The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Why? What substantially differentiates Redcloak from The Dark One? TDO is a Lawful Evil goblin who wants equality for all goblinoids and is willing to use any means at his disposal to achieve that. Redcloak is... well, a Lawful Evil goblin who wants equality for all goblinoids and is willing to use any means at his disposal to achieve that, and also is green.
    The Dark One is a lot more overt and honest about his intentions. He's the 'honorable warlord' kind of Lawful Evil. Redcloak, however, is the 'scheming vizier' kind of Lawful Evil who manipulates and works in the shadows and lies to people, including himself.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    The Dark One is a lot more overt and honest about his intentions. He's the 'honorable warlord' kind of Lawful Evil. Redcloak, however, is the 'scheming vizier' kind of Lawful Evil who manipulates and works in the shadows and lies to people, including himself.
    But uh, why would I worship that as opposed to my current god? He worshipped my Dark One in life and did everything so TDO would succeed, why should I bother worshipping some minion when I can worship the legitimate Dark One.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    But uh, why would I worship that as opposed to my current god? He worshipped my Dark One in life and did everything so TDO would succeed, why should I bother worshipping some minion when I can worship the legitimate Dark One.
    You can worship both. That's the whole point of pantheons and polytheistic religions.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    You can worship both. That's the whole point of pantheons and polytheistic religions.
    You can, but that requires more prayer on my part, and it’s perfectly possible to exist in a pantheon without worship from anyone, not something one would want because it seems to kill you, but I feel like to be raised you need more than just a bunch of deaths and whatnot, especially since they are clearly still for TDO, because why would I worship Thor’s pet dog?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    The Dark One is a lot more overt and honest about his intentions. He's the 'honorable warlord' kind of Lawful Evil. Redcloak, however, is the 'scheming vizier' kind of Lawful Evil who manipulates and works in the shadows and lies to people, including himself.
    But Redcloak is lying to the people that he is just like TDO, so.... why would any of them worship him? They would have to know, or at least believe, that he's lying.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-17 at 09:55 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    You can, but that requires more prayer on my part, and it’s perfectly possible to exist in a pantheon without worship from anyone, not something one would want because it seems to kill you, but I feel like to be raised you need more than just a bunch of deaths and whatnot, especially since they are clearly still for TDO, because why would I worship Thor’s pet dog?
    Because Redcloak isn't any mere minion, he's a living legend in his own right. He may have been doing it all in the name of The Dark One, but he was the Supreme Leader, he marched his armies on the gates of Azure City, and he built a nation in the ashes of his people's bitterest foe.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    Because Redcloak isn't any mere minion, he's a living legend in his own right. He may have been doing it all in the name of The Dark One, but he was the Supreme Leader, he marched his armies on the gates of Azure City, and he built a nation in the ashes of his people's bitterest foe.
    Exactly. They practically worship him already in the figurative sense and that's only one step removed from actual religious worship. The hobgoblins seemingly adore him and are blindly loyal to him, the only hints of disapproval being the racist hobgoblin prisoner and what the ill-fated patrol said about Shelby.
    Last edited by hroțila; 2019-09-17 at 10:18 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Of course, it was Xykon who did in Shelby instead of promoting him.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Given what we know about The Dark One it's not that unlikely that Redcloak is the highest level goblin in history (most personally powerful) and likely the most accomplished. There's never been a goblin nation before iirc? Being a warlord is different from being a nation builder.

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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Why? What substantially differentiates Redcloak from The Dark One? TDO is a Lawful Evil goblin who wants equality for all goblinoids and is willing to use any means at his disposal to achieve that. Redcloak is... well, a Lawful Evil goblin who wants equality for all goblinoids and is willing to use any means at his disposal to achieve that, and also is green.
    They could get a Gork and Mork dynamic going. One's cunningly brutal, the other's brutally cunning, and it's never in the same order.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    Exactly. They practically worship him already in the figurative sense and that's only one step removed from actual religious worship. The hobgoblins seemingly adore him and are blindly loyal to him
    Because he's the high priest of The Dark One and also was leader of their nation-state, founded under the banner of TDO.
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Given what we know about The Dark One it's not that unlikely that Redcloak is the highest level goblin in history (most personally powerful) and likely the most accomplished. There's never been a goblin nation before iirc? Being a warlord is different from being a nation builder.
    The hobgoblins were certainly on their way, and their Supreme Leader was blindly followed (which was what gave Reddie his foot in the door there).

    Nothing Redcloak has done seems substantially different than what the Dark One wanted to do, and everything has been done in The Dark One's name. This would be like the northern pantheon having Thor, then Steve, the oddly named dwarf who built a Thoric nation while acting as the high priest of Thor, uniting all Thorites under the banner of Thor. Steve ain't gone get deified, because at best he'd be Thor Jr.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Just because he did it in The Dark One's name doesn't mean he didn't make the decisions and do the leg work.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Nothing Redcloak has done seems substantially different than what the Dark One wanted to do, and everything has been done in The Dark One's name. This would be like the northern pantheon having Thor, then Steve, the oddly named dwarf who built a Thoric nation while acting as the high priest of Thor, uniting all Thorites under the banner of Thor. Steve ain't gone get deified, because at best he'd be Thor Jr.
    Counterpoint: Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves.

    If the Northern Pantheon was less populous, I could easily see Dvalin becoming more than a mere demigod.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    Counterpoint: Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves.

    If the Northern Pantheon was less populous, I could easily see Dvalin becoming more than a mere demigod.
    Was Dvalin high Priest of Thor who did everything for Thor? If the answer isn’t yes than it’s not the same thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Because he's the high priest of The Dark One and also was leader of their nation-state, founded under the banner of TDO.
    I really don't see why that would matter when it comes to worshipping Redcloak, but regardless, from what we've seen, the goblinoids care about Redcloak as their leader more than they do about Redcloak as their high priest, which is an aspect of Redcloak they haven't discussed at all on panel. In fact, IIRC, the only non-cleric goblinoids who talk about the Dark One at all are Right-Eye (eventually in a negative way), Oona (in a neutral and more or less detached way) and Redcloak's potential date in SOD (in a positive and clearly devout way). In my opinion, the vast majority of goblinoids figuratively-worship Redcloak for his own sake, not as an agent of the Dark One, and that's how he'd come to be for-reals-worshipped.
    Last edited by hroțila; 2019-09-17 at 11:50 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Was Dvalin high Priest of Thor who did everything for Thor? If the answer isn’t yes than it’s not the same thing.
    One, we can't really prove he wasn't. Not that it matters too much one way or the other because...

    Two, of course it isn't the same thing, but it's a decent analogue. Redcloak is the First Supreme Leader of Gobbotopia- he's the one who led their army to glory and conquest against the Azurites. He did it in The Dark One's name, yes, but the crucial bit is that he did it. Not The Dark One. Him. Redcloak.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Evil people are tortured on the lower planes, but that's because they're surrounded by other evil creatures, not because of some systematic policy.

    You START as a 2HD petitioner, no matter how strong you were in life. Which means everyone enters at the bottom of the heap in a dog eat dog utterly ruthless world where there are epic level creatures in large numbers, so it doesn't matter how strong you were in life, you're nothing much in death.

    ...

    I would not care to count on the Dark One's good will in the afterlife when a tool is no longer of significant use to him. This is a god whose alleged GOOD deed was to try extortion rather than murder.
    Note that outside of Start of Darkness [and other non-web material] Xykon's reason for becoming a lich is entirely to avoid this future: it is completely reasonable that Redcloak's (and Belkar's) future won't be good.

    Redcloak's future also entirely depends on the passing the "don't screw this up" test. Should he fail (and the order & gods manage to keep the universe together), he can expect an eternity in the Dark One's torture facilities...

    I've been assuming that Belkar would have a bit more of an advantage on the plains of Hades (battlefield), but that is still the best means for him to truly become the "sexy shoeless god of war".

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    One, we can't really prove he wasn't. Not that it matters too much one way or the other because...

    Two, of course it isn't the same thing, but it's a decent analogue. Redcloak is the First Supreme Leader of Gobbotopia- he's the one who led their army to glory and conquest against the Azurites. He did it in The Dark One's name, yes, but the crucial bit is that he did it. Not The Dark One. Him. Redcloak.
    Did he even do it in the Dark One's name? I don't recall him being invoked at any point in the battle.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    I really don't see why that would matter when it comes to worshipping Redcloak, but regardless, from what we've seen, the goblinoids care about Redcloak as their leader more than they do about Redcloak as their high priest, which is an aspect of Redcloak they haven't discussed at all on panel. In fact, IIRC, the only non-cleric goblinoids who talk about the Dark One at all are Right-Eye (eventually in a negative way), Oona (in a neutral and more or less detached way) and Redcloak's potential date in SOD (in a positive and clearly devout way). In my opinion, the vast majority of goblinoids figuratively-worship Redcloak for his own sake, not as an agent of the Dark One, and that's how he'd come to be for-reals-worshipped.
    You just named the other two significant goblinoids who aren’t clerics, Right-Eye only grew detached through the Plan (which was only known by a few) and Oona and the bugbears explicitly don’t care about TDO, or Redcloak and are seperate from the other goblinoids, Jirix is Well-liked and the first thing he brings up is TDO, to massive applause for everything he says.
    Quote Originally Posted by HorizonWalker View Post
    One, we can't really prove he wasn't. Not that it matters too much one way or the other because...

    Two, of course it isn't the same thing, but it's a decent analogue. Redcloak is the First Supreme Leader of Gobbotopia- he's the one who led their army to glory and conquest against the Azurites. He did it in The Dark One's name, yes, but the crucial bit is that he did it. Not The Dark One. Him. Redcloak.
    I think the important thing is he explicitly always puts TDO above him, every single time he leads, showing he does it in a way that won’t cause him to be remembered as a god.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Did he even do it in the Dark One's name? I don't recall him being invoked at any point in the battle.
    Their national flag is three stars of goblin colors under one purple star. When the high priest cedes control, another priest is put in charge. Every indication is that Gobbotopia is a theocracy under TDO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I think the important thing is he explicitly always puts TDO above him, every single time he leads, showing he does it in a way that won’t cause him to be remembered as a god.
    In a nutshell, exactly.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-09-17 at 12:04 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    I disagree that explicit submission to a higher deity would preclude Redcloak from being worshipped. Obvious real-world religion reference not included.
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I think the important thing is he explicitly always puts TDO above him, every single time he leads, showing he does it in a way that won’t cause him to be remembered as a god.
    Honestly, I don't feel as if this is a disqualifier. After all, multiple polytheistic religions have one god 'above' the others (Zeus, Odin, sort of Ra/Osiris). Any new affiliates of TDO pantheon would probably be of lower rank than TDO, whether they worshipped him in life or not. And while in most cases, many of the gods of polytheistic religions are usually of a single deific family, some of them included promotion of real life mortals, such as in Rome and Egypt, where major leaders such as Caesars and Pharaohs would be 'deified' and prayed to after their death.
    In a slightly more controversial example, even monotheistic religions have saints or other major figures that can be to some extent prayed to, even though they are all clearly on a lower order than the one god.

    To top it off, Oots has VERY clearly established that these pantheons can readily expand with mortals.

    Most other addendums I had on the subject were perfectly well expressed by hroțila.
    Last edited by Darkone; 2019-09-17 at 12:45 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Again, i'd say the biggest flaw in the "Redcloak ascends" senarciuo is the one where he gets rewarded. Why should an evil ******* getting to continue being an evil ******* but now as a god, be considered a happy and fulfilling ending?

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    BTW, it isn't worrisome at all that a personality cult will turn the worshipped person in a honest-to-God god.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Again, i'd say the biggest flaw in the "Redcloak ascends" senarciuo is the one where he gets rewarded. Why should an evil ******* getting to continue being an evil ******* but now as a god, be considered a happy and fulfilling ending?
    Yeah I don't think it will happen for this thematic reason but I think that given what we know about the OOTS universe it would be a reasonable possibility if not for story reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Again, i'd say the biggest flaw in the "Redcloak ascends" senarciuo is the one where he gets rewarded. Why should an evil ******* getting to continue being an evil ******* but now as a god, be considered a happy and fulfilling ending?
    Well with another purple god, that increases the chances of there being a purple god who will work with the others to save the world for good. As a side effect of the dark one no longer being the sole gate keeper of sponsorship into the pantheon, the chances of neutral and then good gods ascending to purple also increases.

    It is also possible that if Redcloak did ascend, it would be after a heel realization or possibly even full blown heel face turn.

    I don't think it's particularly likely he'll ascend at all, but if he does I expect it would be, narratively, to facilitate the world not ending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Well with another purple god, that increases the chances of there being a purple god who will work with the others to save the world for good. As a side effect of the dark one no longer being the sole gate keeper of sponsorship into the pantheon, the chances of neutral and then good gods ascending to purple also increases.

    It is also possible that if Redcloak did ascend, it would be after a heel realization or possibly even full blown heel face turn.

    I don't think it's particularly likely he'll ascend at all, but if he does I expect it would be, narratively, to facilitate the world not ending.
    A. Redcloak's still Evil.
    B. Fair point.

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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Maybe he becomes the Patron Deity of Thresholds- both in that he helps keep the Gates closed, and he's an object lesson in which lines you shouldn't cross.

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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    As I understand it, in the OotS-verse a soul's disposition is first done by pantheon. Note that Roy was already separated from the Azurites before any kind of judgement. Also note that the different pantheons have been shown to be able to do basically nothing together without great difficulty.

    I'm not sure how exactly Roy was matched with the deva that judged his case, but I think it's fair to assume that the northern gods (collectively) set that policy.

    Also I'm not sure if the dark one puts stock in the standard alignment system, so I think a goblin's fate is determined solely by what The Dark One thinks of you.


    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Did he even do it in the Dark One's name? I don't recall him being invoked at any point in the battle.
    He did it in his mother's name. page #422, last panel.
    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    I disagree that explicit submission to a higher deity would preclude Redcloak from being worshipped. Obvious real-world religion reference not included.
    More than one religion does that.

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    Default Re: If Redcloak died, where would he go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    As I understand it, in the OotS-verse a soul's disposition is first done by pantheon. Note that Roy was already separated from the Azurites before any kind of judgement. Also note that the different pantheons have been shown to be able to do basically nothing together without great difficulty.

    I'm not sure how exactly Roy was matched with the deva that judged his case, but I think it's fair to assume that the northern gods (collectively) set that policy.

    Also I'm not sure if the dark one puts stock in the standard alignment system, so I think a goblin's fate is determined solely by what The Dark One thinks of you.
    Odds are if there was a Good Goblin (I dunno, maybe that one dead hobgoblin?) who worshipped TDO but wasn't a Cleric they would be sent to the standard Good afterlife? Or maybe they'd go to TDO's place and fight the battles anyways?

    We're nearing the point where we probably need to cite someone's work in order to get an idea.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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