The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    It was released as Trials Of Mana earlier this year.
    ...HOW DID I NOT KNOW THIS???

    ...And it's coming to STEAM??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    FFXIII actually had a good combat and class system. It's just that it's chained to that awful, awful story. They don't actually give you the freedom to make your own party compositions until like 25 hours into the game, and it's not fun until then.
    I would argue that FFXIII's combat system doesn't actually get good until after you've completed the game because that's when everyone has all classes available.

    And there are only half a dozen fights that actually make you work with the system in anything other than the most trivial way. (ones where you have to paradigm shift roughly as often as you'd choose actions in previous games).

    Also also the system responds incredibly poorly to having fewer than three characters available because it means you have a very small number of role combinations available.

    But most of the story has the party split into groups of two.

    So for most of the game you have far too few role options available to make any meaningful choices and battles are very rote because your options are so constrained that there's always exactly one way to win.

    Also the story is nonsense where it isn't absent and Snow is a pillock and the only good bits are when Lightning punches him in the face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ...HOW DID I NOT KNOW THIS???

    ...And it's coming to STEAM??

    *collapses into a frothing pile*
    WARNING: The 'Trials of Mana' game that is coming out later this year is the 'Remastered' version. And we all know how THAT went for Secret of Mana... so I wouldn't get aboard this hype train unless we are sure they haven't 'fixed' things that weren't broken.

    Having said that, Collection of Mana for the Switch seems to indicate that it is the original SNES/Super Famicon versions, which makes it MUCH more attractive in my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    I would argue that FFXIII's combat system doesn't actually get good until after you've completed the game because that's when everyone has all classes available.

    And there are only half a dozen fights that actually make you work with the system in anything other than the most trivial way. (ones where you have to paradigm shift roughly as often as you'd choose actions in previous games).

    Also also the system responds incredibly poorly to having fewer than three characters available because it means you have a very small number of role combinations available.

    But most of the story has the party split into groups of two.

    So for most of the game you have far too few role options available to make any meaningful choices and battles are very rote because your options are so constrained that there's always exactly one way to win.

    Also the story is nonsense where it isn't absent and Snow is a pillock and the only good bits are when Lightning punches him in the face.
    That's basically the same thing I said. It's a decent system, but it's tied to an awful story and they don't take the chains off of you and let you enjoy it for far too long. Most people are going to give up on the game long before they ever get to the point where the combat system really shines.

    Ironically, Snow was one of the only characters I liked. He's the only character on the cast that's actually a decent person. The rest are only out for themselves, while Snow actually wants to help people. Sazh was pretty cool too, but the rest are all completely self centered. They're not bad people, but they sure aren't good people either.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2019-08-03 at 08:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    WARNING: The 'Trials of Mana' game that is coming out later this year is the 'Remastered' version. And we all know how THAT went for Secret of Mana... so I wouldn't get aboard this hype train unless we are sure they haven't 'fixed' things that weren't broken.

    Having said that, Collection of Mana for the Switch seems to indicate that it is the original SNES/Super Famicon versions, which makes it MUCH more attractive in my opinion.
    Incorrect. It's a full remake, not a remaster.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Incorrect. It's a full remake, not a remaster.
    Even worse...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    That's basically the same thing I said. It's a decent system, but it's tied to an awful story and they don't take the chains off of you and let you enjoy it for far too long. Most people are going to give up on the game long before they ever get to the point where the combat system really shines.

    Ironically, Snow was one of the only characters I liked. He's the only character on the cast that's actually a decent person. The rest are only out for themselves, while Snow actually wants to help people. Sazh was pretty cool too, but the rest are all completely self centered. They're not bad people, but they sure aren't good people either.
    I never felt like Snow was doing that out of a genuine desire to be helpful, it felt more like he was doing it to feed his own ego.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    I never felt like Snow was doing that out of a genuine desire to be helpful, it felt more like he was doing it to feed his own ego.
    I can definitely see how you'd think so. He does come off that way. Regardless, whatever his motivations are, he does personally sacrifice to help other people over and over again, especially in the sequels to the main game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I can definitely see how you'd think so. He does come off that way. Regardless, whatever his motivations are, he does personally sacrifice to help other people over and over again, especially in the sequels to the main game.
    Which leads to another problem of the game - the sequels. That's sequels, plural.

    Look, some of the most popular games did get sequels or spinoffs. FFIV got The After Years, VII got Dirge of Cerberus. You can debate whether X deserved X-2.

    But XIII is a freaking trilogy. That is so unjustified as to be offensive. It takes a game which, at its heart, had some decent story and characters, some gorgeous graphics, and a frankly frustrating handholding for the first day or so of gameplay, and decides, "You know what this game needs? Two more games."

    Still gets me unreasonably angry, to this day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Still gets me unreasonably angry, to this day.
    Oh man, yeah. I think I fell off my chair when I saw they would be an FFXIII-2. Like, XIII isn't terrible. I liked the character design. Even the story has some merits if you look at it from the right angle. But there's no way it deserved two sequels!

    You know, I think I'm gonna check out Bravely Default. It looks like my sort of thing!
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    XIII-2 is actually better than XIII. You have basically full access to the battle system from the start, Serah and Noel are better characters to be around, and some of the story is actually in the game.

    Some people actually like Lightning Returns as well. I did not get on with it mechanically and I was not particularly invested in Lightning returning.

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    XIII is awful in every single way. The story is a mess, the characters are all unlikeable and flat, (I've never disliked a villain as much as I do Snow), the character dialogue feels like it was all made by an AI, and the combat is a mess.

    There really isn't much of a job system in XIII, for while you may have only part of the spell list available at any particular time, ultimately you're choosing things depending on the character since everyone has unique spell lists within each role. Vanille for instance lacks Haste, which means you're never gonna use her as your primary synergist. And some are just plain inferior than others in a given role. Anything Hope can do as a Commando, Fang does as well and more still. Again, not that it matters because you're only really getting a choice in party composition and setup when the game's just about over. Up until that point, the games go on auto pilot... except it can't even get that right because you still have to tap a button all throughout the fight to win. It's rare that there's a fight that requires you swapping out of your gambits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    You know, I think I'm gonna check out Bravely Default. It looks like my sort of thing!
    Or maybe not... £81.22?!?



    Edit: I got a second-hand copy for £40.
    Last edited by Ninja_Prawn; 2019-08-04 at 10:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Which leads to another problem of the game - the sequels. That's sequels, plural.

    Look, some of the most popular games did get sequels or spinoffs. FFIV got The After Years, VII got Dirge of Cerberus. You can debate whether X deserved X-2.

    But XIII is a freaking trilogy. That is so unjustified as to be offensive. It takes a game which, at its heart, had some decent story and characters, some gorgeous graphics, and a frankly frustrating handholding for the first day or so of gameplay, and decides, "You know what this game needs? Two more games."

    Still gets me unreasonably angry, to this day.
    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    XIII-2 is actually better than XIII. You have basically full access to the battle system from the start, Serah and Noel are better characters to be around, and some of the story is actually in the game.

    Some people actually like Lightning Returns as well. I did not get on with it mechanically and I was not particularly invested in Lightning returning.
    I was not a fan of XIII. XIII-2 was slightly better.

    Lightning Returns however, I had a ton of fun with. Definitely top 5 PS3 games for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    Or maybe not... £81.22?!?

    Edit: I got a second-hand copy for £40.
    I know it's not the same as having a physical copy, but Bravely Default and Bravely Second are still available via Nintendo eShop if you have trouble finding them at reasonable prices. Free demos are also available- I haven't played the Bravely Second demo, but I know the Bravely Default one gets you a mixture of midgame jobs with a shortened ability list to help you get a taste of the job system and combat.
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    The sequels to FFXIII were planned from the start. The whole thing was a concerted effort to make a cohesive Final Fantasy universe and they were already working on multiple games at the same time, which is the most likely reason it got so many games despite not being great. Even FFXV was originally supposed to be set in the XIII universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maryring View Post
    XIII is awful in every single way. The story is a mess, the characters are all unlikeable and flat, (I've never disliked a villain as much as I do Snow), the character dialogue feels like it was all made by an AI, and the combat is a mess.

    There really isn't much of a job system in XIII, for while you may have only part of the spell list available at any particular time, ultimately you're choosing things depending on the character since everyone has unique spell lists within each role. Vanille for instance lacks Haste, which means you're never gonna use her as your primary synergist. And some are just plain inferior than others in a given role. Anything Hope can do as a Commando, Fang does as well and more still. Again, not that it matters because you're only really getting a choice in party composition and setup when the game's just about over. Up until that point, the games go on auto pilot... except it can't even get that right because you still have to tap a button all throughout the fight to win. It's rare that there's a fight that requires you swapping out of your gambits.
    I agree that the game wasn't good, but a lot of this is objectively untrue. The part about not changing gambits in particular is nonsense. For all of the "it plays itself" complaints about the gambit system, it definitely requires more player input than most Final Fantasy games.

    Also while it's true certain characters are better at certain roles, it doesn't mean the others are useless. Vanille might not get access to haste, but she can easily cast other buffs that you'll want while your other synergist casts haste, effectively halving the time you'll spend buffing before you can do something else. Snow has a crappy magic stat and doesn't get good magic, but his cast time is half of every other character, making him the best ravager in the game. A lot of the characters are actually very good outside of their "intended' role if you actually take the time to try it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    By not being a sequel.

    FFT tells a very specific story about the history of the Kingdom of Ivalice. It tells a tragic story of war, conspiracy, religion, and betrayal. The tone is grim. Additionally, character death may be permanent.

    FFTA tells a very specific story about the fantasy land of Ivalice that exists inside of a magical book. It abandons some of FFT's specific mechanics, like the elaborate zodiac system, and simplifies and streamlines a lot. Also, with the exception of lawless areas called Jagds, death is not permanent.

    FFTA2 follows in FFTA's style and simplified mechanics, but ostensibly occurs in the FFT version of Ivalice. Thematically, however, it is more a successor to FFTA than FFT.

    So, there's your answer. Not exactly a sequel.
    You forgot to mention that god-awful law system that can invalidate your class choices for the vast majority of the game. Or the terrible terrible auction system from FFTA2 that you either use to break the game wide open or basically ignore.

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    Well, to rein the discussion nearer to the OP... FFX-2 actually had a mighty nice job system. Don't know why I didn't remember it earlier. The fanservice got silly enough to get off-putting for me, but your three ladies can all go into whatever job, even changing during battle (which can be its own little powerup with proper preparation). Further jobs open up as the chapters progress. About the only thing that doesn't fit is the fixed protagonistas.

    The rest of the game, though, was really hit-or-miss in story, mechanics, and atmosphere.

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    So, been playing DQ6... man, you forget about the crap that older RPGs pull. A slog of a dungeon, a point of no return halfway through, no save points and a two-phase boss with a big ol' difficulty spike in phase 2. The most annoying part is that this, from what I gather, is the last thing before Alltrades and class changing opens up, so all I can do is grind until I have the levels and gear to weather a boss that's spamming two AoE spells a turn. If I had job changing I could at least focus on getting abilities that would specifically help.

    Also annoyingly, I forgot how saving in DQ works and shut off my game when I lost. Not that it makes all that much difference, I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogremindes View Post
    So, been playing DQ6... man, you forget about the crap that older RPGs pull. A slog of a dungeon, a point of no return halfway through, no save points and a two-phase boss with a big ol' difficulty spike in phase 2. The most annoying part is that this, from what I gather, is the last thing before Alltrades and class changing opens up, so all I can do is grind until I have the levels and gear to weather a boss that's spamming two AoE spells a turn. If I had job changing I could at least focus on getting abilities that would specifically help.

    Also annoyingly, I forgot how saving in DQ works and shut off my game when I lost. Not that it makes all that much difference, I suppose.
    You should have someone with an item that, when used in combat, is a Midheal, unlimited uses. And while I don't think you can have the Meteorite Armband yet, you can have an agility armlet, which helps make sure that whoever has it can reliably go first. Coupled with the fact that your other member of the party should have a Multiheal spell as well, you should be good to go at any kind of a decent level. Classic Dragon Warrior tactics, your beatsticks beat and your healbots heal. Also, getting a Kabuff or two down is clutch.

    Something that makes the second fight hugely easier is leaving one of the initial minions alive. Not only will he not resummon even more dangerous minions if you leave one alive, but they should only be doing chip damage with one or two Kabuffs up. Focus on the main villain. Then when you kill him, everyone guards except the one with the Midheal staff. Heal up on free charges of the staff, and proceed to the second fight relatively fresh.

    You are correct, this is what unlocks Alltrades Abby and the class system.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2019-08-10 at 09:07 PM.
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    Does DQ VI not simply send you back to town with half your money when you die, just like every previous game in the series?

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    Uh... Far as I can tell noone gets multiheal naturally, and I don't recall any summoned minions in phase 2. Just lots of AoE attacks.

    And yes, that's what would've happened if I hadn't shut off the game when I died. I kinda forgot about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Does DQ VI not simply send you back to town with half your money when you die, just like every previous game in the series?
    It does, and there's a banking system you can use to 'save' cash in increments of 1k. However, the location he's talking about is pretty obnoxious to get back to, having to go through a fairly long and dangerous cave system, then immediately going into the boss's castle itself without any friendly town. So there's a significant time factor in getting back to the fight in question. Although I *think* there's a way to create a Zoom spot in the castle itself, if you talk to someone, so once you get there teleporting back is easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogremindes View Post
    Uh... Far as I can tell noone gets multiheal naturally, and I don't recall any summoned minions in phase 2. Just lots of AoE attacks.

    And yes, that's what would've happened if I hadn't shut off the game when I died. I kinda forgot about that.
    Phase 1 has two minions. Kill one, leave the other alive. Heal up with the staff before killing second minion and triggering second phase. Phase 2 won't trigger until the entire battle is complete.

    Milly naturally learns Midheal at level 13. Nevan starts out with it, plus has the staff. If Milly doesn't know Midheal yet, you can hand her the Staff of Ghent and let her spam the staff while Nevan casts off of mana. Milly also learns Kabuff at 18.

    Also, if you found the Fire Claw in the castle itself, it can be used as an item to cast Frizzle, which is pretty impressive single-target damage, in addition to being one of the best weapons for Carver for quite some time.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2019-08-10 at 10:05 PM.
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    FFXIII is a good game that can be an amazing experience or an atrocious experience depending on a gamer's individual tastes, but it's not what I'd call a job system game in the way I understand Ogermindes is looking for. A typical job system game has you designing a party with a mix of jobs to handle the game (if jobs are chosen once at the start of the game) or your next fight/dungeon (if jobs can be changed between battles). FFXIII has you dynamically changing roles during combat as combat conditions change--if you need a round of recovery, everyone should be healing/defending, or if you have the enemy vulnerable, everyone should be in max damage mode. It's a different philosophy that encourages general development of all roles instead of specific focus and specialization in 1 or a few jobs.

    As far as job-based RPGs I might recommend, everything I've played of has already been mentioned. I'll add my voice to those saying Bravely Default.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Which leads to another problem of the game - the sequels. That's sequels, plural.

    Look, some of the most popular games did get sequels or spinoffs. FFIV got The After Years, VII got Dirge of Cerberus. You can debate whether X deserved X-2.

    But XIII is a freaking trilogy. That is so unjustified as to be offensive. It takes a game which, at its heart, had some decent story and characters, some gorgeous graphics, and a frankly frustrating handholding for the first day or so of gameplay, and decides, "You know what this game needs? Two more games."

    Still gets me unreasonably angry, to this day.
    Even as a massive fan of FFXIII I was irritated by the decision to make two more games for it. The original game has a complete story that in no way needs a sequel. I'm pretty sure the decision was a financial one; S-E had (then) FFvs.XIII floundering in development hell and had just had FFXIV flop hard. Releasing two more FFXIII games with heavily recycled assets (especially for FFXIII-2) allowed them to keep making FF "mainline" games on the cheap while they devoted a ton of resources towards fixing FFXIV.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: "Job System" JRPGs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    So, there's your answer. Not exactly a sequel.
    None of the FFs are sequels, though. So... Are they all ripping each other off, or... I guess, Crystals, right? Crystals.
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: "Job System" JRPGs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Burley View Post
    None of the FFs are sequels, though. So... Are they all ripping each other off, or... I guess, Crystals, right? Crystals.
    ... none?

    There are plenty of sequels. IV, VII, X, XIII, T at least got them. And VII is supposedly set after X, and T and XII are definitely both Ivalice. Then thereís II-IV speculation. And probably more I donít remember.
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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: "Job System" JRPGs?

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    ... none?

    There are plenty of sequels. IV, VII, X, XIII, T at least got them. And VII is supposedly set after X, and T and XII are definitely both Ivalice. Then thereís II-IV speculation. And probably more I donít remember.
    This.

    I mean, there are common elements throughout - Cid, chocobos, crystals, dragoons or airships named Highwind - but some are pretty explicitly sequels. As I mentioned in another post, TAY and X-2 are explicitly sequels. VII had, come to think of it, not only DoC but also Crisis Core, which is admittedly a prequel.

    And then, as mentioned, there are the games referred to as the "Ivalice Alliance." This includes XII, the XII spinoff Revenant Wings, FFT, and technically TA and TA2, although TA's Ivalice differs from the "actual" Ivalice. They all otherwise take place in the same timeline of the same universe. So, sequels, prequels, side-stories and spinoffs aplenty!

    I mean, if you really want an Ivalice game that dramatically differs from the rest, you could look at Vagrant Story. But at that point all it really has in common with the rest is the fact that it takes place in a very specific corner of Ivalice.
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