The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Roy dying in the Southern Continent didn't mean that the Twelve Gods were in charge of his soul. Dwarves are bound by the bet bet no matter where they are, I'd wager.
    My guess is that there just aren't any dwarven populations outside of the Northern Continent, and thus all dwarves are born in the North, placing them under the purview of the Northern Gods.

    You might be wondering why there are no Dwarves anywhere else. I'd also like to know. But it's not entirely unprecedented; the Elven Lands are in the Western Continent, and all Elves we've seen outside it were travelers or adventurers of some sort.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    And that italicized part is IMO a flaw in Hel's plan, though perhaps an indirect one. For the gods who have created millions of worlds, and have had to thanks to the snarl, all gods benefit from a situation where the Snarl can finally be contained. That benefits Hel as well as all of the other gods. Her plan's flaw, in this perspective, is rooted in hr inability to (1) look to the long term, and (2) to look past her own desires.
    If the current world continues isn't she stuck with the current arrangement? It would seem to behove her to make sure that this world ends, especially if a means may have been found to continue it indefinitely

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    The important difference there is that with Xykon and Redcloack it's long since been foreshadowed that their plans aren't as likely to work as they think they are. It's a part of the story that Redcloak has long since been planning to use the Snarl for TDO rather than Xykon's attempts at becoming the ruler of the world and it's also a part of the plot that Redcloak's plan isn't nearly as reliable as he'd like to think it is and that he's mainly motivated by the fact that he can't accept that all the sacrifices he's made so far would be for nothing.

    With Hel's plan not working it'd be different since every single character who knows about it treats it as a real threat, including the gods themselves. Having her plan suddenly turn out to not work at all would be a whole lot different than with Xykon and Redcloak.

    Also neither of those characters are not literal gods, and even if Hel has been deprived of proper nutrition I'd still give a god a couple more points in being aware whether a plan stands a chance of working or not, especially if no other god appears ready to point out to her that there might be a fatal flaw in there.
    I'll point you to this other post

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepy hedgehog View Post
    I'm not sure if Loki even had/needed a plan.
    They've made millions of these worlds, and this is just one of the millions that will come after it.
    It's not all that different than my friends and I sitting down and playing a board game.
    And someone saying, "I bet you can't win without going hard economy."
    Other than, it's a little more enforced into the game rules.

    Additionally, I'm not sure how much Hel even considers this a flaw.
    It's literally causing her to go crazy.
    Obviously she'd much rather get all the souls.
    But I think (and I'm speculating here) that given the choice, Hel would rather end this world, and give up all of the souls, than let it keep going.

    To continue my board game metaphor:
    At some point in the game you've realized you've lost.
    You've lost so hard, in fact, that it's stopped being fun.
    You may as well end this one, and take the loss, so you can't start a new one.
    But you may as well make a Hail Mary, an all in attempt, first.
    Which is pretty much what Hel is doing.
    So yeah, Hel's in a losing position where she really doesn't have any good options left. She can't escape the bet while the current world lasts. If the Snarl gets properly trapped, Hel is stuck with soul starvation for an indefenite amount of time. The whole "get dwarves to vote for the world to be destroyed then get all their souls" is a desperate gambit where lots of things could go wrong and chances of success are low, but even if Hel didn't get a single soul, if she can get this world destroyed and start a new game world where she won't be limited by the bet anymore it would still be an improvement for her position.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    And that italicized part is IMO a flaw in Hel's plan, though perhaps an indirect one. For the gods who have created millions of worlds, and have had to thanks to the snarl, all gods benefit from a situation where the Snarl can finally be contained. That benefits Hel as well as all of the other gods. Her plan's flaw, in this perspective, is rooted in hr inability to (1) look to the long term, and (2) to look past her own desires.
    Thing is, if this world endures, Hel remains stuck with the bet where she only gets soul scraps if that.

    Maybe it's beneficial for the gods as a whole in average, but for Hel in particular it would mean being stuck at the bottom of the divine hierarchy for countless eons.

    Plus she already survived the snarl for a zillion iterations, what's a zillion more?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    So yeah, Hel's in a losing position where she really doesn't have any good options left. She can't escape the bet while the current world lasts. If the Snarl gets properly trapped, Hel is stuck with soul starvation for an indefenite amount of time. The whole "get dwarves to vote for the world to be destroyed then get all their souls" is a desperate gambit where lots of things could go wrong and chances of success are low, but even if Hel didn't get a single soul, if she can get this world destroyed and start a new game world where she won't be limited by the bet anymore it would still be an improvement for her position.
    That doesn't really address the points I made, namely that from a narrative perspective it'd be dissatisfying (on average, since I imagine there would be people who'd find it hilarious), and that in-universe everyone, including people who you'd think might know better, seems to believe that things would proceed the way Hel expects them to proceed.

    Yes there's a rational perspective which shows that Hel could/would take this path even if she isn't sure whether it'd work because even if the soul gathering failed she'd at least be free from the Bet, but it's not the only perspective available (the other being that Hel is fully confident that it'll work and has every reason to believe it will), and narratively speaking there's been a severe lack of indication that the first perspective is the correct one.

    The plan being flawed and Hel carrying on with it nonetheless is possible, but context makes it unlikely.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    In that case it raises the question of how the northern gods were able to lock out the other two pantheons from claiming any dwarven souls in the first place.

    Like, what if a dwarf worships one of the southern or western gods, rather than a northern god
    Then if they die with honor they go to that god's domain, otherwise Hel gets them.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Then if they die with honor they go to that god's domain, otherwise Hel gets them.
    I believe that is only the case if they are priests of that Southern/Eastern god. Regular blokes all go to the same generic plane - see the mountain where Roy is surrounded by Southern casualties (even if they do have different queues to access the mountain). Which, if anything, might make the other pantheons uninterested in trying to poach dwarves from the North - there is a substantial cost in clerics, and the payoff is blunted if you don't get their souls in your domain.

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    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I believe that is only the case if they are priests of that Southern/Eastern god. Regular blokes all go to the same generic plane - see the mountain where Roy is surrounded by Southern casualties (even if they do have different queues to access the mountain). Which, if anything, might make the other pantheons uninterested in trying to poach dwarves from the North - there is a substantial cost in clerics, and the payoff is blunted if you don't get their souls in your domain.

    Grey Wolf
    While that does make sense, we've only seen the afterlife of people who weren't particularly pious (Roy), that we knew nothing about their piety (most of the Azurites on the mountain), and one person who worshipped the entire pantheon as a whole (the high priest).

    If the pious don't get claimed by their respective deities that would be an example of Rich overriding great wheel cosmology, which while he has every right to do so we don't have any solid evidence he has that I'm aware of.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    I kind of assumed that the High Priest and the other religious casualties of the battle would be sent to their chosen god(s)’ domain by the deva doing their review.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    The bet is between Thor and Hel. I do not see why the other pantheons are required to honor that bet, with respect to dwarves who grow up with a different religion within the continent they dominate.

    Or, rather, we have no information to indicate that other pantheons view dwarves as the exclusive property of the Northern pantheon. It is possible that they do. We know of only one very large group of dwarves, and that is in the Northern pantheon -- whether such is evidence of something important is hard to say.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    It seems like the best option at this point is all parties involved just agree to drop the bet. It seems fairly likely that happens eventually.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    The bet is between Thor and Hel. I do not see why the other pantheons are required to honor that bet, with respect to dwarves who grow up with a different religion within the continent they dominate.

    Or, rather, we have no information to indicate that other pantheons view dwarves as the exclusive property of the Northern pantheon. It is possible that they do. We know of only one very large group of dwarves, and that is in the Northern pantheon -- whether such is evidence of something important is hard to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    It seems like the best option at this point is all parties involved just agree to drop the bet. It seems fairly likely that happens eventually.
    That has been discussed time and time again, and we really don't have a canon description about how the bet thing works in this details, but, if I had to create a theory, I'd go with something like this:

    The bet was made during the creation of this world. The gods take turns and accept what the other gods put into the configurations of the world, in order to not create another Snarl. In Hel, or Loki, or Thor's turns, they established, as "rules of the world", that no living creature could be cleric of Hel, and that all the dwarves go to Hel, except for those who die with honor.

    If that's so, reversing the bet may be a bit difficult, because involves changing the very rules of the world, but maybe the Gods, in a Godsmoot, may be able to do something like that without having to destroy and rebuild the world (I think it would be similar to updating to a new edition).
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    The not changing anything during the world's tenure is probably going to have to go out the window eventually anyways given their efforts to recruit The Dark One. A bet between two Gods who both are unhappy with the situation that can easily be dropped by just treating the dwarves the same as any other mortals is a relatively easy alteration to make compared to bringing The Dark One into the loop.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    The bet is between Thor and Hel. I do not see why the other pantheons are required to honor that bet, with respect to dwarves who grow up with a different religion within the continent they dominate.

    Or, rather, we have no information to indicate that other pantheons view dwarves as the exclusive property of the Northern pantheon. It is possible that they do. We know of only one very large group of dwarves, and that is in the Northern pantheon -- whether such is evidence of something important is hard to say.
    We know that the place they live in is called "The Dwarven Lands", now if there was another naion of dwarves somewhere else, it wouldn,'t be called that. I mean, it might if this was a serious comic with a ASOIF-level of intricate background, but in this comic, there are laces called Nottinstory so I think we can take the names at face value.

    Like-wise, the Elven Lands are on th ewestern Continent and every single elf we know of was from there. Not only that, but their gods are a subset of the Western Pantheon for Moot purposes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    ... their gods are a subset of the Western Pantheon for Moot purposes.
    LOL

    I'm not sure if that was your intention, but

    LOL
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles don’t hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, can’t be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

    "I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    LOL

    I'm not sure if that was your intention, but

    LOL
    I don't get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I don't get it.
    Given OotS context, "For Moot purposes" means "for the purposes of the Godsmoot". But outside of that context, it becomes a nonsensical statement as "moot" and "purposes" contradict each other. You made a pun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari
    Also this isn’t D&D, flaming the troll doesn’t help either.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    Given OotS context, "For Moot purposes" means "for the purposes of the Godsmoot". But outside of that context, it becomes a nonsensical statement as "moot" and "purposes" contradict each other. You made a pun.
    In unrelated news, I like dissecting frogs.
    Oh, I get it.

    The Giant did not make that meaning up, you know. The Godsmoot is literally a moot of the gods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    This might be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to mention the witena gemot in this forum, so I'm taking it.
    ungelic is us

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Come to think of it, the greatest flaw in Hel's plan is Hel herself and her impatience.

    Follow my thought:

    Suppose everything that happened until Durkon's vampirization happens the same way. Then, she gets a High Level Cleric. Instead of sending him to vote in a Godsmoot and makes lots of arrangements for a tiebraker vote to be tampered, she could simply tell Durkon* to be discrete and follow the order to their final destination at Kraagor's gate. There, instead of focusing o Xykon and Team Evil, he could concentrate in trying to destroy the gate, and thus give the other gods a reason to destroy the world.

    I mean, the vote was already a close one. If the last gate fell, they would probably decide for "destroy the world".

    But she just couldn't wait...
    Hel has screwed up repeatedly. In fact, she is pretty immature and childish.

    For example, she could just not have revealed what she was trying to do at the Godsmoot. This might have changed two things:

    1) Hermod just might not have switched his vote. Hard to say. The gloating and revealing her plan did not help her there, at least.

    2) It would have made the opposition to her activities much more half-hearted. Durkula could have pretended that he cared about the souls of the world and so could Hel to a degree. Roy was not certain that Heimdall wasn't right. The Order still probably would have fought Durkula's plans, but they would have been more half-hearted.

    This is also pointed out by Loki, how a premature villain gloat from Hel means he is a failure as a parent. Sure, he's being sarcastic, but he's also making a point. Furthermore, we also know that the gods are able to be evasive in stating their motivations for their votes - Thrym at least was evasive and did not open up what he actual motives were.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    This might be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to mention the witena gemot in this forum, so I'm taking it.
    Great link, thanks, I'm keeping that one in a bookmark.
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Hel has certainly made some amateurish mistakes, but I'm not sure biding her time until the Order confronted Xykon would necessarily be the way to go. Keep in mind, there are at least two other sides in play with their own agenda for the gates. Redcloak and Xykon's team might still very well outclass the Order. At least one of them had concrete plans to betray the other. The MitD is a big unknown factor (he's leaning towards helping the good guys, but given his demonstrated lack of knowledge or control of his own abilities, the only thing that is certain is that he'll contribute to the uncertainty of the situation.)

    I'm not sure about the whole ritual with the Gate. I vaguely remember someone talking about Team Evil having to control the gate for a while to implement their plan, which would imply that they're doomed to failure (since the gods have stated that all they need is the few minutes warning when the last gate falls to destroy it before the Snarl escapes.) I don't actually know how true that first statement is, since it might have come from misinformation Redcloak was feeding the Xykon or his minions, or an inference made by the paladins as to why Xykon didn't just bum rush the Soon's gate instead of trying to occupy the city. If there's even a chance they can succeed, then the last thing Hel would want to do is to wait and roll the dice. The whole point is that she wants to gain an advantage by exploiting the gods' rules and the rules of her wager, but if the Dark One actually gains control of the Snarl and blackmails to the other gods, I'm pretty sure

    Maybe Durkula whacks the gate before Xykon or Redcloak neutralizes him. That's far from certain. Team Evil still outclasses them I think. Everyone else has leveled some, and Roy's gained a few very powerful anti-caster, anti-undead tools, but Xykon's got two, possibly three people with epic levels, and the enemy cleric will be their first or second target. Also, Durkula will have to be pretty manipulative. Destroying the gate is no longer a viable last resort to keep it from falling into enemy hands, so trying to do so would put Durkula alone against multiple hostiles, including a the guy with the shiny new anti-caster, anti-undead abilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
    Hel has screwed up repeatedly. In fact, she is pretty immature and childish.
    A natural result of being starved of soul food for so long. You try to keep going on just scraps for centuries, let's see how well your malnourished brain works.

    As they say, ""Civilization is two meals and twenty-four hours away from barbarism". Hunger can override all other thoughts pretty fast.


    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
    This is also pointed out by Loki, how a premature villain gloat from Hel means he is a failure as a parent. Sure, he's being sarcastic, but he's also making a point.
    If keeping your child starving for centuries doesn't count as being a failure as a parent, I don't know what does.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-08-03 at 08:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    If keeping your child starving for centuries doesn't count as being a failure as a parent, I don't know what does.
    If you give your child a fish, she eats for a day.

    If you ruthless withhold your fish from your child, you force her to learn to fish and she eats for a lifetime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    If you give your child a fish, she eats for a day.

    If you ruthless withhold your fish from your child, you force her to learn to fish and she eats for a lifetime.
    Except in this case the parent is sabotaging all of the child's attempts to fish on her own and even when the child manages to catch some fish, the parent calls the big burly alcoholic uncle to burst inside the child's room and take her fresh fish, before the parent follows to take any fish the big burly alocholic uncle missed in the child's room.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-08-04 at 02:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Except in this case the parent is sabotaging all of the child's attempts to fish on her own and even when the child manages to catch some fish, the parent calls his big burly alcoholic uncle to burst inside the child's room and take her fresh fish, before the parent follows to take any fish the big burly alocholic uncle missed in the child's room.
    ... in which case the child learns to be Aquaman. (The Jason Mamoa one, not the lame one.)

    Obviously I'm kidding, but the trope of the well-intentioned parent taking the whole tough love thing way too far is pretty common among evil characters. And Red Foreman. Loki's EC-ness makes both comically bad tough love and just being an abusive parent pretty equally plausible.
    Last edited by Xyril; 2019-08-04 at 02:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    The bet is between Thor and Hel. I do not see why the other pantheons are required to honor that bet, with respect to dwarves who grow up with a different religion within the continent they dominate.

    Or, rather, we have no information to indicate that other pantheons view dwarves as the exclusive property of the Northern pantheon. It is possible that they do. We know of only one very large group of dwarves, and that is in the Northern pantheon -- whether such is evidence of something important is hard to say.
    Hel says the dwarves fall under her preview. I took that to mean that all, or almost all, dwarves come from the northern continent.

    Also, IIRC there was a quote by the Giant where he said that almost all dwarves live in a single country, as do the elves.
    Nope: I found the quote I was thinking of, but it only mentions elves and gnomes, not dwarves.
    Last edited by 137ben; 2019-08-04 at 05:42 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    If keeping your child starving for centuries doesn't count as being a failure as a parent, I don't know what does.
    Honestly I'm just impressed you had a kid who was alive for centuries.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Honestly I'm just impressed you had a kid who was alive for centuries.
    Yeah, that's longer than most kids last. Hey, if you kept your kid alive for several times the average human life expectancy, who am I to question your parenting methods?
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Far as I'm concerned, anyone can sig anything I say anytime.

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Honestly I'm just impressed you had a kid who was alive for centuries.
    That's minimum standard for several races such as all the elven variants.

    Also possible in the modern world for a certain definiton of "alive". Like you can keep cancer cells "alive" basically forever as long as you feed them nutrients. How does turning your child into a cancerous mass sounds for parenting?
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-08-05 at 05:03 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Flaw in Hel's Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    That's minimum standard for several races such as all the elven variants.

    Also possible in the modern world for a certain definiton of "alive". Like you can keep cancer cells "alive" basically forever as long as you feed them nutrients. How does turning your child into a cancerous mass sounds for parenting?
    Sounds like Deadpool to me...
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles don’t hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, can’t be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

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