All for a cheap laugh.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-07-18 at 02:41 PM. Reason: Didn't notice the "organic" bit.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's an excellent point in the other direction too; the First Order may well not care about Earth at all, if it has so significant resources and isnt in any good location for hyperlane routes, or offers any other advantages.
    The way Kylo Ren might see it is that the Earth must be strong with the Force to have so many superheroes on it with "Force powers" that he's never heard of. I am sure Kylo Ren would like to d o some of the things Doctor Strange can do. The ability to turn into a big Green monster might be useful too. The Earth would otherwise be a dull and boring backwater planet without those superheroes and villains on its surface.

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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus View Post
    The way Kylo Ren might see it is that the Earth must be strong with the Force to have so many superheroes on it with "Force powers" that he's never heard of. I am sure Kylo Ren would like to d o some of the things Doctor Strange can do. The ability to turn into a big Green monster might be useful too. The Earth would otherwise be a dull and boring backwater planet without those superheroes and villains on its surface.
    Given that he can feel the Force and could feel the lack of it on Earth (assuming said powers aren't actually Force powers in this combined universe), I would be surprised.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Given that he can feel the Force and could feel the lack of it on Earth (assuming said powers aren't actually Force powers in this combined universe), I would be surprised.
    Why would there be a lack of Force on the Earth? If there is matter, there is the Force.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Why would there be a lack of Force on the Earth? If there is matter, there is the Force.
    The Yuuzhan Vong disagreed back in Legends, so there's potential precedence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    The Yuuzhan Vong disagreed back in Legends, so there's potential precedence.
    They had Force immunity and Force invisibility, but I don’t think the Force was literally entirely absent from them.

    Also, they were a rather odd race and storyline, since they literally from another galaxy and had no real connection to the any of the factions or Star War’s history. A bit like if Indiana Jones suddenly started investigating aliens or something
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    They had Force immunity and Force invisibility, but I don’t think the Force was literally entirely absent from them.

    Also, they were a rather odd race and storyline, since they literally from another galaxy and had no real connection to the any of the factions or Star War’s history. A bit like if Indiana Jones suddenly started investigating aliens or something
    Indeed, it makes an excellent parallel for Earth!
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Kylo Ren's Force powers are somewhat underwhelming compared to Ebony Maw even. I can't see how it would make much of a difference if it came down to a battle of super-powered individuals.

    The biggest issue with the First Order is the same as the Empire's, if you eliminate their leadership they'll likely collapse. Which isn't hard for the Avengers to do really. You have a Space Battleship Yamato situation where a single unimportant planet can undermine a giant malevolent space empire with a few tactical strikes and ultimately the death of their emperor because of how poorly structured and prone to internal divisions their totalitarian dictatorship was. Though the First Order is in a worse position as the Gamilas Empire has actually competent commanders and generally very willing and loyal soldiers, as opposed to brain-washed slaves and chuckle-yuck admirals.

    The biggest issue with the Avengers is any dedicated effort by the First Order against them would seriously risk the Earth, which could render any victory a Pyrrhic one even if Captain Marvel punches them all to death afterwards.

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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    I mean, honestly, force or no force, it doesnt really matter, the idea of a planet with such absurd beings on it would be fascinating to the star wars universe. These are humans, and yet some get powers that range from always knowing which way is north, to tearing a planet in half through manipulating the electromagnetic spectrum. Thats going to be fascinating from a scientific standpoint as well as a power hungry one.
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I mean, honestly, force or no force, it doesnt really matter, the idea of a planet with such absurd beings on it would be fascinating to the star wars universe. These are humans, and yet some get powers that range from always knowing which way is north, to tearing a planet in half through manipulating the electromagnetic spectrum. Thats going to be fascinating from a scientific standpoint as well as a power hungry one.
    I don't remember seeing a single scientist in the entirety of the franchise. There have been a few engineers, but no scientists. Does the Star Wars universe even have them?
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    Default Re: The First Order vs the Avengers

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    I don't remember seeing a single scientist in the entirety of the franchise. There have been a few engineers, but no scientists. Does the Star Wars universe even have them?
    Did you mean "franchise" or "films?"
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