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Thread: House of X

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I'm sure you're right about Jean, but I've apparently missed the stories when she acts like that. I know that the young Jean they had running around for a while was a jerk, but I feel like that's basically an entirely different character.
    Canonically they're not.

    They are conically the same Jean--adult Jean eventually inherited Teen Jean's memories after Teen Jean when back in time and buried her own memories and those of the other O-5 to maintain the timeline.

    Though as far as I know, the worst thing Teen Jean did was out Iceman after reading his mind and finding out he was gay. Adult Iceman eventually called out Adult Jean on how much of a **** move that was after their teen selves went back in time to become their adult selves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Canonically they're not.

    They are conically the same Jean--adult Jean eventually inherited Teen Jean's memories after Teen Jean when back in time and buried her own memories and those of the other O-5 to maintain the timeline.

    Though as far as I know, the worst thing Teen Jean did was out Iceman after reading his mind and finding out he was gay. Adult Iceman eventually called out Adult Jean on how much of a **** move that was after their teen selves went back in time to become their adult selves.
    I know the canon, but they act so differently from the characters they're supposed to represent that I have a hard time accepting that they're the same people. It's not just that they're younger either. They're completely different people in most cases.

    The biggest problem with teen Jean was her refusal to stay out of other people's minds even when they asked her to. In reality she'd be ostracized almost immediately for that behavior.

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    Question Re: House of X

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post

    ...after their teen selves went back in time to become their adult selves.
    Can you explain how teenagers go back in time and become their adult selves?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Can you explain how teenagers go back in time and become their adult selves?
    By growing up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    By growing up.
    I think there’s something going on with time here in addition to the growing or the instant transmigration into adult bodies, as the case might be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Can you explain how teenagers go back in time and become their adult selves?
    Beast uses a time machine to go back in time and get the original X-Men--himself, Cyclopse, Marvel Girl, Ice Mean, and Angel, from early in their carreer. Like, single digits of the original Lee-Kirby run early.

    He did this to prove a point to Cyke, who had had his character derailed and who everyone was treating like crap for the past while.

    Something something the teenage versions of the original X-Men get stranded in the future.

    Unlike normal time travel, this doesn't cause a fork in the imeline--eventually, they're going to have to go back in time in order to preserve the timeline.

    Notably, this requires teen-angel to have his wings cut off and replaced with Mimic's wings becuase he got a power upgrade that turned his wings into fire. This power upgrade was an infusion of Cosmic Power so it shouldn't have worked that way but whatever.

    Jean learns how to burry emotions and memories from a pair of psychic twins who have memorie and emotion manipulation powers and uses it to suppress her own and the other O-5's memories of the future until after they experience their past selves going back.

    So by "go back in time to become their adult selves," I mean, "go back in time so that they can literally grow up and become the adult selves that they met on their extended trip to the future."
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    Imagine a string on a table and the string is taunt and thus a straight line.

    Now imagine you can create a loop of that string by having being a little looser.

    It is a self contained time loop for the memories were erased (and it was only months in marvel time so the age difference of the bodies were not major.) The memories were then transferred to their older selves so that something would remain of these OG 5 story wise from 2012 to 2018. Some significance happened besides the OG 5 affecting other characters in universe.

    And in 2019 at the end of the 2017 and 2018 Iceman run there is a Uncanny X-Men: Winter's End #1 which is a 1 shot where Older Iceman fights Icewizard future him from Battle of the Atom shows up. Well there is a few good pages of current Bobby is talking how personal agency is removed from people if time displaced versions of you come back in time or forward in time and are trying to influence your behavior. It is not natural and it is kind of [censored] in what it is doing to people as individuals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I'm sure you're right about Jean, but I've apparently missed the stories when she acts like that. I know that the young Jean they had running around for a while was a jerk, but I feel like that's basically an entirely different character.
    They explained that quite good with her telepathy activating with her coming to the future and having trouble keeping it under wraps. That plus her suddenly knowing what will happen to her makes her being not so nice quite rational.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowfyr01 View Post
    They explained that quite good with her telepathy activating with her coming to the future and having trouble keeping it under wraps. That plus her suddenly knowing what will happen to her makes her being not so nice quite rational.
    This is true but it is not what I meant. Jean from the 1980s to 2000s has always done some shady stuff from time to time, she is always rationalizing it away. Jean is a good person generally, but she does some bullying / wicked / not-good things from time to time, and she always finds a way to justify it. When it happens enough though you are not doing a 1 time exception but instead finding ways to excuse it.

    For pete sake 1980 Jean in the Dark Phoenix Story (before the Dark Phoenix event happened, but during the build up with this saga.) Kitty Pryde / Shadowcat is 13 and her powers just manifested and Storm, Wolverine, and Jean tried to recruit her to Xavier school. Well due to hijinks involving comics Kitty was gone not for a few hours but instead over a day and the parents were worried. So when Kitty finally returns home and the X-Men tried to recruit her, the parents rightfully said no I can't trust you. So what happens, how did Kitty join the school? Well Jean Mind-Control the Parents to change their mind and allow Kitty to attend.

    Now this is one event, but there are dozens of other similar times throughout the decades of Jean stories.

    My point is Emma Frost is an antihero who does both heroic things plus wicked / cruel things. Emma has been an antihero ever since Generation X (so 90s) where she lead that school and she had to come to terms with her Helions being killed by the Sentinels and she was in a coma for some time (and when she awoke from the coma she temporarily housed Bobby Drake and used powers Iceman could not use at that time.)

    Jean Grey has always been a hero, but she has done some shady stuff in her 4 decades runs (with her being decade more than 2 decades but not in consecutive intervals.) Just because Jean is a Hero does not stop her from doing good and shady stuff she is capable of both, but unlike Emma she tries to [censored] her way around the issue in order to preserve her self-image inside of herself, and the self-image she presents to others.

    There are lots of differences between the two, Jean and Frost, but there is no magic brightline between them, it is more of a spectrum that is a liminal zone. Liminal as in is the quality of ambiguity or disorientation that occurs in the middle stage between two events or between two extremes. (And all of this is okay, for humans are liminal creatures, especially heroes.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Emma is in a weird place because the narrative always treats her like she's a hero...while her actions are very much villainous. The X-men in general tend to live in a gray area where they often act closer to villains than heroes and Emma takes it to an extreme.

    Her willingness to dominate other's minds to get what she wants (including her friends and lovers) will always leave her firmly in the villain camp for me, no matter what her intentions are.
    Reposts this quote to remind people what started this small conversation.

    But yeah read those comics I talked about earlier for Emma is a complicated character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    This is true but it is not what I meant. Jean from the 1980s to 2000s has always done some shady stuff from time to time, she is always rationalizing it away. Jean is a good person generally, but she does some bullying / wicked / not-good things from time to time, and she always finds a way to justify it. When it happens enough though you are not doing a 1 time exception but instead finding ways to excuse it.

    For pete sake 1980 Jean in the Dark Phoenix Story (before the Dark Phoenix event happened, but during the build up with this saga.) Kitty Pryde / Shadowcat is 13 and her powers just manifested and Storm, Wolverine, and Jean tried to recruit her to Xavier school. Well due to hijinks involving comics Kitty was gone not for a few hours but instead over a day and the parents were worried. So when Kitty finally returns home and the X-Men tried to recruit her, the parents rightfully said no I can't trust you. So what happens, how did Kitty join the school? Well Jean Mind-Control the Parents to change their mind and allow Kitty to attend.

    Now this is one event, but there are dozens of other similar times throughout the decades of Jean stories.

    My point is Emma Frost is an antihero who does both heroic things plus wicked / cruel things. Emma has been an antihero ever since Generation X (so 90s) where she lead that school and she had to come to terms with her Helions being killed by the Sentinels and she was in a coma for some time (and when she awoke from the coma she temporarily housed Bobby Drake and used powers Iceman could not use at that time.)

    Jean Grey has always been a hero, but she has done some shady stuff in her 4 decades runs (with her being decade more than 2 decades but not in consecutive intervals.) Just because Jean is a Hero does not stop her from doing good and shady stuff she is capable of both, but unlike Emma she tries to [censored] her way around the issue in order to preserve her self-image inside of herself, and the self-image she presents to others.

    There are lots of differences between the two, Jean and Frost, but there is no magic brightline between them, it is more of a spectrum that is a liminal zone. Liminal as in is the quality of ambiguity or disorientation that occurs in the middle stage between two events or between two extremes. (And all of this is okay, for humans are liminal creatures, especially heroes.)



    Reposts this quote to remind people what started this small conversation.

    But yeah read those comics I talked about earlier for Emma is a complicated character.
    She's not complicated. She's Magneto except she's pretty and has her boobs out which sells comics to young boys so they put her on the protagonist team. She's a monster who has killed hundreds of innocent people even after becoming a part of the "hero" team.

    X books in general seem to struggle with the whole "genocidal maniacs aren't good guys" concept. They're far too willing to forgive mass murderers just because they share genetics. At some point they stopped being a team of heroes and turned into a team of fantasy racists. Sabretooth murders a bunch of people and Cyclops tries to rescue him? Teaming up with Emma Frost and Magneto? Torturing innocent scientists to death? That's all just this arc so far. They're the bad guys and they have been for a long time now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    She's not complicated. She's Magneto except she's pretty and has her boobs out which sells comics to young boys so they put her on the protagonist team. She's a monster who has killed hundreds of innocent people even after becoming a part of the "hero" team.

    X books in general seem to struggle with the whole "genocidal maniacs aren't good guys" concept. They're far too willing to forgive mass murderers just because they share genetics. At some point they stopped being a team of heroes and turned into a team of fantasy racists. Sabretooth murders a bunch of people and Cyclops tries to rescue him? Teaming up with Emma Frost and Magneto? Torturing innocent scientists to death? That's all just this arc so far. They're the bad guys and they have been for a long time now.
    Sounds like you are mad. It is amusing.
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    Jean didn't mind control Kitty's parents.

    Phoenix did.

    The second "Jean" declared herself Phoenix, that was the Phoenix force posing as Jean. Jean was basically a non-entity her first time around as Phoenix. When the Phoenix was first revealed to be a separate entity, they even went as far as to say that that wasn't even Jean's body but a duplicate though this has since been ignored by several stories.

    That wasn't the original intent behind Phoenix, but it's been the canon for decades.

    Edit: As For Magneto, the one and only time Magneto actually attempted Genocide it was quickly revealed to be an imposter. At the absolute worst he's willing to kill humans to prevent mutant genocide if he has to. He hasn't consistently been a villain since the 80s.

    And when did the X-Men torture innocent scientists to death? Not in this arc.

    Mystique's incarnation fo the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants burned Moira to death in an alternate timeline, but that Mystique wasn't an x-person and that didn't happen in this timeline.
    Last edited by Rater202; 2019-08-16 at 04:35 PM.
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    Default Re: House of X

    I always felt Emma was a more interesting love interest than Jean for Cyke (and Cyke himself was only really an interesting character beyond "the leader one" the period starting under Whedon's pen until they randomly decided He Was Evil Now). Jean never felt in anything I read or watched (note: that is hardly an exhaustive list though) as being much more than an extension of said "the leader one" double character and/or something for Wolverine to be miserable over. I mean, for frack's sake, for years she didn't even have a code-name!

    Perhaps you can blame the 1990s cartoon X-Men especially (for 'tis where I started), but both of them I found very bland characters, and as I always said of X-3 if you were going to pick three X-Men to off, Jean, Cyke and Prof X would have been it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Jean didn't mind control Kitty's parents.

    Phoenix did.

    That wasn't the original intent behind Phoenix, but it's been the canon for decades.
    And Young Jean and Ghost Jean Mindraped Emma Frost, while Frost slept, in search for a Phoenix Fragment. The same thing that Jean hated that Emma and Mastermind (Jason Wyngarde) did to her in the past. There are numerous examples and I am not going to waste time to create a list for that is a form of wankery. Either you understand that Jean does shady things from time to time or you do not, and assembling a list is a waste of time and ego. It is a waste of ego for some people will not want to see it even if the evidence is presented in front of them. "I see nothing" as Westworld would say.

    -----

    And yes Phoenix was retcon that those actions were not Jean Grey but Phoenix for we can't sell comics if Phoenix is a genocidal murder who killed billions when she eat stars. It was a top down decision that came out of the comics and wrote it. I know that is what technically happened but I am dispensing of the pretense. You are smart enought to realize two contradictory things, that was Jean, except technically it was not Jean, it was just a Thanos clone, or Doombot, or Phoenix avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    I always felt Emma was a more interesting love interest than Jean for Cyke (and Cyke himself was only really an interesting character beyond "the leader one" the period starting under Whedon's pen until they randomly decided He Was Evil Now). Jean never felt in anything I read or watched (note: that is hardly an exhaustive list though) as being much more than an extension of said "the leader one" double character and/or something for Wolverine to be miserable over. I mean, for frack's sake, for years she didn't even have a code-name!
    Jean is very much an interesting character!

    But she is not an interesting character when she is with Cyclops and their arms are interlocked, or lusting after Wolverine, and so on. Let Jean Grey stories be Jean Grey stories and her as her own woman. Aka stop putting Jean Grey in some form of relationship triangle, whether romantic or somehow being the mediator of two other people. Let her be her own thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    I always felt Emma was a more interesting love interest than Jean for Cyke
    Their relationship started when Scott came to Emma in her capacity as a therapist to deal with some issues that were affecting his ability to be intimate with Jean.

    Emma responded by invading his mind while he slept to have dream sex with him without his consent and later used her position as his therapist to talk him into having sex with her under the guise of therapy.

    In real life, a Therapist who did that would lose their license to practice psychiatry due to the unethical predatory behavior displayed.

    In half of the united states, she'd have been prosecuted for rape.

    Apparently, Scott and Emma had some nice moments together, but the fact that the relationship started out as stat-rape sours me on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Their relationship started when Scott came to Emma in her capacity as a therapist to deal with some issues that were affecting his ability to be intimate with Jean.

    Emma responded by invading his mind while he slept to have dream sex with him without his consent and later used her position as his therapist to talk him into having sex with her under the guise of therapy.

    In real life, a Therapist who did that would lose their license to practice psychiatry due to the unethical predatory behavior displayed.

    In half of the united states, she'd have been prosecuted for rape.

    Apparently, Scott and Emma had some nice moments together, but the fact that the relationship started out as stat-rape sours me on it.
    I know. I was rather disturbed by it myself at first (that whole run was a bit pants, frankly, and it permenantly soured me on Quentin Quire). But the actual relationship dynmics - especially during the Whedon-and-on era, was actually, y'know, not unendurably dull.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Jean is very much an interesting character!

    But she is not an interesting character when she is with Cyclops and their arms are interlocked, or lusting after Wolverine, and so on. Let Jean Grey stories be Jean Grey stories and her as her own woman. Aka stop putting Jean Grey in some form of relationship triangle, whether romantic or somehow being the mediator of two other people. Let her be her own thing.
    And that, I think, is precisely the problem. I have never SEEN Jean in anything in her own right, really (hell, she was sort of the Designated Girl One from inception and that's not always easy to shake). she's almost always seemingly a foil to One Of The Blokes, be it Cyke, Wolvey or Prof X himself. Emma meanwhile, at least, came across as her own established character (with all her flaws - many, many flaws!) first.

    ...

    The Wolverine and the X-Men animated Jean was okay, but that was mostly because she was Voiced By Jennifer Hale and she can make even Wanda be tolerable.



    As if we're gonna talk about people - even on topic, being X-Men! - who have Done Dodgy And Unforgivable Crap over the years? Reality-Warping-Temper-Tantrum-Girl springs rather more to mind...

    ...

    Okay, fair cop; I'll admit, X-Men '92's run where they went "no more vampires" and basically lampooned that whole mess on an actually deserving target made me laugh so damn hard, it dowsed much of my ire and made House of M less intolerable of existing purely because it set that moment up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Apparently, Scott and Emma had some nice moments together, but the fact that the relationship started out as stat-rape sours me on it.
    Agreed.

    (inserts more text for Agreed. is only 7 characters and this board requires 10 characters for a response.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Beast uses a time machine to go back in time and get the original X-Men--himself, Cyclopse, Marvel Girl, Ice Mean, and Angel, from early in their carreer. Like, single digits of the original Lee-Kirby run early...

    Something something the teenage versions of the original X-Men get stranded in the future.

    Unlike normal time travel, this doesn't cause a fork in the imeline--eventually, they're going to have to go back in time in order to preserve the timeline...

    So by "go back in time to become their adult selves," I mean, "go back in time so that they can literally grow up and become the adult selves that they met on their extended trip to the future."
    Thank you for explaining that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Imagine a string on a table and the string is taunt and thus a straight line.

    Now imagine you can create a loop of that string by having being a little looser.
    ...

    And in 2019 at the end of the 2017 and 2018 Iceman run there is a Uncanny X-Men: Winter's End #1 which is a 1 shot where Older Iceman fights Icewizard future him from Battle of the Atom shows up.
    I omitted the paragraph here that talked about the story out of context, but I'm not sure these paragraphs do anything to explain how teen x-men went back in time and became adult x-men.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    X books in general seem to struggle with the whole "genocidal maniacs aren't good guys" concept. They're far too willing to forgive mass murderers just because they share genetics. At some point they stopped being a team of heroes and turned into a team of fantasy racists.
    I generally agree that comic books generally, and its heroes specifically, love to forget what villains have done and just let them switch sides without recognizing the magnitude of what they are doing. In fact...this is comics, just about everything in them registers as weighty on exponential orders of magnitude greater than the authors are capable of realizing.

    However, I thought the point of House of X a reboot so the villain have not actually done those things this time...
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Quentin Quire
    I'm gonna admit, even after he grew out of his "borderline school shooter written by someone who only knows the stereotypes" phase, even after he sacrificed his piece of the Phoenix to cure Jubilee, I never much cared for him beyond his West Coast Avengers appearance.

    And even then as more of a set-piece for Gwenpool's character arc than as a character. Hell, the first time they kissed my exact thoughts at the time were "Gwen, no, you deserve better than him!"

    He's gonna be in X-force when House and Powers are over and Hickmans' run officially starts. If he's still with Gwen during that I can probably tolerate him as a supporting piece for a character I like but if Hickman just ignored Gwen's existence then eh.
    However, I thought the point of House of X a reboot so the villain have not actually done those things this time...
    Soft reboot.

    Everything still happened, but there's been a time skip to change the Status quo and a couple of retcons have been made to support the story.

    The X-Men's entire history still happened, but Hickman is only mining it for stories, not defining the X-Men by it.

    In general, you can't reboot part of a Shared universe. Change the X-Men's continuity to a major degree and you screw up the continuity of everything that hasn't been rebooted.

    It's the same reason why they're never gonna undo OMD with Spider-Man: It sucks, but there's too much that's happened since that wouldn't have happened without it and removing that stuff would screw everyone else over.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's the same reason why they're never gonna undo OMD with Spider-Man: It sucks, but there's too much that's happened since that wouldn't have happened without it and removing that stuff would screw everyone else over.
    You could always have Spider-Man just become an adult and marry MJ all over again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Sounds like you are mad. It is amusing.
    Thank you for reminding me why I had your posts ignored by default. I'd forgotten and was considering removing you from that list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Edit: As For Magneto, the one and only time Magneto actually attempted Genocide it was quickly revealed to be an imposter. At the absolute worst he's willing to kill humans to prevent mutant genocide if he has to. He hasn't consistently been a villain since the 80s.

    And when did the X-Men torture innocent scientists to death? Not in this arc.

    Mystique's incarnation fo the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants burned Moira to death in an alternate timeline, but that Mystique wasn't an x-person and that didn't happen in this timeline.
    That's complete nonsense. Off the top of my head I know that Magneto has tried to fire every nuke on Earth, created a volcano in the middle of a city destroying it, destroyed New York (main comic books, not ultimatum), has turned off all electronic devices on Earth (how many people do you think that killed?) and tried to take over the world a dozen times. Are we supposed to believe that every single one of his hundreds of thousands of murders are conveniently in another timeline? That's ludicrous. The fact that he turns into the Nazis who created him is literally the whole point of his character arc. It's repeated over and over no matter how many times they reboot him.

    As for Mystique, considering that she was literally complicit in murdering several guards one issue ago no, I don't buy that this is a different version with her hands clean. Since ya'know...it's explicitly a plot point that she isn't.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    That's complete nonsense. Off the top of my head I know that Magneto has tried to fire every nuke on Earth, created a volcano in the middle of a city destroying it, destroyed New York (main comic books, not ultimatum), has turned off all electronic devices on Earth (how many people do you think that killed?) and tried to take over the world a dozen times. Are we supposed to believe that every single one of his hundreds of thousands of murders are conveniently in another timeline? That's ludicrous. The fact that he turns into the Nazis who created him is literally the whole point of his character arc. It's repeated over and over no matter how many times they reboot him.

    As for Mystique, considering that she was literally complicit in murdering several guards one issue ago no, I don't buy that this is a different version with her hands clean. Since ya'know...it's explicitly a plot point that she isn't.
    About Emma
    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    She's not complicated. She's Magneto except she's pretty and has her boobs out which sells comics to young boys so they put her on the protagonist team. She's a monster who has killed hundreds of innocent people even after becoming a part of the "hero" team.
    Sounds like we are in disagreement for Emma may be an Anti-Hero sometimes a villian, but she is very different than Magneto for Emma has never done anything like this (much smaller scale.)

    Yet according to you Emma is just Magneto with Boobs.

    I find this amusing, your very opinionated opinions. Opinions that may be subjectively true and you hold them very strongly.

    Yet they seem to be contradictory to my own subjective point of view. It is Astonishing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Thank you for reminding me why I had your posts ignored by default. I'd forgotten and was considering removing you from that list.
    Go ahead and keep on ignoring me. You have been on my ignore list in the past as well.
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    I just realized something. Hickman seems to be redoing some of the 90s stuff (especially 90s stuff from 1991 to 2000) where things he does not like he reworks and makes better (in Hickmans opinion) while keeping stuff he likes. I am not going to find the interview but from my memory (and it may be faulty) Hickman said generally he found the weakest x-men stuff to be from the 90s but he adores other aspects from the 90s such as Generation X. Plus in other X-Men interviews Hickman said he thinks the best stories are serialized but also incorporate stories where two people may agree on the final outcome but disagree on how to get there, aka he is a fan of Magneto's anti-villain stuff with Xavier where they both agree the present is intolerable and they agree on the same future but how do you get there.

    Well with this thought, I am now going to speculate something that I think will be brought up in Hickman's House of X / Power of X as a reference even if I do not think it will be a plot element. Probably some form of retcon or re-contextualization.

    Spoiler: Speculation informed by Power of X2
    Show
    In House of X and Powers of X we seen a couple things.

    Emphasis on Omega Mutants,
    Emphasis on Magneto, Xavier, and Moira,
    Emphasis on Hiveminds and Individuality.

    Thus I foresee a reference to the 1996 Onslaught arc, especially since Onslaught's final plan was to make everyone a Hivemind in order to end the Mutant / Human conflict.
    We seen all this talk about Machine / Human Hiveminds in Power of X2, and in Power of X1 we see the 4th Generation of Sinister Mutants almost did a Hivemind but it seem to fail and turned into a tragedy (accidentally or on purpose, for Sinister is not to be trusted.)

    I wonder if Hickman will re-contextualize / retcon Onslaught into something better for that arc was a trainwreck even though I think the idea was good but it went cartoon zany in the end.

    -----

    Remind me Onslaught in his final form was 2 Omega Mutants (Franklin Richards and Magneto) + Nate Grey (Used to be Omega but may not be with House of X1 reclassification scheme) + Xavier (Which we got contradictory information in the past if he was Omega or Alpha but I think it is clear he is now seen as Alpha with House of X1.) Onslaught being an almost hivemind with the goal of evolving and incorporating everything into a Hivemind.



    Thoughts?
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Powers #2 includes Xavier saying something along the lines of "this isn't about me or you, it's about us" in the same issue that spends a good chunk of time talking about hiveminds.

    It's almost inevitable that Hiveminds play a part in his plans and it would explain why whatever brought the dead X-Men back brought back Esme.

    The plot, in general, seems to be about getting as many mutants as possible under Krokoa's banner.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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    So we only have 5 issues left of HoXPoX, does anyone have any thoughts so far?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    So we only have 5 issues left of HoXPoX, does anyone have any thoughts so far?
    I did like the recent issue with the assault on Mother Mold. Especially once it comes on line and illustrates the contempt it has for both mutants and humans. I'm still not sure which life of Moira this is supposed to be at this point. And where is she in this incarnation?

    I'm assuming at this point that the 616 that we know will be life XI for Moira. Although I'm pretty sure she is dead in the 616 timeline. Then again I was pretty sure she was a human so what do I know.

    I'm interested to what else they with Apocalypse in this storyline. I liked seeing him committed to the plan against Nimrod and seeing it through in life IX. I wonder if they will square what happens in HoX/PoX with where he was at the end of Age of X-Man (seeming to come around that his way wasn't the right way, caring about Evan, etc), especially since he is apparently going to be in Excalibur after this. It's nice when he is written as a character and not a plot device. I assume Mr. Sinister is going to show up at some point as well.

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    616 is life 10: The history of life ten lines up with her known history in Earth 616.

    Apparently, she faked her death to help set this up.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    616 is life 10: The history of life ten lines up with her known history in Earth 616.

    Apparently, she faked her death to help set this up.
    I know comics are well known for retconning, but Xavier was in her mind when she died. That's not something that should be easy to fake. And if this is 616, why does Cyclops have both eyes? Hope shot one out. Why is Wolverine asking about the afterlife when he just recently paid it a visit? Why is Xavier getting emotional when the people on the suicide mission are likely pod people? (and where are the regulars?)

    I think it is close, but different enough that it might not be 616. I think what we are seeing with Krakoa is life X and they end up getting "close", but not quite there. I think it's also possible the Phalanx bit is the future of this timeline, not life IX (Moira had already reset by that point, why show it?), and her endgame involves carrying over all of the memories in the hivemind somehow.

    But overall I just don't see 616 being life X. Given what Destiny said, I think we're going to see life XI. The only way that happens is if things reset from life X. I just don't see this storyline being the big, universal Marvel reset (which is what each of her deaths is, essentially) that seriously monkeys with continuity. That's why I think basically everything we have seen has been past lives and the other shoe has yet to drop.

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    1: Xavier was in on it.

    The major Bombshell of this series is that almost all of the X-Men's history was staged and that Xavier, Moira, and Magneto were working in a long con. (Though they had a falling out at somepoint, so not all of the antagonism was faked.)

    That's the retcon.

    2: Presumably Scott has both eyes for the same reason that everyone who died in the last fifteen or so years is alive again. With Wolverine, that kind of assumes that Logan remembers what the Afterlife is like after coming back. Nobody seems to remember what they experienced while dead except for the ones that didn't pass on.

    3: Timeline's dont' cease to exist when someone dies. the Age of Apocalypse continued to exist even after Legion's accidental murder of his father in the past was undone.

    Moira dying causes her to reset in a new timeline, but that doesn't mean that the old timeline stops going. The stuff with the phalanx follows logically from Life Six, and I figure they showed it because it's gonna be relevant in a future storyline--Hickman's set to be in charge for years to come, and if nothing else the establishment of different kinds of hiveminds foreshadowed how Xavier used a hivemind to keep in touch with the X-Men this week.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
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    Way down the air
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    I thought it was established that time travel shenanigans happen WITHIN the designated 616 universe, not in a separate universe. Although maybe there is a parallel universe out there that mirrors one of the past timelines.

    I suppose its possible that any given story that doesn't explicitly say it takes place in 616 takes place elsewhere, but how often has that happened with a mainline story as oppose to something being explicitly alternative. When you get a something like time-travel by reincarnation to explain the differences you are seeing, isn't the easiest explanation that it is in the main continuity and the explanation its the 10th timeline of potentially 11 separate timelines, exactly as Moira describes it to be?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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