Excuse my ignorance, but why does Nale hate Malack?

[RatElemental]

Tarquin's soul is already theirs, certainly, but what about all the people that he's corrupting by running his three empire scam? Look at the Empire of Blood--to get anywhere in it you need to be the same sort of vicious sod as Tarquin himself, and all those thousands of guards etc. can't all just be "following orders".

Tarquin strikes me as the type to use conscription, honestly. We already know that if you cross him he can have your entire family erased.

[Khay]

One thing that always struck me about Malack's death was how simple and straightforward it was. Remember that Nale was a terrible planner and very prone to overcomplication - his schemes tended to get worse the more time he had to plan, in fact - but there's no sign of this with Malack. He didn't even pause to lecture Malack!

I might be reading too much into it, but to me this suggests that Nale took this grudge a lot more seriously than the one against Elan and company.

[Quebbster]

One thing that always struck me about Malack's death was how simple and straightforward it was. Remember that Nale was a terrible planner and very prone to overcomplication - his schemes tended to get worse the more time he had to plan, in fact - but there's no sign of this with Malack. He didn't even pause to lecture Malack!

I might be reading too much into it, but to me this suggests that Nale took this grudge a lot more seriously than the one against Elan and company.

"With Malack, it was Always kill or be killed."
That sums up the difference nicely. Nale knew he couldn't screw up his chance to kill Malack, because if he did he would be dead. Screwing up against the Order is a lot less fatal.

[Vinyadan]

I doubt Sabine would've been sent to recruit Tarquin. Like the Powers Below said when Qarr tried to swing a soul-for-power deal for Kubota, insufficient return on investment. Because they've got his worm-ridden filth of a soul already.

If the IFCC were only interested in the souls of individuals, sure. But we have seen that they like having other, long haul projects. Tarquin is powerful and dangerous, and he interacts with other powerful people. A liaison with him should be useful.

How would that translate to a grudge against Malack? A grudge that Nale apparently held since he was at least 9?

Good question. I probably could cook up a way to make that make sense, but it would be very far-fetched.

[Cazero]

"With Malack, it was Always kill or be killed."
That sums up the difference nicely. Nale knew he couldn't screw up his chance to kill Malack, because if he did he would be dead. Screwing up against the Order is a lot less fatal.

No no nonono. The difference is that none of that pyramid escapade under Tarquin's supervision was part of Nale's plans. Consequently, there was no needlessly complicated plan at all. He simply killed Malack when he saw the perfect opportunity showing up.

[KorvinStarmast]

I wonder why three fiends whose purpose is to spread unnecesary, destructive conflict would send a succubus agent to manipulate Tarquin, a guy devoted to control the Western Continent by promoting endless unnecesary destructive conflict... It would be funny if Tarquin's Master Plan were, in fact, had been inspired by the IFCC trough Sabine.

Doubly so in terms of how it makes Tarquin a subject of, not the master of, the narrative.

[D.One]

How would that translate to a grudge against Malack? A grudge that Nale apparently held since he was at least 9?

Maybe Malack did lots of "Nale to the Coffin" jokes back in the past...

[FujinAkari]

Ah, the "some person I won't name or give a source for says so" argument. Well here's two sources that say it only dates back to 1973, and always meant changing established continuity.

Retcon is a shortened form of retroactive continuity, and refers to a literary device in which the form or content of a previously established narrative is changed .... The term appears to have its roots in a 1973 book by E. Frank Tupper titled The Theology of Wolfhart Pannenberg: “Pannenberg’s conception of retroactive continuity ultimately means that history flows fundamentally from the future into the past.”

and

Retcon is a relatively new word that was first included in the Oxford English Dictionary in 2012.

Do you have a source for the word existing in a different form prior to that?

In addition to this (and I apologize if it feels like I'm piling on,) would it even matter if the claim of a different historical meaning was true? If the argument is "Oh, well there is this other definition that is now obsolete." If the word is accepted to mean one thing, then that is how everyone will use it. Unless the poster is as vampiric as Malack, there is no viable reason for the outdated usage to be used. :)

[Quebbster]

No no nonono. The difference is that none of that pyramid escapade under Tarquin's supervision was part of Nale's plans. Consequently, there was no needlessly complicated plan at all. He simply killed Malack when he saw the perfect opportunity showing up.

Seems to me Z knew what Nale was planning to do. I agree that Nale seized the opportunity when it presented itself, but I think he had made plans for how to do it in advance. He had a pretty good idea about what Malack's defenses were after all.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If the IFCC were only interested in the souls of individuals, sure. But we have seen that they like having other, long haul projects. Tarquin is powerful and dangerous, and he interacts with other powerful people. A liaison with him should be useful.

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!

We have no idea if Sabine was working for the IFCC at that point, or some random schmoe in the Abyss. And CE demons have little reason to do anything with a LE fighter, other than kill him.

[D.One]

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!

We have no idea if Sabine was working for the IFCC at that point, or some random schmoe in the Abyss. And CE demons have little reason to do anything with a LE fighter, other than kill him.

Well, she was with Nale because of his Eeeeevil potential.

[Schroeswald]

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!

We have no idea if Sabine was working for the IFCC at that point, or some random schmoe in the Abyss. And CE demons have little reason to do anything with a LE fighter, other than kill him.

We don’t know she’s not in league with them, it showed that she could have been assigned to Tarquin.

Also the IFCC are LE, NE and CE, I don’t remember which is which. They aren’t all Chaotic Evil is the point. Also they might not have interest in some fighter but some fighter who seems to have a working plan to take over the entire Western Continent might be more interesting (but they also have no interest in killing him, he creates more death and conflict so even if he isn’t important enough to help he isn’t hurting anything).

[HorizonWalker]

Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence!

We have no idea if Sabine was working for the IFCC at that point, or some random schmoe in the Abyss. And CE demons have little reason to do anything with a LE fighter, other than kill him.

Thankfully, someone else already linked to this comic. However, I'd like to point out the very specific word Sabine uses to refer to her superiors:

"Archfiends."

Not "archdemons" or "demon lords." Specifically "archfiends." Now, obviously, it's just one word that doesn't actually have to imply anything; people use words that are slightly wrong but close enough to what they mean all the time, and rarely is it on purpose. But, considering the IFCC has a group shot of the OG LG, plus Sabine specifying archfiend- as in, potentially a devil, daemon, or demon- all this leads me to believe she was in their pocket from the very beginning.

[Riftwolf]

Thankfully, someone else already linked to this comic. However, I'd like to point out the very specific word Sabine uses to refer to her superiors:

"Archfiends."

Not "archdemons" or "demon lords." Specifically "archfiends." Now, obviously, it's just one word that doesn't actually have to imply anything; people use words that are slightly wrong but close enough to what they mean all the time, and rarely is it on purpose. But, considering the IFCC has a group shot of the OG LG, plus Sabine specifying archfiend- as in, potentially a devil, daemon, or demon- all this leads me to believe she was in their pocket from the very beginning.

Think you're reading too much into it. If she'd said 'archdemons/pit lords/balors', it would've spoilt the joke of the strip where Haley didn't know her damage reduction. And this was a pre-200 strip where it was still gag a day stuff; I doubt Rich had even thought up the IFCC at that point.

[Squire Doodad]

*Snip*

I think this is a case of Rich making use of previous aspects for worldbuilding, not planning stuff half a decade in advance. What can be taken from it is that Sabine was working for the IFCC from the start, but that's not something that would have been relevant for a while.

[RatElemental]

We don’t know she’s not in league with them, it showed that she could have been assigned to Tarquin.

Also the IFCC are LE, NE and CE, I don’t remember which is which. They aren’t all Chaotic Evil is the point. Also they might not have interest in some fighter but some fighter who seems to have a working plan to take over the entire Western Continent might be more interesting (but they also have no interest in killing him, he creates more death and conflict so even if he isn’t important enough to help he isn’t hurting anything).

Lee is the LE one, Cedrik the CE one, and Nero the NE one. They come with a handy built in mnemonic.

[Rrmcklin]

I wonder why three fiends whose purpose is to spread unnecesary, destructive conflict would send a succubus agent to manipulate Tarquin, a guy devoted to control the Western Continent by promoting endless unnecesary destructive conflict...

It would be funny if Tarquin's Master Plan were, in fact, had been inspired by the IFCC trough Sabine.

You're taking that out of context, as people tend to do. The point they were making is that they want "destructive, unnecessary conflict" for their enemies to slow them down so that the Fiendish races have a better chance of succeeding. They weren't talking about destroying all order just for the sake of it. Certainly not for the destruction of a bunch of Evil empires on material plane which can only be good for them.

[Ruck]

"With Malack, it was Always kill or be killed."
That sums up the difference nicely. Nale knew he couldn't screw up his chance to kill Malack, because if he did he would be dead. Screwing up against the Order is a lot less fatal.

No no nonono. The difference is that none of that pyramid escapade under Tarquin's supervision was part of Nale's plans. Consequently, there was no needlessly complicated plan at all. He simply killed Malack when he saw the perfect opportunity showing up.

Not sure how that refuses the earlier post. Plus:

Seems to me Z knew what Nale was planning to do. I agree that Nale seized the opportunity when it presented itself, but I think he had made plans for how to do it in advance. He had a pretty good idea about what Malack's defenses were after all.

Yep-- he and Zz'dtri clearly coordinated in advance on what to do if the opportunity presented itself.

[hroþila]

I'd say the comic is quite explicit that it was planned in advance:

Qarr: What the Hell just happened?!?
Nale: Heh. Just a little something we've had in our back pocket. Now seemed like the best time.
Zz'dtri: Worked well.

[Cazero]

Well. I guess I was wrong.

[D.One]

I'd say the comic is quite explicit that it was planned in advance:

Qarr: What the Hell just happened?!?
Nale: Heh. Just a little something we've had in our back pocket. Now seemed like the best time.
Zz'dtri: Worked well.

That seems so. It's a pretty simple and quite generic strategy "If they are in a situation where Malack is outdoors and somehow isolated from the rest of the Vector Legion, and has already used his prepared protection from sunlight, take the staff from him and Z dispels his sunlight protection."

[Quebbster]

That seems so. It's a pretty simple and quite generic strategy "If they are in a situation where Malack is outdoors and somehow isolated from the rest of the Vector Legion, and has already used his prepared protection from sunlight, take the staff from him and Z dispels his sunlight protection."

[url0http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html]Sabine obviously knew quite a bit about the Vector Legion's capabilities[/url], so I figure Nale had a good grasp about Malack's defenses. I figure he saw a window of opportunity when Malack cast Protection from Sunlight on Durkon*. He might have pulled Z aside off-camera and pointed out what a great opportunity this might be.
Yeah, more or less what you said, the real difference is when the planning happened. Not that it matters.

[Squire Doodad]

That seems so. It's a pretty simple and quite generic strategy "If they are in a situation where Malack is outdoors and somehow isolated from the rest of the Vector Legion, and has already used his prepared protection from sunlight, take the staff from him and Z dispels his sunlight protection."

It might be simple, but was pulled off with no gloating, no taunting, nothing except for a vague comment that was probably meant to be a signal for Z. That is very un-Nale like, and suggests that Malack was such an important and dangerous target that Nale had to do it. That he couldn't risk putting him in a position to pull a sudden reversal, but rather had to eliminate the threat instantly.

At a certain point, an uncharacteristic level of pragmatism suggests it is actually personal.

[Vinyadan]

It might be simple, but was pulled off with no gloating, no taunting, nothing except for a vague comment that was probably meant to be a signal for Z. That is very un-Nale like, and suggests that Malack was such an important and dangerous target that Nale had to do it. That he couldn't risk putting him in a position to pull a sudden reversal, but rather had to eliminate the threat instantly.

At a certain point, an uncharacteristic level of pragmatism suggests it is actually personal.

The comment may have been a way to tell Z "heads up". Nale initiates the action himself.

[Xyril]

"With Malack, it was Always kill or be killed."
That sums up the difference nicely. Nale knew he couldn't screw up his chance to kill Malack, because if he did he would be dead. Screwing up against the Order is a lot less fatal.

Aside from the whole Good is always merciful trope, Nale never respected Elan's abilities. Not only did he know that he'd get potentially unlimited second chances, I don't think he ever doubted that victory was possible given a few slight changes in circumstances. Thus with Elan, it made sense to keep rolling the dice to not only get a victory, but to hold out until he gets the precise, over-the-top villain victory Nale would most enjoy.

As you say, with Malack, there'd be no second chances, but I think that even with his ego and his faith in his plans, Nale knew that none of his elaborate schemes could put Malack in a more vulnerable position than what fate just handed him.

If the IFCC were only interested in the souls of individuals, sure. But we have seen that they like having other, long haul projects. Tarquin is powerful and dangerous, and he interacts with other powerful people. A liaison with him should be useful.

Plus, look at all the suffering Tarquin and his allies have caused. They've left countless vanquished nations in their wake, with a lot of survivors hungry for revenge but generally lacking the means to take it. If this leaves two or more non-Evils in a position where they'd be desperate enough to take the deal, then that's already double the return on your typical soul-exchange.

[Squire Doodad]

The comment may have been a way to tell Z "heads up". Nale initiates the action himself.

Well
Yes
That's what I said, though I was slightly ambiguous with my phrasing.

[The Pilgrim]

At a certain point, an uncharacteristic level of pragmatism suggests it is actually personal.

You are talking like if Nale had not shown the same level of brutal pragmatism the first time he backstabbed Elan and betrayed the Order.

After learning that all the Order was going to do with him after failing, was sending him to the prison of some arbitrary civilization for his allies to set him free, is when Nale decided to indulge in the over-the-top complicated plan to destroy Elan on every possible level. Nale could afford it because Nale was risking nothing. If he wins, he wins. If he loses, he gets to try again another day. Nale only needs to be lucky once, Elan needs to be lucky every time.

To some extent, I think it was the same with Tarquin. Nale was used to get away with anything under his nose, and that's why he dares to tell him in the face about having murdered Malack. What Nale didn't take into account was that he was no longer Tarquin's sole son. Tarquin had a spare, now. And one that fitted Tarquin's narrative views better.

[Khay]

You are talking like if Nale had not shown the same level of brutal pragmatism the first time he backstabbed Elan and betrayed the Order.

It's the combination of pragmatism and planning that I personally think is unusual for Nale. He's always been quite good at thinking on his feet (like when he almost got Elan to stab Haley, or how easily he turned Amun-Zora around to his side) but terrible at planning. If he's been planning to kill Malack for so long, the "normal" Nale thing to do would be to set up some ridiculously complicated scheme that somehow involves framing Malack for a crime. Something simple and straightforward is very unusual for Nale. Actually, having a backup plan at all is unusual for Nale.

[The Pilgrim]

He had a long term plan the first time we meet him. The plan worked, twarted only by a lucky natural 20 shot.

The second time, his plan was not terrible. It worked. Elan ended in prison and he sucessfully doppelganged himself in the Order.

His plan to locate Girard's Gate actually worked.

Nale was not a terrible planner.

[factotum]

I'd argue with that. Nale's plans tended to be over-complicated--they were like a Swiss watch in that they worked beautifully so long as all the gears meshed as intended, but fell apart completely if one little thing went wrong, as almost invariably happened. His plan to kill Malack was extremely simple by Nale's standards which is why it worked so well.