Just another Phantasmal Force Q

[Deadandamnation]

I'll try to be quick.

I can't get in my mind how actually make that spell fair.

Since the spell create an image in the target mind instead that in the target proximity I believe that any thing created able to follow the target should be leagal.

To give an example i could create an acid fog that emanates from the target Armor.

The fog Is an illusion so the target reaction After the initial 1d6 psy dmg could be, run away but since they believe it's coming out from him or his Armor the fog should still be around.

Also since it's a fog illusion, any visual behind that Is negated.

They can still interact with the save granted by the description but it's a pretty hard One.

Compared to many other spells this One Is pretty lame to Banish a target from fighting for some rounds.

You can also create something like a copy of your buddy fighter attacking him.
Shouldn't the enemy try to fight him beliving that he just miss when he try to grapple or attack the image? The interaction Is also trivial in that case.

I'm probably missing something but you can't Just ignore the PF if the DM throw It to you unless you metagame a little.

Pg using it Is more common but still usually mean removing a target from acting regulary (and against a single target that Is the highest advantage since you can still throw ranged attacks with no worries)

[Vogie]

I don't let Fog Cloud follow my players around, nor would I let them cast Darkness on the ground, then move it about when someone stumbles out of it. Silent Image, Flame Sphere and the like have specific text that say "you can move this" and gives specific rules on how it moves and how far you can move it.

Phantasmal Force is another Area of Effect Spell that doesn't have that ability to be moved. It can be up to a 10 ft cube in size, and has an extra range of an additional 5 ft allow them to do damage. It's basically a smaller, psychic version of Cloud of Daggers.

Your Fog of Death idea is pretty cool, but it's just a zone of damage, no different from Spike Growth or Cloud of Daggers. If they move away it'll be concentrated in the original area.

You can make the target think they're stuck in an area, sure - Make a ring of spears pointed at them or of fire, and when they move into it and get stabbed, that creature has the decision to keep pushing through the pain, or pull back. It's also great as a zone control illusion to make a single target avoid an area they have allies in, or that you do, because it's an illusion only one target can see. In a world where creatures are used to things like Cloud of Daggers being thrown at them and react accordingly, having your ranger look like they're surrounded in a cloud of daggers when they're not is quite useful.

[Deadandamnation]

Ok let's keep It static.

But what if the target of PF want to stay close?

A good use of it Is an image of one of the companions bleeding at 0 HP, maybe surrounded by something that hamper visual (else that's too easy to recognize)
You react as it's real, cast cure wounds and try to explain why he Is still on the ground.

Effectively removing the cleric from the party until he decide to leave It there.

Also how should an orc react to something that strikes him from behind with a knife, he turns and that's something the orc would like to eat for dinner (a Sam Tarly like with an Apple in his mouth and a Dagger in his hand).

Shouldn't the orc stay there trying to kill (eat) the image until you take care of the other orcs?

You could also make something that Is a threat for his companions, like a mage charging any spell (fireball?). I'd try to kill that asap.

[viaFAMILIAR]

Something about phantasmal force being a 2nd level spell(fairly expensive) @1d6(quite weak) psychic, tells me it should be more effective than I believe. Is it the damage type? Or the fact that the target needs only to fail a single investigation check to believe it's completely real. Sure, it's use is mainly area control (would a creature cross a chasm if they believed it were real and they couldn't make the jump?), aren't there more effective spells for this application? I really like how illusion spells aren't save based, forcing an action to intelligence(investigation) check instead. I don't see much use past duping a big dummy. However, creating the image of a giant constrictor snake as the party beefcake grapples it's taget sounds pretty rad, would they investigate the illusion or escape the grapple?

[Kyutaru]

Historically, interacting with an illusion in D&D usually grants a bonus on breaking the effect. Disbelief happens when you realize something's weird about it. Any sort of interaction with the illusion is bound to trigger disbelief.

[Deadandamnation]

Something about phantasmal force being a 2nd level spell(fairly expensive) @1d6(quite weak) psychic, tells me it should be more effective than I believe. Is it the damage type? Or the fact that the target needs only to fail a single investigation check to believe it's completely real. Sure, it's use is mainly area control (would a creature cross a chasm if they believed it were real and they couldn't make the jump?), aren't there more effective spells for this application? I really like how illusion spells aren't save based, forcing an action to intelligence(investigation) check instead. I don't see much use past duping a big dummy. However, creating the image of a giant constrictor snake as the party beefcake grapples it's taget sounds pretty rad, would they investigate the illusion or escape the grapple?

Yes the damage Is weak, but compare It to the other single target disable spells. Int saves are usually weak, and It also have to be used to trick stupid foes.

Effectively it's like a hold monster but instead of focusing him you focus the others. (Obviously Is usless or less useful against a single Monster) but Is a 2nd level spell.

If it was a WIS save It would be fine.

[Deadandamnation]

Historically, interacting with an illusion in D&D usually grants a bonus on breaking the effect. Disbelief happens when you realize something's weird about it. Any sort of interaction with the illusion is bound to trigger disbelief.

Not in this case, to trigger disbelief here you have to actually investigate It using and losing your action. Why would you disbelief a goblin you are failing to hit?

[Kyutaru]

Not in this case, to trigger disbelief here you have to actually investigate It using and losing your action. Why would you disbelief a goblin you are failing to hit?

Because your sword just cut through it or your eyes are going bad. Commence action to investigate because something is WEIRD.

[Deadandamnation]

Because your sword just cut through it or your eyes are going bad. Commence action to investigate because something is WEIRD.

That's not what happen with Phantasmal Force. As RAW you miss the goblin (by swinging through as you said) but your mind gives that a rational explanation like: the goblin should have dodged the sword and i was distracted. Read the bridge example in the spell description, you could start to disbelive after a while but even 3 rounds are enough to me.

Also if you disbelief it that's not mean successing an investigation check against something like 16 or 17 DC with a bonus of -2.

[Kyutaru]

That's not what happen with Phantasmal Force. As RAW you miss the goblin (by swinging through as you said) but your mind gives that a rational explanation like: the goblin should have dodged the sword and i was distracted. Read the bridge example in the spell description, you could start to disbelive after a while but even 3 rounds are enough to me.

Also if you disbelief it that's not mean successing an investigation check against something like 16 or 17 DC with a bonus of -2.

You can start to disbelieve immediately, especially if you summoned a pink unicorn with rainbow wings that shoots hearts out its eyes. Don't quote RAW when you're trying to make an effect follow the target when it's one that the wizard creates and maintains himself. It's as homing as your caster's imagination is and has a range of 60 feet, so beyond that the spell stops working.

I have experience dealing with illusions in past editions and will continue to adjudicate them based on the common sense rules that once applied as part of RAW and still make sense for a skill check call, as the spell doesn't say when the target starts making intelligence checks. It could easily be immediately.

And like normal saving throws already allow, I am perfectly capable of granting the target Advantage on the saving throw if he's earned it by interacting with an unbelievable illusion.

[Chronos]

What's so unbelievable about a pink unicorn with rainbow wings that shoots hearts out of its eyes?

[Deadandamnation]

What's so unbelievable about a pink unicorn with rainbow wings that shoots hearts out of its eyes?

Probably the fact that unicorns don't have wings, if It was a Pink Pegasus It would be totally beliveable

[Vogie]

A good use of it Is an image of one of the companions bleeding at 0 HP, maybe surrounded by something that hamper visual (else that's too easy to recognize)
You react as it's real, cast cure wounds and try to explain why he Is still on the ground.

Effectively removing the cleric from the party until he decide to leave It there.

That's a great idea. They'll be tossing healing spells or doing medicine checks, but one that is smart enough may investigate the target to find what is stopping the target from healing. However, if they do that, it's likely discover that it's an illusion. You could even be damaging the cleric using PF by having the "wounded target" be trapped in a flaming beartrap, or maybe otherwise trapped in your fog of death.

Also how should an orc react to something that strikes him from behind with a knife, he turns and that's something the orc would like to eat for dinner (a Sam Tarly like with an Apple in his mouth and a Dagger in his hand).

Shouldn't the orc stay there trying to kill (eat) the image until you take care of the other orcs?

Probably. Having an illusion of a single, seemingly-simple attacker annoying one orc is likely a decent illusion. In addition to your suggestion, the PF could be an itty bitty Arya Stark, stabbing them with Needle and dancing out of their strikes with a smirk. However, remember that none of the other orcs would be able to see it, so if the one fighting the PF is within eyesight of other Orcs, they may run over and say the orcish version of "Dude what are you doing?" which would trigger an investigation check.

This is precisely how my party's Bard used PF a couple months back - The PCs freed the prisoners, then attacked the guards in a small area alongside some of the prisoners... and the bard used PF to have an illusory prisoner attack the chief from behind. So all of the guards were facing away from their leader, facing the party, and the chief kept unloading his attacks and spells on this relatively weak prisoner who just seemed to avoid all damage.

The chief never realized it was an illusion - they finally moved away from the PF's range, walking into the PCs range and was taken out by a Burning Hands by the EK.

You could also make something that Is a threat for his companions, like a mage charging any spell (fireball?). I'd try to kill that asap0.

Precisely. In the midst of battle, you could make an illusion of a mage or ranger, launching arrows or spells against the NPC's companions... even though the mage/ranger doesn't exist, and while the targeted NPC sees them launch fire bolts and arrows, they don't deal any damage to the NPC's allies. However, if the NPC runs over and engages the target, they will damage the NPC as they "defend themselves".

You can also do the reverse, like making a melee NPC see a trio of soldiers protecting a mage, when it's really just a mage in an open field. That mage would normally be a sitting duck, but the PF'd NPC will think that they have to punch through a bunch of guards to get to them. If they do engage, they'll likely see the three soldiers "intercepting" all their attacks, parrying & dodging, while they only get hit once from the three of them, each turn.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

You can start to disbelieve immediately, especially if you summoned a pink unicorn with rainbow wings that shoots hearts out its eyes. Don't quote RAW when you're trying to make an effect follow the target when it's one that the wizard creates and maintains himself. It's as homing as your caster's imagination is and has a range of 60 feet, so beyond that the spell stops working.

I have experience dealing with illusions in past editions and will continue to adjudicate them based on the common sense rules that once applied as part of RAW and still make sense for a skill check call, as the spell doesn't say when the target starts making intelligence checks. It could easily be immediately.

And like normal saving throws already allow, I am perfectly capable of granting the target Advantage on the saving throw if he's earned it by interacting with an unbelievable illusion.

"While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real." From this I take it that it doesn't matter how unrealistic or unbelievable the illusion you conjure is, you are mind-controlling the person to believe in it, so they must treat it as a real threat/obstacle even if its utterly ridiculous and impossible. PF is more than an illusion, which is why it requires a save rather than only the intelligence check. You're nerfing this spell quite unnecessarily if you are adding a new stipulation that the illusion must be plausible.

Additionally, any and all interactions with the illusion are rationalized away by the mind control; if you fail to hit an illusory goblin, you simply rationalize that he dodged the blow, or you fumbled the attack, or something similar.


You are correct however that the illusion stays in its radius and cannot be placed on a moving target like armor, creatures, etc. and that it works more like Darkness in that respect.

Edit: Actually I was wrong about that last part myself. According to sage advice, you can make the effect stick with a moving target. Woops.

[Vogie]

"While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real." From this I take it that it doesn't matter how unrealistic or unbelievable the illusion you conjure is, you are mind-controlling the person to believe in it, so they must treat it as a real threat/obstacle even if its utterly ridiculous and impossible. PF is more than an illusion, which is why it requires a save rather than only the intelligence check. You're nerfing this spell quite unnecessarily if you are adding a new stipulation that the illusion must be plausible.

Additionally, any and all interactions with the illusion are rationalized away by the mind control; if you fail to hit an illusory goblin, you simply rationalize that he dodged the blow, or you fumbled the attack, or something similar.

Not necessarily. If the game has intelligent creatures that understand that magic exists, they're more likely to try to question what's going on. If you have the PF being a massive illusory dragon head sticking out of a wall, breathing fire, the target may notice that:

• nothing is catching fire
• they aren't taking much damage
• none of their allies are reacting to it at all

Compare that to a group of guards (or goblins) engaging the party, and the PF is just another guard (or goblin) who seems obviously magically dominated and attacking the one of their own. That is a fundamental difference in verisimilitude between the two situations.

If you're facing down an Archmage before level 11 and use PF to pretend it's actually Planar Ally, they're likely going to see through it, as they understand magic and would probably think that it's an illusion, because they won't think you have access to that spell yet. Although, if your party always does that, and they become well known, it'll be surprising when you actually use Planar Ally, and your targets assume it's an illusion.

This would also be different if either the creatures are dumb, or aren't certain what magic can do. Those beings are more likely to immediately believe and not bother investigating.

Also, it does NOT require a Save - PF specifically indicates "The target can use its action to examine the phantasm with an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC"

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

Not necessarily. If the game has intelligent creatures that understand that magic exists, they're more likely to try to question what's going on. If you have the PF being a massive illusory dragon head sticking out of a wall, breathing fire, the target may notice that:

• nothing is catching fire
• they aren't taking much damage
• none of their allies are reacting to it at all

Compare that to a group of guards (or goblins) engaging the party, and the PF is just another guard (or goblin) who seems obviously magically dominated and attacking the one of their own. That is a fundamental difference in verisimilitude between the two situations.

If you're facing down an Archmage before level 11 and use PF to pretend it's actually Planar Ally, they're likely going to see through it, as they understand magic and would probably think that it's an illusion, because they won't think you have access to that spell yet. Although, if your party always does that, and they become well known, it'll be surprising when you actually use Planar Ally, and your targets assume it's an illusion.

This would also be different if either the creatures are dumb, or aren't certain what magic can do. Those beings are more likely to immediately believe and not bother investigating.

Also, it does NOT require a Save - PF specifically indicates "The target can use its action to examine the phantasm with an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC"

First point:

Again, I do not believe the "realism" of your phantasmal force illusion has anything to do with whether or not the target believes it is plausible. The text of the spell explicitly states,
"While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm". They are affected, they treat even a severed dragon head appearing out of nowhere as though it were 100% real. Any inconsistencies or implausibilities, any part of the creatures brain that says "Hey wait a minute, this doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense!" is explicitly rationalized away by the effect of the spell. You cannot believe something is real at the same time you think "well, this is just too ridiculous, it couldn't possibly be real", unless you want to delve into cognitive dissonance but that's a whole other can of worms best left unopened. The point is, when you cast Phantasmal Force and make it seem as though you've summoned a planar ally, you don't have to make it seem plausible; that enemy wizard will make up his own explanation for how it is possible. You must have gotten hold of a scroll, or you were truly hiding your power from him this whole time, or you managed to call in a favor from the gods, etc. It is all rationalized away by the targets own mind, so any incongruities truly don't matter to the target in the first place.

Second point:

It does require a save. "The target must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, you create a phantasmal object, (etc)". The creature may ALSO use it's action at a later date to make an investigation check, though I would find it suspect if any creature or player chose to do so because again, their character explicitly believes in the realness of whatever entity is created through the spell, so deciding to investigate to see if it's REALLY real seems like a rather strange course of action, unless of course they are prompted by allies they trust implicitly.

[Vogie]

It does require a save. "The target must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, you create a phantasmal object, (etc)". The creature may ALSO use it's action at a later date to make an investigation check, though I would find it suspect if any creature or player chose to do so because again, their character explicitly believes in the realness of whatever entity is created through the spell, so deciding to investigate to see if it's REALLY real seems like a rather strange course of action, unless of course they are prompted by allies they trust implicitly.

Ah, I misunderstood your reference. good point.

[RedMage125]

As stated, PF must be static, and that's one of the best ways to lock down a target with a 2nd level spell.

First time I ever cast it, our DM put us in an arena-style PVP situation (this was also my last session with that table, as I detest PvP). Other player knows I'm a wizard, sees me casting a spell. He failed his INT save, so he saw a tight, circular barrier of floating, spinning magical blades all around him. The psychic damage he took, he believed, was him getting cut by said blades. He couldn't pass the Investigation check for beans, and another player's summoned fire elemental took him out.

Historically, interacting with an illusion in D&D usually grants a bonus on breaking the effect. Disbelief happens when you realize something's weird about it. Any sort of interaction with the illusion is bound to trigger disbelief.

Other people have been covering this to other posters, but you DO get a chance to disbelieve. That's the Investigation check. PF explicitly states that a target who failed the initial save will continue to rationalize any "something weird about it" that come from interaction with it. Your example of an illusionary goblin that you tried to stab? You believe that the goblin dodged. Even if you rolled a natural 20 on the die, that is a metagame concept your character has no awareness of. You just missed this dodging goblin.

[Segev]

Your example of an illusionary goblin that you tried to stab? You believe that the goblin dodged. Even if you rolled a natural 20 on the die, that is a metagame concept your character has no awareness of. You just missed this dodging goblin.

This is actually a good example of why you should use hp as an abstraction of multiple things being represented, including physical damage ("meat"), skill, luck, stamina, and wahtever else you use to keep an otherwise-lethal blow from doing more than cosmetic damage. If it is, that nat 20 lets you ask the player to roll the dice, and report that his damage resulted in a graze to the goblin's cheek. The player now wonders just how many hp this goblin has, while the character keeps having trouble landing decisive blows.

[Kyutaru]

Again, I do not believe the "realism" of your phantasmal force illusion has anything to do with whether or not the target believes it is plausible. The text of the spell explicitly states,
"While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm". They are affected, they treat even a severed dragon head appearing out of nowhere as though it were 100% real. Any inconsistencies or implausibilities, any part of the creatures brain that says "Hey wait a minute, this doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense!" is explicitly rationalized away by the effect of the spell.

This is an incorrect reading of the spell description. The spell states you rationalize illogical outcomes from INTERACTING with the illusion. So walking off an illusory bridge is rationalized as you must have slipped, not that there was never a bridge in the first place. The target remains convinced the bridge exists, just as it would be convinced the goblin exists. This does however trigger potential moments for using their Intelligence check to interact with the illusion to CONFIRM that it exists, especially after repeated moments where this rationalization has to occur.

Yet nothing is stated that the target must be thoroughly convinced of the incredibility of the spell, you're confusing that point with the interaction bit. The target is being mind controlling into believing it's real, this we know. But a pink unicorn with rainbow wings that fires hearts from its eyes? You might be convinced its real but you might also want to examine it closer if for no other reason than the sheer strangeness of the beast. The Intelligence check is not a "use action to disbelieve" roll. It's a use action to look closer roll. Any sort of strangeness or out of place from reality illusion is going to beg the user to understand what it is, even if it were 100% real. Heck, I have players asking if they could make these checks on completely living creatures hoping to glean some insight into what they are.

Illusions are much more potent than mind control because they cause the target to truly believe what happened actually happened and leads them to actions they might not be capable of taking under a dominated state. This is also a lvl 2 spell compared to lvl 5 dominate, and unlike the simple actions a target undertakes, illusions can convince them of events that never occurred. I'm sorry if you think that this is just your lvl 2 mind control spell and you can do whatever you want with it but there are indeed limits that will be enforced and the spell itself does not specify when those limits are reached (that's up to the DM).

[sithlordnergal]

You can start to disbelieve immediately, especially if you summoned a pink unicorn with rainbow wings that shoots hearts out its eyes. Don't quote RAW when you're trying to make an effect follow the target when it's one that the wizard creates and maintains himself. It's as homing as your caster's imagination is and has a range of 60 feet, so beyond that the spell stops working.

I have experience dealing with illusions in past editions and will continue to adjudicate them based on the common sense rules that once applied as part of RAW and still make sense for a skill check call, as the spell doesn't say when the target starts making intelligence checks. It could easily be immediately.

And like normal saving throws already allow, I am perfectly capable of granting the target Advantage on the saving throw if he's earned it by interacting with an unbelievable illusion.

Well, I think the big issue on disbelief is this clause right here in the spell description: "The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm. For example, a target attempting to walk across a phantasmal bridge that spans a chasm falls once it steps onto the bridge. If the target survives the fall, it still believes that the bridge exists and comes up with some other explanation for its fall—it was pushed, it slipped, or a strong wind might have knocked it off."

The illusionary bridge hasn't disappeared, the target can still see it, and the target rationalizes something else caused it to happen. That Pink Unicorn with rainbow wings that shoots hearts? It must have been a summon or some sort of special Cleric spell.

[Kyutaru]

Well, I think the big issue on disbelief is this clause right here in the spell description: "The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm. For example, a target attempting to walk across a phantasmal bridge that spans a chasm falls once it steps onto the bridge. If the target survives the fall, it still believes that the bridge exists and comes up with some other explanation for its fall—it was pushed, it slipped, or a strong wind might have knocked it off."

The illusionary bridge hasn't disappeared, the target can still see it, and the target rationalizes something else caused it to happen. That Pink Unicorn with rainbow wings that shoots hearts? It must have been a summon or some sort of special Cleric spell.

Already addressed above.

Rationalizing strange interactions =/= handwaving implausibilities of the existence

Devil's Advocate: Great, now show me where in the spell it states on which round the target starts performing Intelligence checks to examine the illusion. Failing this, we can assume immediately is an option.

[RedMage125]

Already addressed above.

Rationalizing strange interactions =/= handwaving implausibilities of the existence

Devil's Advocate: Great, now show me where in the spell it states on which round the target starts performing Intelligence checks to examine the illusion. Failing this, we can assume immediately is an option.

Isn't performing an investigation check an Action?

So...on the target's turn.

Man, that was easy.

And I don't know why the "pink unicorn with rainbow wings" is viewed by you as some kind of "totally nonsense" thing to see, in a world where Fey and their chaotic magic is a thing. And summoning spells.

Furthermore, it's a bit of a ridiculous example, isn't it? Why would a caster choose to craft an illusion that the target would find as jarring? Why not summon something that could believably be summoned? Last weekend, I interrogated a prisoner (who we learned was afraid of cats) by using PF to create the image of a summoned panther in the room, stalking close to him (we had him tied up and unable to flee, and wanted to get him to spill his guts).

[Kyutaru]

Isn't performing an investigation check an Action?

So...on the target's turn.

Man, that was easy.

Not within the context of this thread and my responses were to that effect. I agree that the target would begin performing those actions immediately, not attacking or fleeing from the obviously strange illusion.

I completely agree that a pink unicorn is a ridiculous example. That was the intention and the point. Disbelief is granted an advantage in such a case. I can't keep restating points made previously so I won't be entertaining further debate.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

Not within the context of this thread and my responses were to that effect. I agree that the target would begin performing those actions immediately, not attacking or fleeing from the obviously strange illusion.

I completely agree that a pink unicorn is a ridiculous example. That was the intention and the point. Disbelief is granted an advantage in such a case. I can't keep restating points made previously so I won't be entertaining further debate.

There are two issues I take with this interpretation.

One, it is not RAW at all. Granted you are free to do as you like in your own games and DMs are free to grant advantage or disadvantage for any and all actions they like, of course, but for a strict reading of the text, nowhere is it stated that an illusion being "strange" grants advantage on the attempt to discover it's true nature. What is outright stated is that the target believes the illusion is real if they fail the save. I do not believe it makes any logical sense to see something, no matter how "strange" it is in the setting (such things are subjective and could be argued forever) and believe wholeheartedly it is real, but still find it quite suspicious and suspect it is an illusion. Real things are not illusions. Treating it like you know it is an illusion but simply haven't made the proper save to stop seeing it yet is not in the spirit of treating the illusion as "real". Additionally, "interaction" does not necessarily just mean physical touch. It can mean any reciprocal action or influence; viewing something, fighting with it/fleeing from it/etc certainly count as interactions, so any illogical outcomes are rationalized out. By the very nature of investigating the illusion you must have interacted with it on some level, so you ought to have already been influenced by the magic and rationalized away any inconsistencies or illogical properties of the illusion.

The second issue is more subjective, and on this one I feel we will likely have to simply agree to disagree, but I feel it is equally as important: Interpreting the spell in this way seems to not only hamper player creativity, but actively punishes them for doing anything unexpected or outside the norm. This has little to do with RAW I admit, but I feel something is lost when a creative spell such as this is essentially set up to fail from the get go by the DM. A DM could likely argue that just about any illusion is "strange" enough to warrant advantage on an investigation check; after all, whatever it is just appeared out of thin air and clearly was not there only moments before, so it makes no logical sense and must be some kind of trick. By doing this you unnecessarily nerf what I feel is a creative spell by disregarding its properties and treating it the same as any other illusion, rather than taking into account the deliberate mind-altering effects present in the spell description. This is my own personal opinion, of course, but I thought it was important to put it out there.

[RedMage125]

A DM could likely argue that just about any illusion is "strange" enough to warrant advantage on an investigation check; after all, whatever it is just appeared out of thin air and clearly was not there only moments before, so it makes no logical sense and must be some kind of trick. By doing this you unnecessarily nerf what I feel is a creative spell by disregarding its properties and treating it the same as any other illusion, rather than taking into account the deliberate mind-altering effects present in the spell description. This is my own personal opinion, of course, but I thought it was important to put it out there.

I agree entirely. In a world where people conjure fireballs, ice storms, blade barriers, summoned fey/animals/celestials/fiends -and so on ad nauseum- out of thin air...why would anyone suddenly believe that whatever was conjured by PF is somehow "too strange to be real"?