Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XVI: Where the Ordnance is Hand-Delivered!

[Voidhawk]

I've definitely seen the Emperor and Horus both statted up somewhere, but I can't remember where. Might have been a White Dwarf, back in the day? They cost something like 5,000pts each, and had a rule that said if they died you instantly lost.

[Lord Torath]

From the Warhammer 40K Tabletop thread:

Cheesegear, I've got to ask: what will your reaction be if/when they Primaris-ise Dorn, and the rules suck?

Rogal Dorn's a primarch, right? Can Primarchs undergo "Primarisizing"?

Also, to clarify on the "primarisization" process: Is it really just implanting two sets of geneseed and all the implants? Or, if that's not quite right, it involves implanting some of the same implants that would otherwise go into a fresh initiate?

I presume that the normal creation of a primaris marine just involves implanting all the extra organs at the same time the regular organs would be implanted in the initiate?

How are the progenoids affected by the Primarisization process? Does the marine now produce two sets of geneseed?

[The Glyphstone]

Rogal Dorn is also dead, isn't he? I think that's a bigger barrier than being a Primarch.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Assuming they survive, the Marine reawakens as a Primaris, though he still needs all the relevant hypnotherapy to be able to engage his new organs. Apparently he also tends to undergo a notable shift in personality - the recipient takes on character traits of the Marine from whom the secondary gene-seed was harvested, and even their facial features can grow to resemble their predecessor.

That's odd. As I understand it the gene-seed shouldn't be absorbing and passing on traits from its previous host, just the stuff that was coded into it before (i.e. genetic data from the Primarch).

I mean, if a Primaris dies and his gene-seed is used to make another Primaris, will they have the same face and personality too?

[JNAProductions]

That's odd. As I understand it the gene-seed shouldn't be absorbing and passing on traits from its previous host, just the stuff that was coded into it before (i.e. genetic data from the Primarch).

I mean, if a Primaris dies and his gene-seed is used to make another Primaris, will they have the same face and personality too?

Sounds like heresy logic HERESY! to me.

[Wraith]

Can Primarchs undergo "Primarisizing"?/

Untested, but probably not. No one knows exactly how Primarchs are made, but it doesn't seem to involve gene-seed. It seems to be an entirely different process, one that doesn't start with an ordinary human and growing them into something better via gene therapy, but by growing them entirely from scratch using archaic genetic experimentation and...

Spoiler

Show

...Sorcery.

Also, to clarify on the "primarisization" process: Is it really just implanting two sets of geneseed and all the implants? Or, if that's not quite right, it involves implanting some of the same implants that would otherwise go into a fresh initiate?

Bare in mind that a new Codex is coming out in a week or two and it will specifically include a bunch of Astartes characters who have recently been turned into Primaris, so there will probably be a lot more written about the process very soon.

For now; To turn a human into a Primaris, yes. Primaris have all the same implants than an Astartes has and a few more - they all get implanted at various points in their development and the recipient gets indoctrinated with hypnotherapy that stimulates the organs' growth and teaches the recipient how to "activate" them.

Turning an Astartes into a Primaris is more or less the same, albeit the last 3 organs are implanted at a far later stage than would be normal. The process requires significantly more after-care and is immensely dangerous - even more so than the process of turning a human into an Astartes - but is fairly "straight forward".

How are the progenoids affected by the Primarisization process? Does the marine now produce two sets of geneseed?

Apparently not, as far as I can tell. The process seems to be binary - they either produce Astartes or Primaris genetic material as appropriate, there's no hybridization in between where they produce both.

That's odd. As I understand it the gene-seed shouldn't be absorbing and passing on traits from its previous host, just the stuff that was coded into it before (i.e. genetic data from the Primarch).

I mean, if a Primaris dies and his gene-seed is used to make another Primaris, will they have the same face and personality too?

"Shouldn't be" is the key phrase here, but geneseed is weird.

There is precedent for geneseed to change the attitude and appearance of a recipient - hence characters like Abaddon and "Little Horus" Aximund, whose faces have been changed to look so much like their Primarch by the implantation process that it is sometimes rumoured that they might be clones rather than mere gene-sons. Implanting more geneseed causing more changes, makes as much sense as anything else.

Is that an intended side-effect of geneseed? Who knows. The Emperor was never forthcoming on his methods or intentions, and the Adeptus Astartes were rushed out of the factory as an emergency measure after the Primarch Project was sabotaged so maybe it's a complete accident.

Does Primaris geneseed do the same thing to human recipients? Hard to tell; a lot of side-effects, like the Canix Helix mutation and the Black Rage of the Blood Angels, were removed by Bellisarius Cawl and I don't think much more has been written on what else he changed to accurately say either way.

Why does it happen when an Astartes undergoes the Calgarian Rite? Don't know - so far it's only been mentioned in one novel, which predates the upcoming Codex, and that happened to a guy who was a different Chapter to that of the donor so maybe it was a fiercely pronounced effect that wouldn't happen to other Astartes from the same Chapter?

[Grim Portent]

Wasn't there already some fluff about geneseed absorbing traits from it's host and giving future recipients of the lineage derived from it the possibility of resembling their 'ancestor' in various respects?

[Wraith]

Wasn't there already some fluff about geneseed absorbing traits from it's host and giving future recipients of the lineage derived from it the possibility of resembling their 'ancestor in various respects?

The Newborn was an Iron Warrior made from the stolen geneseed of Uriel Venris. He was instrumental in Honsou's invasion of Ultramar because, through the genetic memory of his geneseed, he had access to Ventris' memories of the Ultramarines' military protocols.

The Sons of Horus and the Alpha Legion are also noted as having their physical features altered by the implantation process - the former tending to look like Horus to a greater or lesser degree, and the latter tending to look very similar to each other regardless of what they looked like as humans.

I'm sure there's another novel that mentioned this in particular - I'm sure it's another Ultramarine who gets implanted with the geneseed of a fairly famous Captain or something like that, and its remarked upon that he acts somewhat like his predecessor... Damned if I can remember anything more about it, though.

[Destro_Yersul]

The Newborn was an Iron Warrior made from the stolen geneseed of Uriel Venris. He was instrumental in Honsou's invasion of Ultramar because, through the genetic memory of his geneseed, he had access to Ventris' memories of the Ultramarines' military protocols.

The Sons of Horus and the Alpha Legion are also noted as having their physical features altered by the implantation process - the former tending to look like Horus to a greater or lesser degree, and the latter tending to look very similar to each other regardless of what they looked like as humans.

I'm sure there's another novel that mentioned this in particular - I'm sure it's another Ultramarine who gets implanted with the geneseed of a fairly famous Captain or something like that, and its remarked upon that he acts somewhat like his predecessor... Damned if I can remember anything more about it, though.

There's a short story involving a chaos marine promising to hunt and kill a particular Imperial Fist forever. Which he does: every time that geneseed is used to make another space marine, that marine inherits the eye colour of his genetic ancestor. Every time, this chaos marine shows up to take his skull. He's taken the skull of the "same" guy hundreds of times.

[Cheesegear]

Rogal Dorn is also dead, isn't he?

If you don't find the body, they're alive.

EDIT: While I'm here.

Spoiler

Show

GW knows that the pilots of Vehicles are red. Hobbyists, however, do not.

[Voidhawk]

From the Warhammer 40K Tabletop thread:Rogal Dorn's a primarch, right? Can Primarchs undergo "Primarisizing"?

Also, to clarify on the "primarisization" process: Is it really just implanting two sets of geneseed and all the implants? Or, if that's not quite right, it involves implanting some of the same implants that would otherwise go into a fresh initiate?

I presume that the normal creation of a primaris marine just involves implanting all the extra organs at the same time the regular organs would be implanted in the initiate?

How are the progenoids affected by the Primarisization process? Does the marine now produce two sets of geneseed?

I just miss-spoke: I meant to ask about Lysander but got mixed up.

[Silverraptor]

If you don't find the body, they're alive.

Head canon!

[Lord Torath]

Was that cribbed from something else? Any speech that wasn't Dorn's was nearly impossible to catch

[The Glyphstone]

Was that cribbed from something else? Any speech that wasn't Dorn's was nearly impossible to catch

That's because it was a compilation, I think - snapcuts of Dorn from every TTS episode hes been in.

[JNAProductions]

So, how bad would it be to have a non-Chaos, non-Imperium band of former Imperials?

Say, a Space Marine Chapter and a Guard Regiment that got fed up with the Imperium and, while they were prepared to let the G-Man make everything better and be worth sticking around, aren't satisfied with what he did and so split off into their own little corner of the galaxy.

[Cheesegear]

So, how bad would it be to have a non-Chaos, non-Imperium band of former Imperials?

You're talking about going Renegade. So...Very.

they aren't satisfied with what he did and so split off into their own little corner of the galaxy.

To do what?

[Forum Explorer]

So, how bad would it be to have a non-Chaos, non-Imperium band of former Imperials?

Say, a Space Marine Chapter and a Guard Regiment that got fed up with the Imperium and, while they were prepared to let the G-Man make everything better and be worth sticking around, aren't satisfied with what he did and so split off into their own little corner of the galaxy.

Not super bad. Honestly, with the Imperium currently being shattered, it even makes sense for a system or two on the other side of the warp thingy to basically go independent. Or literally in this case.

[LansXero]

Not super bad. Honestly, with the Imperium currently being shattered, it even makes sense for a system or two on the other side of the warp thingy to basically go independent. Or literally in this case.

not bad as in 'this could happen and has likely happened'; very bad as in 'you'll get purged if they ever find about it'

[JNAProductions]

not bad as in 'this could happen and has likely happened'; very bad as in 'you'll get purged if they ever find about it'

Makes sense to me. Thanks all.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

So, this question is simultaneously very important and unimportant:

Do Primaris Marines have bikes?

White Scars and their successors need to know.

[LeSwordfish]

There has been no sign of it so far. I would be unsurprised if they didn't turn up at some point but for now Primaris White Scars are restricted to Inceptors and marines in tanks.

EDIT: Thematically, I mean: ruleswise you can do what you want.

[Wraith]

The diplomatic answer is "Not yet".

There are very vague rumours about them appearing on the table-top in the Autumn alongside a new Space Wolves book, and there's nothing about being a Primaris that stops them from riding a (bigger) bike... We just haven't seen them so far.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

There has been no sign of it so far. I would be unsurprised if they didn't turn up at some point but for now Primaris White Scars are restricted to Inceptors and marines in tanks.

EDIT: Thematically, I mean: ruleswise you can do what you want.

Well this is the fluff thread so it’s all good. I was wondering if any of the novels or supplemental material might have hinted at currently model-less Primaris unit types. And if any of those were bikes.

I’m fine either way. Let the Primaris and the Traditional Marines have their niches. You don’t need a bike to hunt, really.

[Wraith]

If we follow the pattern that has already been set by Astartes-versus-Primaris Vehicles - Astartes get Rhinos, Primaris get Repulsors; Astartes get Land Raiders, Primaris get Executioners - then it's not entirely unlikely that Primaris Marines will end up on jetbikes, like Custodes.

I have absolutely no basis for that suggestion, it just feels like something that might happen.

[Lord Torath]

I was also going to suggest jetbikes for the primaris marines. Back in Rogue Trader days, marines had them. I specifically remember a model of a techmarine on a jetbike. I think the IG might have had them as well.

Anyone know where you can find pdfs of old Citadel catalogs? I've got some original 1993 and 1995 catalogs, but they're falling apart.

[Wraith]

Legally, no. I don't believe that GW has ever reproduced their catalogues digitally, which means that anything you found would have to have been a rip/scan/upload.

[snowblizz]

Various communities that deal with collecting Citadel Miniatures used to have most of the catalogues available. But I guess see above poster too.

[Drasius]

I'd wager you could find what you're after in any of the dedicated "Oldhammer" groups around, they usually know where to source ye olde tyme stuff.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Can a wearer of power armor put it on and take it off without assistance? Obviously things like helmets can be removed at will, but what about the rest of it. I'm curious to know if any canon text or image/video has ever depicted the process.

[Wraith]

Power Armour is welded into place. While some parts - usually the gloves and boots - can be removed by the wearer, most of it requires specialist tools to put on or remove, so either a small team of armoury slaves or another Astartes takes turns to help them 'get dressed'.

I remember one source - I think it was the Blood Angels series of novels, but I wouldn't swear to it - that depict a suit of Power Armour to function even without the backpack, which is where the power-plant and cooling system system is kept. At the time the Marines in question were walking around slowly and talking to each other, and before leaving to do something more laborious they backed into a machine which bolted their backpack into place. Given that it's a separate piece to the back of the cuirass ('vest') and is incredibly heavy, that seems to be the tricky part; I can't imagine a sensible way in which a wearer could affix or remove it by themselves without help, especially if their armour is de-powered.