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Thread: House of X

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    HandOfShadows what is your read on Uncanny X-Men 210 (1986) ?

    Since it is a 25 page issue I am specifically referring to the subplot of this chapter where Nightcrawler is being chased by a mob due to him scarring some kids due to his blue elf appearance and Nightcrawler can not run away due to him not having his teleportation powers at the time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    HandOfShadows what is your read on Uncanny X-Men 210 (1986) ?

    Since it is a 25 page issue I am specifically referring to the subplot of this chapter where Nightcrawler is being chased by a mob due to him scarring some kids due to his blue elf appearance and Nightcrawler can not run away due to him not having his teleportation powers at the time?
    Panic at seeing a DEMON!

    Honestly, how would you react if something that was clearly not human showed up in your neighborhood and you heard it had attacked some children? More than likely you would react in much the same way or at least have the impulse to do so. Particularly if herd (mob) mentality rears it's ugly head. It's part of human nature to react violently to what people see as a threat, even when there isn't a threat. To the mob, Kurt was a strange monster. Of course Kurt isn't a monster, he only has a mother who is one. I would also point that Spider Man has a looong history of attacks by civilians and police, so mutants are the only ones it happens to.
    Last edited by HandofShadows; 2019-09-25 at 08:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    Panic at seeing a DEMON!

    Honestly, how would you react if something that was clearly not human showed up in your neighborhood and you heard it had attacked some children? More than likely you would react in much the same way or at least have the impulse to do so. Particularly if herd (mob) mentality rears it's ugly head. It's part of human nature to react violently to what people see as a threat, even when there isn't a threat. To the mob, Kurt was a strange monster. Of course Kurt isn't a monster, he only has a mother who is one. I would also point that Spider Man has a looong history of attacks by civilians and police, so mutants are the only ones it happens to.
    So we should just "take it?" All of human history is created by human nature and human decisions. Human nature can lead to what is best in us and what is worse in us. Human nature is a fickle oracle and should not just be excused blindly.

    To just hand wave and say human nature exist is to enslave ourselves to human nature. To let your passions and pathos (suffering, experience) control you and turn you into a machine or into an animal. When you are such a state you are a threat to all things in society for you can not be reason with for you have excused yourself to consequence, saying you are above consequence because I am just following "human nature," I choose to embrace my mob instincts.

    We have multiple human voices inside of us, multiple human natures, and we must choose to elevate some voices and to not allow other voices to control our decisions. If we do not do this and merel allow the loudest voices inside our head to control our actions... well this is literally the definition of Barbarism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    So we should just "take it?" All of human history is created by human nature and human decisions. Human nature can lead to what is best in us and what is worse in us. Human nature is a fickle oracle and should not just be excused blindly.

    To just hand wave and say human nature exist is to enslave ourselves to human nature. To let your passions and pathos (suffering, experience) control you and turn you into a machine or into an animal. When you are such a state you are a threat to all things in society for you can not be reason with for you have excused yourself to consequence, saying you are above consequence because I am just following "human nature," I choose to embrace my mob instincts.

    We have multiple human voices inside of us, multiple human natures, and we must choose to elevate some voices and to not allow other voices to control our decisions. If we do not do this and merel allow the loudest voices inside our head to control our actions... well this is literally the definition of Barbarism.
    Understanding behavior is not the same as excusing that behavior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Understanding behavior is not the same as excusing that behavior.
    Maybe I am not clear enough with my language. "What is your read" was saying what is your PERSONAL read? How do YOU feel about it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Maybe I am not clear enough with my language. "What is your read" was saying what is your PERSONAL read? How do YOU feel about it?
    It reads as a bigoted mob trying to take out their frustrations on what they see as an easy target. They know he's not a demon, just a mutant, and not only that they know he's not fighting back and don't think he's actually dangerous. Just someone different that they can vent their frustrations on. It's a lynch mob pure and simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    It reads as a bigoted mob trying to take out their frustrations on what they see as an easy target. They know he's not a demon, just a mutant, and not only that they know he's not fighting back and don't think he's actually dangerous. Just someone different that they can vent their frustrations on. It's a lynch mob pure and simple.
    Nods that is my read as well. They knew he was a "mutie" [their word] and not a demon. The women in the mob even question Kitty Pryde how dare you question my motives do you talk to your elders that way? No crime but they do not recongize the law restrains all of them, since nightcrawler is a mutie they self impose the authority to do a Lynch mob even though nightcrawler did nothing wrong. [And Lynch mobs are never rational but emotional and contagius, they seek to be objects of terror and they disregard the concepts of rational, reasonable, ethical and legal by design.]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Maybe I am not clear enough with my language. "What is your read" was saying what is your PERSONAL read? How do YOU feel about it?
    I would have thought that my saying this "It's part of human nature to react violently to what people see as a threat, even when there isn't a threat. To the mob, Kurt was a strange monster. Of course Kurt isn't a monster" would have made it clear that the mob was dead wrong. Now if it had been Kurt's mother it would have been a totally different story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    I would have thought that my saying this "It's part of human nature to react violently to what people see as a threat, even when there isn't a threat. To the mob, Kurt was a strange monster. Of course Kurt isn't a monster" would have made it clear that the mob was dead wrong. Now if it had been Kurt's mother it would have been a totally different story.
    This is right, it's understandable, even if it is reprehensible how those people could behave that way, which brings me back to the whole. Understanding, doesn't mean condoning. You have to know why people do things before you can change them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
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    Age of Apocalypse was the result of aNuclear War that Apocalypse started in a universe where Charles Xavier died before forming the X-Men and house of M was the result of a crazed Reality Warper.

    They are not potential futures of the main timeline and have no bearing anything in the main timeline.

    Beyond that, it's only evil mutants who try to wipe out humans. Not even all Evil Mutants.

    Seriously, Magneto's plans when he was in his world domination phase involved humans being second class citizens at worst. The one-time Magneto actually tried killing humans en mass, it was quickly revealed that it was an imposter.

    Trying to genocide mutants because one mutant tried to genocide humans only kills innocent people. the people who actually commited the crimes are never among the ones who get rounded up or killed.

    And that's always the result. Apocalypse or Selene or someone will try to wipe out humans or take over the world, the X-Men will stop them, and humanity responds by pointing at the evil mutant, saying "look, they're dangerous," and an anti-mutant measure happens and the X-Men are rewarded for saving the world by having to try to survive a genocide and they're probably losing at least one member or a kid from the school.

    It's reasonable to feel (morally) superior to the people who respond to you saving their lives by trying to kill you. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twenty god damn times and you can go screw yourself."

    Also, again, if they let Sabretooth stay in the human prison it would establish a precedent for ignoring Krkoan diplomatic immunity.

    They flat out say it's okay if they don't unchain Sabretooth before they hand him over, which is basically saying that he's going to be tried and imprisoned on Krokoa.
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    Magneto threatened to ruin the planet (by manipulating the poles) if he didn't get Genosha.

    And you are missing the point, if mutants didn't exist no one would have to worry about them taking over the world or destroying it. (That's how a Purifier would see it.) As for Sabertooth, remember what he as doing when he was caught? He had just slaughtered a bunch of guard at Damage Control. And Sabertooth was there on *The X-Men's orders*. If you think that they didn't know Sabertooth wouldn't go on a killing spree you are lying to yourself. In fact it would be no surprise if they didn't plan for something like that to happen considering how fast Cyclops showed up. And Mystique who was there also probably took part and nothing at all happened to her. Those guards where not bad guys, they were just doing there job providing security for a company. Innocents. Of course Xavier doesn't seem to have a problem with innocents being killed, do long as they aren't mutants (and he could "bring back" the mutants that are killed.) Because of the memories he got from MacTaggart, he knew what would happen in the future. He *allowed* Genosha to happen, (note Kitty Pryde's father died there and since he wasn't a mutant I doubt he will be back). He allowed ALL of Jean Grey's family to be wiped out. In fact he sat back an allowed a whole alien race, the D'Bari be genocided by Dark Phoenix. And he could have stopped all that (and much more) but DIDN'T. Xavier and the others are no different than their enemies.

    Oh, yeah. As for the good mutants always stopping the bad ones, do you remember who stopped Onslaught? Wasn't the X-Men. The Avengers and X-Men also stopped Magneto several times as well.
    Last edited by HandofShadows; 2019-09-26 at 09:35 AM.
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    Magneto's threatened to or tried to wipe out all of humanity multiple times. The whole reason Morrison had Magneto do that in his story arc, was because he was a bit annoyed that Magneto was getting a pass because he was popular. He was sick of this hypoctitcal genocidal maniac being used as a " Maybe he's right " type of character.

    And once he was off the book, then they did exactly what he hated, they made up an excuse that it wasn't really him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    I would have thought that my saying this "It's part of human nature to react violently to what people see as a threat, even when there isn't a threat. To the mob, Kurt was a strange monster. Of course Kurt isn't a monster" would have made it clear that the mob was dead wrong. Now if it had been Kurt's mother it would have been a totally different story.
    A child may see it this way.
    Some adults may see it this way.
    But the adults in the mob were more self aware that Kurt was not a monster, that he was a sentient being that did them no harm. The take down between Peter plus Kurt against Mob Man 1, Mob Man 2, Woman 1 demonstrates this where they were giving "bad faith excuses." They knew what they were doing was wrong they merely felt "entitled" to literally do a lynch mob.

    And this stuff has happened throughout history, people feeling entitled to inflict violence, hate, and DEATH onto other humans for no good reason where there safety was not threatened, they just felt entitled to kill a thing-onto-itself (noumenon, a philosophy term), a person for they did not like that person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    This is right, it's understandable, even if it is reprehensible how those people could behave that way, which brings me back to the whole. Understanding, doesn't mean condoning. You have to know why people do things before you can change them.
    And agree but I would go even further. Societies exist to encourage certain "natural" behavior and discourage other "natural" behavior. Societies make value judgement just like human individuals make our own subjective value judgement. A society that thinks it ethical to snuff out another human (or mutant) for merely existing with a different subjective point of view, but that subjective point of view has done no harm to another is in my opinion an unethical society that must be changed. If society leads to Auschwitz the society has no value for it is just dressed up barbarianism.

    Yet a society that respects humans as individuals, well there are dozens of different ways to organize such a society and it is not my place to say that society is ethical or unethical, instead it is merely aesthetic preference as in taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Magneto's threatened to or tried to wipe out all of humanity multiple times. The whole reason Morrison had Magneto do that in his story arc, was because he was a bit annoyed that Magneto was getting a pass because he was popular. He was sick of this hypoctitcal genocidal maniac being used as a " Maybe he's right " type of character.

    And once he was off the book, then they did exactly what he hated, they made up an excuse that it wasn't really him.
    Yeah Morrison thought 1965 to 1971 Magneto was the Best (the original X-Men Magneto before the X-Men books were canceled in 1971.)
    Chris Claremont is the main X-Men author from 1975 to 1991 and he re-imagined Magneto. Most other people prefer the anti-villian Magneto that Claremont reintroduced where Magneto is clearly coded as an anti-villain [like Killmonger] since 1981-1982 (X-Men 150 and 151, but also X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills) and Magneto even ran the Xavier School in 1985 (Xavier was IN-SPACE.) Now at the end of 1991 Claremont was purposefully writing Magneto as still being skeptical of Xavier's dream and he was going to depart but that did not mean he was going to do things like Genocide again.

    Then in 1991 Chris Claremont was fired / let go and by 1993 they already made Magneto a villain again with Asteroid M and after Magneto almost killed Wolverine by using his Magnetism to remove Wolverine's Adamantium so Xavier Mind-Wiped Magneto saying the cost of allowing his friend to continue is no longer worth it for Magneto is keep on hurting innocents. This 1993 mind-wipe event leads to the 1996 Onslaught saga, and also simultaneously the Magneto Clone Joseph (who is not revealed to be a clone till later) is introduced in 1995.

    -----

    My point here is Magneto is a character that pulls from Multiple Traditions and there is not one way to write him. You could be like Morrison who thought the villain Magneto is a better story and in the end Magneto needs to be killed no matter if you like him. (It is purposeful that Wolverine is the one who kills him in 2003-2004 from a thematic parallel and to echo the 1993 Asteroid M event.)

    But even Morrison wrote Xorn / Magneto as part of a tragedy and added things like Kick / Sublime to say Magneto was not fully in his calmer mind.

    And it made sense for Upper Management / Austen and others to retcon Morrison. You can make the argument that it was bad-taste to have a Jewish Survivor of the Holocaust destroy New York City in 2003-2004 literally only 2 to 2.5 years after 9/11. You can make the case it is a story that tastes wonderful due to the tragedy and to show anyone is capable of this, or you can make the argument this taste is gauche and base where you purposefully wrote a story in such a way to make people feel unpleasant and it also does not jive well with our reality and also the previous meaning and lore. Pretty much this difference of taste is something there is no way to judge for it is purely subjective, it is the same argument of arguing whether the 2019 Joker Movie is a good idea or it is a gauche idea.

    -----

    People can have different opinions about Magneto but one of the things I think we need is more variety in the X-Men villains and stop needing to return to Magneto as a villian. Either make him an anti-villian allied or away from Xavier, but we have so many other mutant threats in lore and also we have the opportunity to create new ones. [One of the things that Morrison was purposefully doing in his run with things like Cassandra Nova, Sublime, and so on. People who are monsters as big as Magneto if not even worse.]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    A child may see it this way.
    Some adults may see it this way.
    But the adults in the mob were more self aware that Kurt was not a monster, that he was a sentient being that did them no harm. The take down between Peter plus Kurt against Mob Man 1, Mob Man 2, Woman 1 demonstrates this where they were giving "bad faith excuses." They knew what they were doing was wrong they merely felt "entitled" to literally do a lynch mob.
    You really don't know what a herd mentality is do you? Someday I hope you expand your horizons and learn about things rather than making subtle character attacks when you don't understand the facts. Or refuse to understand them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    You really don't know what a herd mentality is do you? Someday I hope you expand your horizons and learn about things rather than making subtle character attacks when you don't understand the facts. Or refuse to understand them.
    Wow ...what? ... Wow ... you are quite arrogant!

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    You really don't know what a herd mentality is do you? Someday I hope you expand your horizons and learn about things rather than making subtle character attacks when you don't understand the facts. Or refuse to understand them.
    Even in a herd, even in a herd mentality, the individuality of an individual still exists. They choose to voluntary lower themselves to the herd (or raise themselves to the herd's thinking), they choose to align with the herd's thinking, to agree with it as the default.

    But what happens when the herd thinking does something vile? What happens when the herd does something despicable? What happens when the herd does something profane and unforgivable for it violated what was sacred / sacer? What then?

    And I do not believe "the mob" can create a [censored] reason why it was "necessary" , I do not believe the mob has the power to create a scapegoat and after killing the scapegoat to say their actions were "justified" that there actions are clean.

    Nightcrawler is innocent. Other mutants such as Magneto are not innocent. The mob killing Nightcrawler would be committing profane act, while something like them killing Magneto would be different for Magneto has committed unforgivable crimes. [Though he was kind of forgiven in 1985 with Uncanny X-Men 200. Earlier the Mutant Alpha deaged Magneto to an infant and thus he was reborn and his acts since that time till 1985 were not wicked and thus the trial was in effect to determine should the Court have the authority to punish Magneto for his previous life actions or should he live and instead atone for that's life actions / create a better world.]
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    New chapter and we got some new laws and a little more info on the amnesty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Magneto's threatened to or tried to wipe out all of humanity multiple times. The whole reason Morrison had Magneto do that in his story arc, was because he was a bit annoyed that Magneto was getting a pass because he was popular. He was sick of this hypoctitcal genocidal maniac being used as a " Maybe he's right " type of character.

    And once he was off the book, then they did exactly what he hated, they made up an excuse that it wasn't really him.
    Comic books have a long long history of not handling moral topics in a very deep or serious way.

    The entire premise of the superhero story is that people with extraordinary abilities should and do feel compelled to put on a mask to rid society of enemies who require this sort of handling. That isnít exactly a serious position. Itís essentially a power fantasy.

    Given the premise you canít expect the villains to be always treated the way people realistically treat people of that level of inhumanity. Instead it seems to reflect the lack of consequences that this style of storytelling breeds, of only because writers donít feel compelled to stick to the conventions of reality.

    The number of villains that have been redeemed at one point or another is staggering. Rarely do these redemptions seriously address the long history of crimes against humanity that archvillains have done. One day the villain changes sides and all is forgiven.

    If you canít let go of what the villains have done as easily as the artists you are probably in the minority. These arenít meant to be meditations on the best way for people to live and act and forgive. Although some people seem to treat it that way, comics just canít be taken as serious meditations on the nature of morality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Although some people seem to treat it that way, comics just canít be taken as serious meditations on the nature of morality.
    I disagree, Comics are just as much of a dream state as literature and other forms of fictions that can explore what could be.

    Part of human cognition is we do better at creating something a new if we have a model, a dream to base it around. Now there is a limitation to dream based logic, but dreams help us actually see things that we HATE all around us and gives us a tool to how to escape the problems that already exist here now in the present by thinking in a different way.

    -----

    Part of how a society function is a society continually "forgets" things. It may still exist in some form of memory subsystem, but the common collective memory it is forgotten. Individuals may remember but not everyone remembers. Simultaneously part of how a society function is we collective "make an impression" we make a memory, we make a touchstone we all agree to.

    Society is a continuous process of forgetting and a continuous process of making new things, and dreams is one of the tools we use to make new things. Comics is one of the tools we use to do this, it is one of many tools. Comics explore morality even if many people do not realize their morality is being influenced by the stories we tell.
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    By the way, Skin and Synch from Generation X are confirmed alive again.

    There was some talk about Generation X being ignored a few weeks ago, so...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    By the way, Skin and Synch from Generation X are confirmed alive again.

    There was some talk about Generation X being ignored a few weeks ago, so...
    Those are two of Hickman's favorite characters per interviews so I am not surprised by this.

    Can they revive the Hellions aka Emma Frost's first team? I ask for the Hellions died in our time 1991 and it is not clear when the Forge / Professor X conversation happened in Powers of X 5 (it looked 90s but when in the 90s?) The Hellions may not have been backed up in time via Cerebro. This also applies to other mutants who died in the 80s, such as Destiny who died in 1989.

    Question is there any way they could have a backup from when Necorsha was happening in 2009 to 2010? Several of the older mutants such as Hellions and Destiny were temporarily alive during that event. 🤔
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I disagree, Comics are just as much of a dream state as literature and other forms of fictions that can explore what could be.
    I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with, but if by dream state, you mean that the ideas put forward about morality are transparently non-cogent and inconsistent to the state that it would look insane to a person who was a awake...I think comics do that dream-state thing better than classroom literature.

    I'm assuming your taking issue with my claim that comics should not be taken as serious moral thinking, since that is what I said before you say "I disagree." If so, I'm not sure why you think "dreaming" is the way to conduct serious moral analysis, but if you think so, I don't know why you would put comics together with literature as equals in this realm of wild imaginings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    So the series is over now. The reset is done and the new landscape is out there. Any thoughts?

    Here's some of mine, spoilers just in case:
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    I was wrong about it being the current timeline in parts of it. Despite some things not lining up (to me anyway), it appears the Krakoa timeline is the 616 universe. However, it also appears that the other timelines do not exist any longer and in fact are destroyed (rewound) when Moira dies as evidenced by the final conversation in Life VI. Speaking of, apparently everything with the Librarian was Life VI and not the future of Life IX (which makes sense when there would be no future past Moira's death in Life IX).

    I guess the distant enemy going forward is the Phalanx. It was interesting to see that humans realized they were losing the evolutionary game so they decided to change the game and cast off natural evolution to embrace transhumanism. That makes sense to me, honestly. Especially when they showed the flashback to Captain America's creation (a reminder that many heroes and villains already fit the mold), illustrating that the trend already exists in Marvel and just hasn't been embraced on a wide scale.

    This seems to alter the human vs mutant conflict from "we have to stop the Sentinels" to possibly "we have to stop technology". Maybe the Krakoan drugs are an effort to buy mutants time. Give humans something to hold them over so they don't embrace transhumanism until it's too late.

    Also, do Karima's comments to Rasputin and Xorn take on a new meaning now? When she asked if they knew what was in a black hole and mentioned that they were all heading there (if I recall correctly). Given how Ascension is supposed to work (absorption by the Phalanx, then a trip into a black hole), does she know that's what the plan is? And if so, how? Also, does that mean we might see Rasputin in the 616 timeline and do the Phalanx know what the deal is now?

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    What timeline stuff you do not think line up with Tyrant? I have some thoughts about the end of the 12 issues and the new begginning but I have not had time to put it to paper.

    But answering specific questions is much easier.
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  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    What timeline stuff you do not think line up with Tyrant? I have some thoughts about the end of the 12 issues and the new begginning but I have not had time to put it to paper.

    But answering specific questions is much easier.
    The whole thing with Bar Sinister. I thought his multitudes in 616 were due to experimentation on a Phalanx which I believe should be much later than when he was met by Xavier and Magneto.

    I also still have issues with Moira's "death" way back when in light of all of this. Charles was in her mind when she was dying. No one else was privy to that mental conversation if I am remembering the issue correctly (might have to dig it out) so what would be the point of putting on a mental show for no audience with a Shiar fake? Maybe this can explained with Xavier having apparently rebooted himself, but it feels thin to me.

    And not really acknowledging the events of the last few years of X-Men comics. I know some fans want to ignore everything, but a lot of mutants died over the last few years. Obviously some of them have been brought back, but where's the celebration? Was it too much to have a few panels of Xavier persuading some of the X-Men to his ideals while promising them that he could bring the others back? Maybe a scene or two of him reconciling with Scott? That's more of a lack of content than possibly contradictory content though.

    Those are the few off hand, but I feel like there were a few other things that jumped out at me when I was reading these issues. And I see that a number of things can be brushed off by recalling the arrogance of Xavier and/or Magneto that even in this issue is still on display ("You sit here and hide Moira, we've got this under control. It's not like you haven't seen a few variations of this go completely south.")

    To be clear, those aren't criticisms of the story. I think the story has been great and I look forward to seeing where things go with what appears to be a new paradigm.

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Mister Sinister's clones all being extensions of the same individual comes from the Phalanx.

    But beforehand, there's no reason to suggest that he didn't do a "Jackal" thing and make so many clones of himself that you can't tell who the original was anymore.

    the ony thing surprising is that the Sinister splied with Mutant DNA isn't the original and that he wasn't originally obsessed with Mutants.
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  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Mister Sinister's clones all being extensions of the same individual comes from the Phalanx.

    But beforehand, there's no reason to suggest that he didn't do a "Jackal" thing and make so many clones of himself that you can't tell who the original was anymore.

    the ony thing surprising is that the Sinister splied with Mutant DNA isn't the original and that he wasn't originally obsessed with Mutants.
    Oh right, that was one of the other things. His shapeshifting is from another mutant (Courier) that he had access to in the 1800s, quite a bit before Thunderbird. And wouldn't he have been obsessed with mutants by that point?

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    Oh right, that was one of the other things. His shapeshifting is from another mutant (Courier) that he had access to in the 1800s, quite a bit before Thunderbird. And wouldn't he have been obsessed with mutants by that point?
    The obvious answer is that the Mutant sinister clone was pre-existing and only took over as the dominant Sinister when Charles and Eric came knocking.

    Sinister Prime comments that he's disappointed with how the Mutantgene sinister turned out, implying that he'd done a lot of experimenting with mutants by then and felt it played out.
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  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The obvious answer is that the Mutant sinister clone was pre-existing and only took over as the dominant Sinister when Charles and Eric came knocking.

    Sinister Prime comments that he's disappointed with how the Mutantgene sinister turned out, implying that he'd done a lot of experimenting with mutants by then and felt it played out.
    It just seems like a stretch to me. He's obsessed with mutants when he and Apocalypse cross paths, he seems to still be obsessed with them when he takes Courier's mutant powers*, and he's obsessed with them during the modern era. Assuming there is an interim period where he isn't obsessing over them, what is he focused on? Inhumans? Just seems weird that he is obsessed with mutants in almost every time period we see him in, except some random moment where he also has lots of clones before Charles and Erik show up? Maybe it's just me, but that's quite a stretch.

    Anyway, the Dawn of X is here now with X-Men #1. I imagine this is as good a place as any to talk about it. Spoilers:
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    So, Orchis on Earth seems to be pretty well done. Orchis in space, however, seems to be still in operation. I do wonder what exactly that crystal that Dr. Gregor has at the end though? A replica of a shiar memory crystal (I think that's what they said they were using for Cerebro)? A sliver of the M'Kraan crystal? Will her lost love become the template for Nimrod? "He was our best military mind. A great strategist and hunter"

    On that front, isn't Bastion still around? Wasn't he all about merging man and machine in the form of the Prime Sentinels and later with his various plans in Uncanny X-Force? And what about that nanite Sentinel from X-Men Gold? I would think these two would eventually join up with Orchis. Also, can they still make Prime Sentinels?

    So Jean, Scott, Alex, Rachel, Kid Cable (and Logan?, and Vulcan!?) have a house on the moon. Not sure if it's meant as a final middle finger to the Inhumans or if it's supposed to be related to Jean dying there at the end of the Phoenix Saga. Corsair and the Starjammers drop by.

    Total side note, but are we sure original Vulcan is actually dead? Didn't he take a blast from Black Bolt and keep going and didn't Black Bolt somehow find a way out of whatever the two of them got sucked in to? Also, is this Vulcan as powerful as that version? Wasn't part of the reason Vulcan was so powerful was because he absorbed a lot/all of the energy released by "No more mutants"?







    * I doubt that he was already, somehow, making clones in the late 1800s. So, after taking Courier's powers he should already have an active X-Factor gene. His clones should too as they would have come later.

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Following the Terrigen mist and the mass death/sterilization of mutants, Bastion and a few other Sentinels ran into a bug in their programming and decided that if mutants went extinct, they'd follow soon(It's compared to a robot maid intentionally making messes to clean up so it won't be deactivated) and deciding to protect mutants only to hunt them again once the population was sustainable.

    This lead him to ally with Emma Frost(Went crazy when Scott died,) Alex(Still evil from Axis at the time,) Shaw, and Miss Sinister to try and manufacture mutants using a virus harvested from some mutants from the Ultimate universe who ended up in the main timeline after secret Wars.

    When Magneto's x-men team foiled the plot, Bastion was destroyed.
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  29. - Top - End - #149
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    I can't comment much on the plot, but the blogosphere is making a big to-do about Wolverine, Jean and Cyclops hinted at supposedly being in a stable polyamorous relationship now. I don't know how it'll shake out with the wider comic readership but it has to be an improvement over the tired and decades-old love triangle rivalry between the two men, so I think it's an interesting update to the mythos for a modern audience.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Grumbles about how stressed my life has been and how I hadn't had time to do flow free things but also things where I organize my thoughts. Maybe I have time to write about HoX6 soon and also answer of the Tyrant's thoughts. Life stop being stressful!

    Pivots for it is semi related, an important insight, but also something I can write in a short to the point.

    Spoiler: X-Men #1 in Hickman's X-Men, year 2019.
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    OMG Cyclops is the Hyper-Vigilant PTSD man walking here.

    Hickman is specifically choosing those 2 first pages of Xavier giving Cyclops his glasses and he will show him a new world (the young idealistic 15 year old Scott who had no father figure and then finds his first father figure in Xavier, falling in love with Xavier's dream for it was the first real attachment.)

    And Hickman is giving the contrast of 40 year old Cyclops (15 years + 13 years of the OG5 X-Men with Sliding Time Scale, but Cyclops also has 12 additional years of life in the future raising Cable in the Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix.) 40 old year Cyclops is the walking wounding, the hyper-vigilant mess.

    We never see Cyclops inner state with inner thought bubbles. Instead we see Cyclops interacting with other people and Cyclops is the man with the mission, expecting the sword of damocles to fall and only by being prepared, by being vigilant can he prevent disaster. Cyclops must be ready to punch others in order to save others, and there are some things he can't punch through like the Wall / Door that Magneto opened but still that stuff was beyond him but Cyclops keeps on trying to do so anyway.

    Cyclops when he is trying to make sure Storm is taking caring of himself is actually himself saying he needs to take care of himself but he does not realize this need and he is thus projecting it onto others. Likewises Storm wants Cyclops to heal and rest and to trust again. Do not be the brittle strong man who is unable to recharge for he fears danger at every turn of the corner.

    Cyclops builds his house in Space not just for the view, but also because it is a safe place away from everyone else, thus putting himself in a place where he can't be a danger to others. Sure he has his family up there, and he sorta half relaxes with his family but he is unable to fully relax for he is continuously on edge. Summers wants to be happy but he can't be happy for life feels like a dream and he thinks the dream will shift all of a sudden and become a nightmare. He is trapped in a lucid reality that feels like a lucid dream, a man locked away from emotions and he does not know what he really needs or wants besides safety and a future.

    Cyclops dad sees he is hurting but he too can't make it better. Cyclops desperately needs therapy (and not the Emma Frost kind.) Vigilance is good but Hyper-Vigilance is bad and Cyclops is on the wrong balance point.

    That is why X-Men #1 seems off. This is an idyllic paradise but our main character is not happy even if everyone else around him is in paradise even if there is danger in this paradise as well. When Lorna talks about Magneto being a kid again this is specifically comparing Cyclops to Magneto and how Magneto has learned to be Vigilant but also relax from time to time. Cyclops the Captain Commander of the Mutant Armies is a Mess. When the kids yell Magneto's Back, Magneto, Magneto! We are purposefully not seen Magneto's Face in that first panel but instead Cyclop's face and only after seeing this first experience we see the second experience of Magneto being calmed with the children. Lorna admits she is not fully integrated, Lorna and Cyclops talks about Terror. Lorna knows Cyclops is not fully acclimated and he says this is Paradise but Lorna asks "Do You Really Believe That?"

    And what is Cyclops' response? Him lying through his goddamn teeth for he wants to believe but he can't anymore. He wants to believe in Xavier's dream but he has 25 years of hell and he is not the same idealistic 15 year old anymore.

    -----

    God I hate this Cyclops even though it is a well written character. It is purposefully using a character to set the tone of the story. Give me happy Cyclops with the Fantastic Four saying he remembers the horrors of the past but he is still helpful and can be friendly with the FF but also say he will not take the world BS anymore. (HoX1)

    Give me the happy Cyclops who gives Wolverine Belly Rubs in HoX6.

    Sidenote as Psyren pointed out all the rooms have doors to the "central room" but there are also side doors connecting Cyclops to Jean's room where you can enter her place without using the common room, and Jean also has the same thing with Wolverine. Yes this is subtext but combined with all the other subtext it is like the 1980s subtext of Mystique and Irene Adler being roommates raising their adopted daughter Rogue. Of course they are saying without saying it with words.


    I will write other stuff some other time. Until then you gals and guys have fun
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2019-10-18 at 07:29 PM.
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