The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #811
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by geoduck View Post
    Which is almost certainly what Klaus was thinking when he cloned off what he thought was Agatha's dead body.
    Except he wasn't cloning her. He was explicitly reviving her, albiet intending to put in a different brain. It might have worked, though.
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  2. - Top - End - #812
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Even without some sparky super science for detection I suspect there are some kind of traces for the kind of clone you grow an adult body in a short while instead of it growing up. So an explanation why it doesn't work wouldn't be hard and it depends on whether the authors wanted to have such a plotline.

  3. - Top - End - #813
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    Except he wasn't cloning her. He was explicitly reviving her, albiet intending to put in a different brain. It might have worked, though.
    I assume the use he had in mind was to control the Empire. Fix Agatha's body up, then stick in a Construct brain that is able to pass casual inspection. He then has "Agatha" publicly announce the support of House Heterodyne for the Empire. He keeps her in seclusion apart from trotting her out periodically for public events where access to her is tightly restricted.

  4. - Top - End - #814
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    Even without some sparky super science for detection I suspect there are some kind of traces for the kind of clone you grow an adult body in a short while instead of it growing up.
    Oh sure. For starters, a body grown in a vat or tube will be taller, since floating in the fluid-stuff means you don't have spinal compression. A cursory examination will also show a lack of all those small scars we pick up in a lifetime as well as missing repetitive damage due to just using your body.

  5. - Top - End - #815
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Height also depends on diet while growing up, so vat-grown clones may very well also be taller simply because they were better fed during their accelerated growth. Body fat also matters, and also has an impact on how the skeleton develops (the famous "big-boned" thing). And muscle, too. Your vat-grown clone with its accelerated growth, is typically depicted just floating indolently in artificially-maintained sleep. That's not gonna develop a lot of muscle mass.

    It's plausible that vat-grown clones would suffer, among other cloning-induced problems, from about the same problems as an astronaut who stayed too long in microgravity and didn't exercise enough: frail bones, insufficient muscles to stand upright. In addition, probably, to excessive fat. So they'd have to get through a lot of physical education -- basically the equivalent of reeducation -- before they can appear functional in public; and even then we're betting on mad science/super technology to take care of their mental development because there's really no reason why your clone would emerge from the vat knowing how to speak or do anything else that people of their apparent age are expected to know how to do.
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  6. - Top - End - #816
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Yeah, cloning is right next to time travel as a sci-fi trope that makes me roll my eyes clean out of my head. Doing it via magic, however, doesn't trigger that reaction for some reason.

  7. - Top - End - #817
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Cloning and time travel both offer easy outs to story consequences, in particular character death.
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  8. - Top - End - #818
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Yeah, cloning is right next to time travel as a sci-fi trope that makes me roll my eyes clean out of my head. Doing it via magic, however, doesn't trigger that reaction for some reason.
    Cloning can be okay when used realistically. That means no instant cloning, cloning someone makes a baby. That baby is a distinct person with its own set of legal rights and is considered a different person. The ramifications for inheritance law can be fascinating (there's a great discussion on it in the Honor Harrington books) and you can have a lot of fun with illegal cloning of this type.

    Of course, this type of cloning is rarely seen because the "magic second you" makes for more engaging storytelling. Even if it is massively unrealistic.

  9. - Top - End - #819
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    That's less cloning and more in vitro with a couple extra bells and whistles.

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    That's less cloning and more in vitro with a couple extra bells and whistles.
    I like how both get used in the Vorkosigan books at various points. One time cloning creates an insane clone assassin. The other time the local ruler essentially engages in prima nocta with every expectant mother in his city (in an insane plan to increase the working population by making more women).
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  11. - Top - End - #821
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Oh sure. For starters, a body grown in a vat or tube will be taller, since floating in the fluid-stuff means you don't have spinal compression.
    Beowulf Shaeffer came out shorter, being regrown in a gravity well.

  12. - Top - End - #822
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

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    OK, Foglios, get the ear-plugged guys in here, have a gun-battle, and get this over with. Have the wasped troops spirit away the extracted Head-Lu to cause trouble later, fine, just enough with the Agatha-possessed storyline, please!

  13. - Top - End - #823
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    OK, now I am really expecting the final form.
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  14. - Top - End - #824
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by geoduck View Post
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    OK, Foglios, get the ear-plugged guys in here, have a gun-battle, and get this over with. Have the wasped troops spirit away the extracted Head-Lu to cause trouble later, fine, just enough with the Agatha-possessed storyline, please!
    I think Lu is going to be extracted. The only tool they had to keep Lu in check, the brooch, is basically not working anymore. And I don't think the group could function very well with a real fear that Lu can pop out at any second.

    But I suspect the Foglio's have to play it up a bit because this the climatic ending to a long multi-volume problem that has plagued Agatha. Just having a character push a magic button to get rid of it would be anti-climatic.
    Last edited by xroads; 2019-10-25 at 10:34 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #825
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    I think Lu is going to be extracted. The only tool they had to keep Lu in check, the brooch, is basically not working anymore.

    But I suspect the Foglio's have to play it up a bit because this the climatic ending to a long multi-volume problem that has plagued Agatha. Just having a character push a magic button to get rid of it would be anti-climatic.
    Well, Martellus could have done something weird to the machine. He could turn into a new and improved Other.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  16. - Top - End - #826
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    This repeated fakeout isn't working either though, because it's building up the tension only to snatch it away like Charlie Brown's football over and over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  17. - Top - End - #827
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Well, Martellus could have done something weird to the machine. He could turn into a new and improved Other.
    Possible. But Tweedle seems to genuinely hate the Other. And he's already got his own empire conquest plans in motion.

    But I do think he did something to Oggie that will come into play later in the story. He certainly isn't the type to waste an opportunity like that.

  18. - Top - End - #828
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    I repeat what I said before. At this point, I'm willing to accept Agatha dead if that's the price of ending this stupid plot.

  19. - Top - End - #829
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    This repeated fakeout isn't working either though, because it's building up the tension only to snatch it away like Charlie Brown's football over and over.
    I'm having flashbacks to the Castle.
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  20. - Top - End - #830
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    This repeated fakeout isn't working either though, because it's building up the tension only to snatch it away like Charlie Brown's football over and over.
    that sums up ⅓ of the comic.
    * my emphasis

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  21. - Top - End - #831
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by Narkis View Post
    I'm having flashbacks to the Castle.
    At least the Castle mixed it up, which kept it somewhat fresh. It was a non-stop extended string of different disasters and obstacles, and there was always another obstacle waiting in the wings, so while it dragged on endlessly it was never repetitive.

    This is an endless loop of "1-attack Lucrezia-momentary advantage-Lucrezia regains advantage-GOTO 1". The only variation is 'who' is currently failing to do anything meaningful.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2019-10-25 at 11:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  22. - Top - End - #832
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    At least the Castle mixed it up, which kept it somewhat fresh. It was a non-stop extended string of different disasters and obstacles, and there was always another obstacle waiting in the wings, so while it dragged on endlessly it was never repetitive.

    This is an endless loop of "1-attack Lucrezia-momentary advantage-Lucrezia regains advantage-GOTO 1". The only variation is 'who' is currently failing to do anything meaningful.
    Plus it started with all of the protagonists being impossibly stupid, repeatedly letting Agatha wander around unsupervised after it was explicitly noted she was having trouble keeping Lucrezia under control.
    Last edited by geoduck; 2019-10-26 at 12:23 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #833
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by geoduck View Post
    Plus it started with all of the protagonists being impossibly stupid, repeatedly letting Agatha wander around unsupervised after it was explicitly noted she was having trouble keeping Lucrezia under control.
    I'm still annoyed that nobody knocked Agatha out when she was restrained by Albia. We even have a character who has done exactly that in order to control people in the past. Twice, even!

    Agatha/Lucrezia gets restrained by Albia. Then:

    1) Violetta (who is not doing anything at this point) clonks her on the head like she did in the garden.
    2) Violetta whacks her with a sap like she did to Tweedle in the train station.
    3) Violetta (who has many poisons) shoots her with a tranquilizer dart.
    4) Any or all of the other characters working on the machine takes a few seconds to tie Agatha up.
    5) Any or all of the other characters working on the machine simply strap her into it like they did in the Castle.

    This isn't difficult.

  24. - Top - End - #834
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I'm still annoyed that nobody knocked Agatha out when she was restrained by Albia. We even have a character who has done exactly that in order to control people in the past. Twice, even!

    Agatha/Lucrezia gets restrained by Albia. Then:

    1) Violetta (who is not doing anything at this point) clonks her on the head like she did in the garden.
    2) Violetta whacks her with a sap like she did to Tweedle in the train station.
    3) Violetta (who has many poisons) shoots her with a tranquilizer dart.
    4) Any or all of the other characters working on the machine takes a few seconds to tie Agatha up.
    5) Any or all of the other characters working on the machine simply strap her into it like they did in the Castle.

    This isn't difficult.
    Yeah, I know, this frustrates me too. Violetta was busy laying traps at the time, but come on, she couldn’t have taken the time for one tranquilizer dart? We haven’t even seen any of her traps go off.

    I suppose it’s possible that Agatha HAS to be awake for the machine to work, just like Gil had to be awake with the Baron in charge for the Baron-extraction to work.

    That said, the “time to go!” thing makes me wonder if the reason Albia isn’t coming back is because she’s getting ready to blow the dome. 2 copies of Lucrezia, possibly Vapnoodle (though she might not know about that one), and 4 major and politically powerful and troublesome sparks in one go...it might be too tempting to resist.
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  25. - Top - End - #835
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by NobleCuriosity View Post
    I suppose it’s possible that Agatha HAS to be awake for the machine to work, just like Gil had to be awake with the Baron in charge for the Baron-extraction to work.
    Which prevents the "knock her out for the duration" solution, but doesn't prevent "Tie her up in case Albia's restraints on her fail". Although, would her being tied up have prevented her going Queen and just psyching herself out of the bonds anyway?

  26. - Top - End - #836
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Maybe not which is a great reason for the plot to do that because they can have people being somewhat sensible and then being surprised by something they couldn't be expected to predict instead of them running into issues that were easy to predict and counter and her then playing that trump after some pointless stuff.

  27. - Top - End - #837
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    Maybe not which is a great reason for the plot to do that because they can have people being somewhat sensible and then being surprised by something they couldn't be expected to predict instead of them running into issues that were easy to predict and counter and her then playing that trump after some pointless stuff.
    Yeah, to offer another example, letting Agatha leave the room alone. If the plot demands that Tweedle be there, and Agatha get kidnapped to cure him, fine, but.. have Zeetha, or Violetta, or someone, leave with her, and get knocked out or tricked somehow by Sparafucile.

  28. - Top - End - #838
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    They seem to be making their own decisions instead of just obeying, so probably not directly Lucrezia's. Another Knights of Jove faction or Zola's?

  29. - Top - End - #839
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Finally a good idea. I approve!
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  30. - Top - End - #840
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    Default Re: Girl Genius XXVI: Madness is the best possible response

    Oof, those poor guys. They've been setting up ultimate!power!Lucrezia here, but she obviously can't snap any of the main heroes out of existence, so I reckon these guys are here to get snapped out of existence to show how dangerous Lucrezia is.

    And then, while she's gloating over snapping them, the machine's helmet get's slapped on her head and she gets pulled out of Agatha.
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