The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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    Default Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Hel's plan is to gain all the Dwarven souls because if the gods themselves vote to destroy the world, then the Dwarves don't die honorably.

    But now because of the Dwarven council of clans meeting if they vote to destroy the world because they think it is the honorable thing to do, then for all the Dwarves it becomes an honorable death instead. It might take the dominated dwarven elders to play along in the afterlife to say, "Yes I was dominated during the vote, but I without the domination I would have voted yes because it is the honorable thing to do".

    Honestly, that is the flaw in Hel's plan. It is no longer up to the gods, but up to the dwarves now. So even if the world gets destroyed, she may lose out on the Dwarves themselves.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Some council members think it would be honorable, but that doesn't mean they're right. And even if they are right, that only applies to them, the ones actually making the decision to die and go to Hel for the sake of others. Any dwarf who didn't have a say wouldn't have an honorable death.
    Last edited by hroĢila; 2019-07-30 at 07:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorSarda View Post
    Hel's plan is to gain all the Dwarven souls because if the gods themselves vote to destroy the world, then the Dwarves don't die honorably.

    But now because of the Dwarven council of clans meeting if they vote to destroy the world because they think it is the honorable thing to do, then for all the Dwarves it becomes an honorable death instead. It might take the dominated dwarven elders to play along in the afterlife to say, "Yes I was dominated during the vote, but I without the domination I would have voted yes because it is the honorable thing to do".

    Honestly, that is the flaw in Hel's plan. It is no longer up to the gods, but up to the dwarves now. So even if the world gets destroyed, she may lose out on the Dwarves themselves.
    The dwarves who voted for it would get an honorable death, the random dwarves on the street had no say in it, their death is still dishonorable

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    The dwarves who voted for it would get an honorable death, the random dwarves on the street had no say in it, their death is still dishonorable
    But they vote on behalf of their clans. So wouldn't their clans be saved too?

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorSarda View Post
    But they vote on behalf of their clans. So wouldn't their clans be saved too?
    No, because their deaths continue to not be brought about by their own honorable actions. Honor is not delegatable.

    The bottom line is that Dvalin, the god of dwarven honor, agrees that this will condemn all dwarves to Hel. I'm going to take his view on the situation.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    It's also highly unlikely that Rich is going to consider suicide an honorable death, given what he's said every time this subject is brought up.

    It's probably not going to matter anyways, since destroying the world would effectively end the Order of the Stick as the main characters in the story.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    I raised this point when we first learned of the 'destroy the world' plot. I don't believe, even if the dwarves never learned why they died, that their deaths would be dishonorable. In fact, to die for the survival of others is the ultimate honor.

    The forum quickly shouted me down, of course. The best evidence I have heard is that Hel believes her plan will work. A supergenius deity who is intimately familiar with how her world works is in a better position than I to judge.

    But I still agree that the dwarves risking their afterlife for others is honorable whether they choose or whether it is forced on them.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    I raised this point when we first learned of the 'destroy the world' plot. I don't believe, even if the dwarves never learned why they died, that their deaths would be dishonorable. In fact, to die for the survival of others is the ultimate honor.

    The forum quickly shouted me down, of course. The best evidence I have heard is that Hel believes her plan will work. A supergenius deity who is intimately familiar with how her world works is in a better position than I to judge.

    But I still agree that the dwarves risking their afterlife for others is honorable whether they choose or whether it is forced on them.
    To die for others is honorable if you choose it, when you donít its just being killed where you stand.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    At any rate, "I disagree with Rich and/or Thor, Loki & Hel on what should count as honorable" is not a very compelling argument in the context of a hypothetical in-universe scenario.
    Last edited by hroĢila; 2019-07-30 at 09:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by hroĢila View Post
    At any rate, "I disagree with Rich and/or Thor, Loki & Hel on what should count as honorable" is not a very compelling argument in the context of a hypothetical in-universe scenario.
    And don't forget Dvalin. He himself believes those deaths won't be honorable, and I'm inclined to consider him an expert on the matter...
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Dvalin, the god of dwarven honor

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The bottom line is that Dvalin, the god of dwarven honor, agrees that this will condemn all dwarves to Hel. I'm going to take his view on the situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    And don't forget Dvalin. He himself believes those deaths won't be honorable, and I'm inclined to consider him an expert on the matter...
    More than Dvalin; none of the other gods seemed to believe that her plan wouldn't work at the Godsmoot.
    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    It's also highly unlikely that Rich is going to consider suicide an honorable death, given what he's said every time this subject is brought up.
    I think it's less suicide and more self-sacrifice. Like how O-Chul is always acting.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    It's also highly unlikely that Rich is going to consider suicide an honorable death, given what he's said every time this subject is brought up.
    Durkon's dad honorably. And look how he died.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Come to think of it, the greatest flaw in Hel's plan is Hel herself and her impatience.

    Follow my thought:

    Suppose everything that happened until Durkon's vampirization happens the same way. Then, she gets a High Level Cleric. Instead of sending him to vote in a Godsmoot and makes lots of arrangements for a tiebraker vote to be tampered, she could simply tell Durkon* to be discrete and follow the order to their final destination at Kraagor's gate. There, instead of focusing o Xykon and Team Evil, he could concentrate in trying to destroy the gate, and thus give the other gods a reason to destroy the world.

    I mean, the vote was already a close one. If the last gate fell, they would probably decide for "destroy the world".

    But she just couldn't wait...
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Itís a flaw in Helís plan if Rich says it is. I donít think thereís any way for us to argue one way or another about what is more logical or reasonable. Personally, I doubt it, but I canít prove it.

    Iím going to assume that Helís plan is a real threat because Thor and Loki are acting as if it is. I doubt theyíd turn up to run interference knowing that her plan wonít work. (Thor, maybe, to protect Durkon, but if millions of dwarven souls are off the table, Loki has no stake. He specifically sent Hilgya here to deal with things, oh, a hundred strips ago. Thatís not the action of a god with no skin in the game.) I further doubt that Rich would solve the problem like a conjurer whisking away the tablecloth and saying, ďHa ha! There was never any danger!Ē
    Last edited by Fish; 2019-07-30 at 11:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Come to think of it, the greatest flaw in Hel's plan is Hel herself and her impatience.

    Follow my thought:

    Suppose everything that happened until Durkon's vampirization happens the same way. Then, she gets a High Level Cleric. Instead of sending him to vote in a Godsmoot and makes lots of arrangements for a tiebraker vote to be tampered, she could simply tell Durkon* to be discrete and follow the order to their final destination at Kraagor's gate. There, instead of focusing o Xykon and Team Evil, he could concentrate in trying to destroy the gate, and thus give the other gods a reason to destroy the world.

    I mean, the vote was already a close one. If the last gate fell, they would probably decide for "destroy the world".

    But she just couldn't wait...
    Do you really think the gods won't destroy the world if the last Gate falls?
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Do you really think the gods won't destroy the world if the last Gate falls?
    I completely think they would.

    I believe that's what I've said, wasn't it?

    What I meant to say was that, if Hel was patient enough to play the (slightly) long game, she could focus on sending her agent to destroy the last gate, which would ensure the following Godsmoot would have a "Yes, destroy the world" result, instead of focusing on this one, where there are still many gods who are inclined to give the world a chance.
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    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
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    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    It's also highly unlikely that Rich is going to consider suicide an honorable death, given what he's said every time this subject is brought up.

    It's probably not going to matter anyways, since destroying the world would effectively end the Order of the Stick as the main characters in the story.
    The comic seems to suggest that any death in combat is honorable, even one that is tantamount to suicide, like Eugene's suggestion that dwarves all go charge at some ancient red dragon, or something (I don't remember the exact wording).

    Rich is definitely making an effort to avoid presenting suicide as a solution to any problems (even if I personally think he's not doing an ideal job in terms of symbolism - V committing suicide to save hir spouse was raised as a potential "solution," albeit by an imp, and Durkon frees his soul by baring his chest for Belkar to stab him). But I think he's doing this by steering the plot away from suicide actually resolving problems, not by further complicating the rules of the Bet to define deaths from combat, self-sacrifice, etc. that could be deemed "suicidal" as dishonorable.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    I raised this point when we first learned of the 'destroy the world' plot. I don't believe, even if the dwarves never learned why they died, that their deaths would be dishonorable. In fact, to die for the survival of others is the ultimate honor.

    The forum quickly shouted me down, of course. The best evidence I have heard is that Hel believes her plan will work. A supergenius deity who is intimately familiar with how her world works is in a better position than I to judge.

    But I still agree that the dwarves risking their afterlife for others is honorable whether they choose or whether it is forced on them.
    It's important to remember that this bet is not operating under a sane, objective definition of "honor" - it's operating under a weird one defined by at least some of the gods who made the bet. You don't need to agree with the Bet's definition of "honor" - it seems that dying from a drunken brawl would count as an honorable death, while succumbing to cancer after years of fighting to survive would be "dishonorable." Few, if any, of us would agree with this definition of honor, but it's the one in operation in this world, and we don't have to agree with it in order to acknowledge that is exists.

    You're welcome to consider it honorable to risk your afterlife for others - I certainly do - but unfortunately our opinion doesn't seem to have much to do with how the rules are being applied.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2019-07-30 at 11:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    I completely think they would.

    I believe that's what I've said, wasn't it?

    What I meant to say was that, if Hel was patient enough to play the (slightly) long game, she could focus on sending her agent to destroy the last gate, which would ensure the following Godsmoot would have a "Yes, destroy the world" result, instead of focusing on this one, where there are still many gods who are inclined to give the world a chance.
    I mean in the situation the comic is in now: If the Godsmoot votes to the spare the world and then the last Gate were to fall, do you think the gods still wouldn't destroy the world?

    That is...If Hel is banking on getting a bunch of dwarf souls (to decisively win the bet with Thor, if not dominate the rest of the Northern gods), then how many dwarf souls aren't destroyed by the Snarl becomes a vital figure. And if the gods opt to leave the world alone until the Snarl quiesces, rather than Loki's idea to agree to tear up the world after the last rift opens...Hel has a lot more to gain from winning at the Godsmoot, than going only for the Gate. (And short of a complete accounting of every dwarf vampire, getting one/some of them near the location of the Gate to break it as a consolidation prize is still on the table)
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Personally, the fact that the "standard" way to die with honor is to die in combat then I would think all the gods have to do is challenge the dwarves to a duel, or even just kill them all and claim after the fact that they were killed in combat.

    Dying in a fight against literal gods has to be honorable if dying in a fight against a tree is.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Personally, the fact that the "standard" way to die with honor is to die in combat then I would think all the gods have to do is challenge the dwarves to a duel, or even just kill them all and claim after the fact that they were killed in combat.

    Dying in a fight against literal gods has to be honorable if dying in a fight against a tree is.
    It depends on if the Dwarves fight back or if they go cry under their beds cowering from Divine Might.

    Also I'm not sure the other pantheons would let the Northern get away with manifesting to fight them directly, not to mention Hel. Hard to fight back if there's nothing there TO fight.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Iím going to assume that Helís plan is a real threat because Thor and Loki are acting as if it is. I doubt theyíd turn up to run interference knowing that her plan wonít work. (Thor, maybe, to protect Durkon, but if millions of dwarven souls are off the table, Loki has no stake. He specifically sent Hilgya here to deal with things, oh, a hundred strips ago. Thatís not the action of a god with no skin in the game.) I further doubt that Rich would solve the problem like a conjurer whisking away the tablecloth and saying, ďHa ha! There was never any danger!Ē
    Thor and Loki may also be protecting this world to keep The Dark One alive so that they will be able to contain Snarl better (maybe even forever). If the world is destroyed now, TDO will likely not survive until the next one is built and the new quiddity will be lost. Thor calls it a once-in-an-eternity opportunity. I think this is their main goal, and in the span of millions of worlds, it is more important than the possible tragedy of one generation of dwarves. Saving the dwarves en masse is only a bonus (but it comes at a price of keeping this world going, and the bet, too, so they will still be dealt a rough deal).

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Come to think of it, the greatest flaw in Hel's plan is Hel herself and her impatience.

    Follow my thought:

    Suppose everything that happened until Durkon's vampirization happens the same way. Then, she gets a High Level Cleric. Instead of sending him to vote in a Godsmoot and makes lots of arrangements for a tiebraker vote to be tampered, she could simply tell Durkon* to be discrete and follow the order to their final destination at Kraagor's gate. There, instead of focusing o Xykon and Team Evil, he could concentrate in trying to destroy the gate, and thus give the other gods a reason to destroy the world.

    I mean, the vote was already a close one. If the last gate fell, they would probably decide for "destroy the world".

    But she just couldn't wait...
    That makes much less sense you when you recall this tiebreaking situation is Plan B, and original she was just supposed to get a straight majority of the demi-gods' votes, Davlin or no Davlin.

    You're plan also carries more inherent risk of the high priest being destroyed via an Epic-level Lich Sorcerer and higher level Cleric of the Durkon than the odds of what he should have been facing. And even factoring in the unexpected variable of Hilgya, if not for Durkon pulling off something that's basically never happened before, the High Priest still would have come out as victorious against the Order, and this Plan B would be proceeding much more smoothly.

    Even with hindsight I see no reason to think your path is actually more logic than the one she decided on.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    Thor and Loki may also be protecting this world to keep The Dark One alive ...
    True, but consider: if Helís plan were unattainable, Thor and Loki could have simply said, ďYou might as well give up, you lose, itíll never work because XYZ, thereís no point blowing up the world.Ē Slam dunk, Hel has to bow out, they can go back to their day jobs. But they donít. Hell, they could have told her this days ago, or at the Godsmoot, but they didnít. They hang about, killing time, making it obvious that theyíre spying on her. Why?

    Theyíre not acting like I expect they would if they knew Helís plan were fatally flawed.
    Last edited by Fish; 2019-07-30 at 03:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    True, but consider: if Helís plan were unattainable, Thor and Loki could have simply said, ďYou might as well give up, you lose, itíll never work because XYZ, thereís no point blowing up the world.Ē Slam dunk, Hel has to bow out, they can go back to their day jobs. But they donít. Hell, they could have told her this weeks ago, but they didnít. They hang about, killing time, making it obvious that theyíre spying on her. Why?

    Theyíre not acting like I expect they would if they knew Helís plan were fatally flawed.
    To be fair, even if her plan was flawed because the deaths of all those dwarves would actually count as honorable, Thor and Loki still wouldn't want the world to be destroyed, because that would make it impossible to stop The Snarl for good. So they'd still be attempting to prevent her from achieving her goal here.

    I guess they could try persuasion, but do you think Hel would believe them if they simply told her "this won't work"? I sure don't. Even if they explained why, she'd probably be too blinded by confirmation bias to be persuaded.

    Note: it does seem exceedingly likely that her plan would work, so this is all moot.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Note: it does seem exceedingly likely that her plan would work, so this is all moot.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    I raised this point when we first learned of the 'destroy the world' plot. I don't believe, even if the dwarves never learned why they died, that their deaths would be dishonorable. In fact, to die for the survival of others is the ultimate honor.

    The forum quickly shouted me down, of course. The best evidence I have heard is that Hel believes her plan will work. A supergenius deity who is intimately familiar with how her world works is in a better position than I to judge.

    But I still agree that the dwarves risking their afterlife for others is honorable whether they choose or whether it is forced on them.
    Frankly, I feel like the fact that the world will be destroyed would mean that the bet ends effective immediately before the dwarven souls are cashed in. Tenure of this world and all.

    If Hel wins the bet without the dwarven souls, on the other hand, she could still have power enough to become a vastly more powerful goddess than before from the get go.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    To be fair, even if her plan was flawed because the deaths of all those dwarves would actually count as honorable, Thor and Loki still wouldn't want the world to be destroyed, because that would make it impossible to stop The Snarl for good. So they'd still be attempting to prevent her from achieving her goal here.
    Yes, but Hel would have no reason to accelerate the destruction of the world in that case, no reason except spite, and thatís not likely. She just got her first high-level priests in forever. Absent her grand scheme to win all the marbles, she has less reason to destroy this world than most. She might even view any attempt to destroy the world as an attempt to undermine her power.

    Also: if Thor and Loki have some way of knowing her plan is flawed, sheíd probably have the same perception. And Hel isnít acting like the souls of all those dwarves are something sheíll have to wrangle over in negotiations.
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    Morty's Avatar

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Ultimately it doesn't really matter if Hel's plan can work or not. She believes it does and the other gods seem to agree. If the world is destroyed, our heroes still die and the purple quiddity might be lost forever. So the heroes are still going to stop her and Thor and Loki are going to help them - which is exactly what's happening. However the entire thing plays out, I'm reasonably confident "Hel's plan is dumb and doomed to fail anyway" won't be how it happens.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gulaghar and Purple Eagle.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    True, but consider: if Helís plan were unattainable, Thor and Loki could have simply said, ďYou might as well give up, you lose, itíll never work because XYZ, thereís no point blowing up the world.Ē Slam dunk, Hel has to bow out, they can go back to their day jobs. But they donít. Hell, they could have told her this days ago, or at the Godsmoot, but they didnít. They hang about, killing time, making it obvious that theyíre spying on her. Why?

    Theyíre not acting like I expect they would if they knew Helís plan were fatally flawed.
    Mostly, what Emanick said. If their main motivation to make Hel fail is to keep TDO around, they will work against her regardless of how flawed or unflawed her plan is. They want to keep this world running.

    But if Hel's plan is fatally flawed, perhaps keeping her in the dark about that is their (Thor's) backup for saving at least some dwarven souls. Knowledge is power and all that. Why give Hel time to prepare for the negotiations? The argument that the dwarven sacrifice means honourable deaths for all of them is wobbly at best. I wonder what would happen if Thor played it anyway and refused to back down? Hel wouldn't back down either (the bulk of souls being what she is after). Would someone impartial judge the case? Who? Other pantheons? The Northern gods would be biased, they would be affected by the power balance of the pantheon in the new world.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Fish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    Mostly, what Emanick said. If their main motivation to make Hel fail is to keep TDO around, they will work against her regardless of how flawed or unflawed her plan is.
    Yes, I follow the logic. And I agree that Helís plan is likely to be sound. I am arguing to that effect. Iíve already pointed out that she and Thor and Loki are acting as if this is the case. More importantly, the story tells us that this is the plot, and I doubt Rich would try to convince us that these are the stakes in his story if itís not true. Such a move would trivialize the drama. It would be an anticlimax.

    My point is this: whether or not they have another motive for saving the world, ďmaking her plan failĒ seems to be more work, requiring more hands-on presence, than ďconvincing her not to have a plan at all.Ē I am therefore commenting on the epistemological certainty of Thorís and Lokiís knowledge about her planís chance of success. IF it is unsound, Thor and Loki cannot have incontrovertible evidence to that effect, or they would likely have used it. Therefore, it is either sound (and they can prove it), sound (and they only suspect it), or unsound (yet they have no evidence Hel would find convincing).
    Last edited by Fish; 2019-07-30 at 05:07 PM.

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