OOTS #1173 - The Discussion Thread

[pendell]

Also I thought Vaarsuvius's four words were uttered right before touching the blue orb?

They were. The Giant said as much. But before that happened there was much speculation as to exactly what they would be, and in what context.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Riftwolf]

Say what, now?

#938, Elan says he thinks stories are fun, but not worth hurting people for, and his father doesn't get that. What I took from that is Elan no longer thinks the rules of drama should be necessarily followed at the expense of other people; stories aren't as important as lives.

Why would V tell the IFCC? Or why would the IFCC spy on V only?

They've been shown spying on V, watching for the right moment to yank them. Even if they only Teevo the downtimes (when yanking V wouldn't further their cause), they could pick up a lot of info about the Gates/Rifts/Snarl.
(I was going to argue that they could only scry on V due to their meeting, but Qarr figures out they've been snooping on the Order for enough time to come up with their ridiculous alternative.)

[Riftwolf]

They were. The Giant said as much. But before that happened there was much speculation as to exactly what they would be, and in what context.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I've also seen people arguing that 'I-I must succeed' doesn't count as four words. This was in a thread trying to claim the Oracle had no prophecies come true (I think it was trying to argue that Belkar c/wouldn't die?).

[Schroeswald]

I've also seen people arguing that 'I-I must succeed' doesn't count as four words. This was in a thread trying to claim the Oracle had no prophecies come true (I think it was trying to argue that Belkar c/wouldn't die?).

When were they trying to say that? Because I don’t think that we have a single known prophecy that hasn’t proved true besides the Belkar dying one.

[Quebbster]

I've also seen people arguing that 'I-I must succeed' doesn't count as four words. This was in a thread trying to claim the Oracle had no prophecies come true (I think it was trying to argue that Belkar c/wouldn't die?).

Yeah, that was the one I was refering to.

[Dion]

I've also seen people arguing that 'I-I must succeed' doesn't count as four words. This was in a thread trying to claim the Oracle had no prophecies come true (I think it was trying to argue that Belkar c/wouldn't die?).

I don’t remember that thread! I would have loved to participate. (Or maybe not. Every one of the oracles prophecies have technically come true, including this one. I doubt I’d want to participate in a thread that argued otherwise)..

Of course, it’s fun to imagine the millions of ways the prophecy could have come true, and the million billion of different choices and paths V could have taken to get there. But it’s silly to claim V didn’t get there.

(I personally believe The Oracle doesn’t know the outcome, but instead only knows true statements about the outcome. But that’s a distinction that is far too fine to argue on a comic boards, and at least one person made a convincing argument that I was wrong regardless.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Why would V tell the IFCC? Or why would the IFCC spy on V only?

Two words: Fiendish Teevo.

[Schroeswald]

I don’t remember that thread! I would have loved to participate. (Or maybe not. Every one of the oracles prophecies have technically come true, including this one. I doubt I’d want to participate in a thread that argued otherwise)..

Of course, it’s fun to imagine the millions of ways the prophecy could have come true, and the million billion of different choices and paths V could have taken to get there. But it’s silly to claim V didn’t get there.

(I personally believe The Oracle doesn’t know the outcome, but instead only knows true statements about the outcome. But that’s a distinction that is far too fine to argue on a comic boards, and at least one person made a convincing argument that I was wrong regardless.)

I think that the Oracle can see the future to an extent, he looks for the answers to questions and sees the most likely thing that will happen, and then he figures out how to word it so that it is most likely to stay true.

So he was just being a jerk to Roy and Durkon the first time around. In the prophecy for Haley he discovered that she’d regain the ability to speak by telling Elan she loved him, and the most likely time that would happen would be on the date with Nale, so he ensured she would go on that date. If he had told Durkon “as a vampire” he might avoid vampires voiding the prophecy, so he said posthumously. He figured out where Team Evil would be more likely to go to first so he said Girard’s Gate. If he said “by making a deal with three arch fiends” to V, I don’t know, maybe he was trying to stop familicide by making her less likely to take that deal. He could tell Belkar would kill him but worded it to make him more likely to kill someone else. For Elan, he could only tell for sure that he would get a happy ending, he knew Belkar wouldn’t so he worded it correctly to include those likelihoods. When he realized Belkar would kill him he saw him die, and then gave the prophecy to influence Roy to make the prophecy more likely..

[Fyraltari]

I'm going to hazard a guess that what they meant was that Tarquin has taught Elan that stories won't always have a perfect resolution (such as him acknowledging that his family is broken and will never be fixed). That doesn't equate to no longer believing in stories, but it's like accepting that not all stories have a happy ending.

#938, Elan says he thinks stories are fun, but not worth hurting people for, and his father doesn't get that. What I took from that is Elan no longer thinks the rules of drama should be necessarily followed at the expense of other people; stories aren't as important as lives.

I see, that is way less radical that I read from your post. However, it isn’t meeting Tarquin that taught him that. It was Therkla’s death. That’s why he comes clean about the whole business to Haley rather to obey bardic tradition’s demand of miscommunication-caused shenanigans down the line.

They do seem ready to pull Vaarsuvius away at any moment using their contractual ownership of some of the wizard's time. That doesn't mean they can't be spying on the rest as well but it does make Vaarsuvius a more likely target of their gaze.

They've been shown spying on V, watching for the right moment to yank them. Even if they only Teevo the downtimes (when yanking V wouldn't further their cause), they could pick up a lot of info about the Gates/Rifts/Snarl.
(I was going to argue that they could only scry on V due to their meeting, but Qarr figures out they've been snooping on the Order for enough time to come up with their ridiculous alternative.)[/QUOTE]
The working hypothesis ought to be that they are spying on everyone involved with the Gates. Not 24/7 of course, they have other duties, but as much as they can afford to. Which is a lot considering the stakes at play here.
We know they don’t need to have made a pact with anyone to Scry on them because :
1) as you said they knew of V before meeting him.
2) they sent Sabine to Nale who never seemed aware of their existence as both of his fiendish teammates endeavoured to keep him in the dark when they contacted the Directors

And the heroes know they can since Sabine told 2) to Haley and the Directors claimed to have been keeping tabs on Durkon’s scrolls. That was a lie, but it doesn’t take V’s INT score to realize that the only way they knew that Durkon existed is them Scrying on the Fleet before meeting V.

Point taken. I omit the "just fine" part.
Still, they can use it. So since beeing a force ghost is apparently some sort of an application of the force it stands to reason that Sith can do it too, unless explicitly statet otherwise in the lore.



Cool. So I'm not beeing ignorant and unfamiliar with the lore - I'm just ahed of my times

And then all of Palp’s scenes in IX will turn out to be set in the past.

In all seriousness, the Force is portrayed as enlightenment superpowers which is fine and dandy until until you need villains who can take the heroes one-on-one so you end up implying that the philosophy of the bad guys are as valid as the good guys’ and make a hole in your own cosmology.

Many Star Wars Expanded Universe materials end up stating that some abilities (e.g. Force Lightning) are only accessible through the Dark Side and others (e.g. Force Healing) are only accessible through the Light. Then again just as many have stated that all Force abilities are accessible to all force-wielders and that Light/Dark is not a question of ‘what you use’ but of ‘what you use it for’ (the classic example being Force Improvised Defibrilator).

I don’t know what the current canon is on this but since Rebels showed some Sith Sorecery I wouldn’t be surprised if Force Haunting was a Light Side power. Remember, the Dark Side is a pathway to many abilities some would call... unnatural *dramatic headturn*, abilities that one can learn, but... not from a Jedi *dramatic headturn*

I like to contrast Force Haunting to the power Darth Plagueis sought. While Force Haunting seems to mostly consist of accepting that your time is over and guiding your successors as much as you can, Plagueis wanted not only to defeat death but become its master. Continuing to exist in his own forevermore preserved body and keeping others from dying as well. That last one seems weirdly sympathetic coming from a Sith Lord, until you think of the kind of relation that would be. Plagueis would held power of life and death over them and that sword of Damocles would turn them from loved ones to prized possessions. Which is how Sith philosophy defines love anyhow. Plagueis wasn’t aiming for mere immortality but baseline godhood.
Force Haunting is humble and selfless while Plagueis’ Prize is arrogant and selfish. The Light and Dark Sides of the Force in a nutshell.

[Dion]

I think that the Oracle can see the future to an extent, he looks for the answers to questions and sees the most likely thing that will happen, and then he figures out how to word it so that it is most likely to stay true.

*shrug* and I believe the opposite. Magic tells the Oracle the words about the future are most likely to stay true. From that, he can try to guess what might happen.

Edit: I’ve read at least one fact-based counter argument against my position that was actually based on the comic. So my position is possibly wrong.

[Fyraltari]

I don’t remember that thread! I would have loved to participate. (Or maybe not. Every one of the oracles prophecies have technically come true, including this one. I doubt I’d want to participate in a thread that argued otherwise)..

Belkar ain’t dead yet, Elan hasn’t had his happy ending and the Oracle wasn’t mauled to death by an angry Druid yet, though.

I think that the Oracle can see the future to an extent, he looks for the answers to questions and sees the most likely thing that will happen, and then he figures out how to word it so that it is most likely to stay true.

So he was just being a jerk to Roy and Durkon the first time around. In the prophecy for Haley he discovered that she’d regain the ability to speak by telling Elan she loved him, and the most likely time that would happen would be on the date with Nale, so he ensured she would go on that date. If he had told Durkon “as a vampire” he might avoid vampires voiding the prophecy, so he said posthumously. He figured out where Team Evil would be more likely to go to first so he said Girard’s Gate. If he said “by making a deal with three arch fiends” to V, I don’t know, maybe he was trying to stop familicide by making her less likely to take that deal. He could tell Belkar would kill him but worded it to make him more likely to kill someone else. For Elan, he could only tell for sure that he would get a happy ending, he knew Belkar wouldn’t so he worded it correctly to include those likelihoods. When he realized Belkar would kill him he saw him die, and then gave the prophecy to influence Roy to make the prophecy more likely..

I see no reason why it wouldn’t be as simple as ‘The Oracle’ knows what is going to happen. Period, no if, no but.
I mean he can read the books before they are published, of course he knows what the Order is going to go through!

[Dion]

I see no reason why it wouldn’t be as simple as ‘The Oracle’ knows what is going to happen. Period, no if, no but!

Because in my mind, that’s the complicated answer? It seems a lot simpler to me to say that magic allows him to know true statements about the future.

I mean, look at all the fiendishly complex planning and scheming Schroeswald is attributing to the Oracle to make his answers true. Maybe that’s happening. Maybe the Oracle is playing 11th dimensional chess with the future. But I think he’s probably just a dumbass who lucked into the magic ability to say things that are true.

[Peelee]

If he had told Durkon “as a vampire” he might avoid vampires voiding the prophecy, so he said posthumously.

I'm pretty sure that, so far as Durkon knew, he was avoiding vampires.

[Fyraltari]

Because in my mind, that’s the complicated answer? It seems a lot simpler to me to say that magic allows him to know true statements about the future.

I mean, look at all the fiendishly complex planning and scheming Schroeswald is attributing to the Oracle to make his answers true. Maybe that’s happening. Maybe the Oracle is playing 11th dimensional chess with the future. But I think he’s probably just a dumbass who lucked into the magic ability to say things that are true.

Or maybe he just knows what's going to happen and is making money out of saying it since it's always going to happen anyway, no need for planning and no need for him to have reality-warping powers.

[Dion]

Or maybe he just knows what's going to happen and is making money out of saying it since it's always going to happen anyway, no need for planning and no need for him to have reality-warping powers.

Yeah, probably true. I don’t think it’s something that deserves nearly the amount of analysis I’m giving it.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm pretty sure that, so far as Durkon knew, he was avoiding vampires.

I wonder...if Durkon had been given a book on herpetology, would he have been more likely to be wary of Malack?

[Goblin_Priest]

You mean something like Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith?

What is this splatbook?

[Squire Doodad]

What is this splatbook?

I thought it'd be straight forward. It's a book for when you want to make something go "splat", but don't want to feel guilty about it.

Unless you've actually read it of course, and are not just splatting it because the name sounds inane.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That’s an excellent way to foil the vampires’ plans! I’m hoping that the vampires will be dealt with swiftly so the vote can be taken ASAP and not leave the fate of the world a big question mark as the Order moves on.

I have never read something so anti-climatic that is so awesome at the same time since Sandman's "showdown" with Lucifer in Season's of Mist.

That does have to be one of my favorite stories of all time. Seasons of Mist might be my favorite Sandman arc.

Motion... Tabled.

I’ll admit, I actually laughed at this one.

There's a heck of a lot of overlap there, yeah. I watch all of those except Cinefix and Engineer Guy. Though I've apparently worked harder to collect random educational YouTube channels, since I also watch (and recommend) City Beautiful, History with Hilbert, Knowing Better, Knowledge Hub, Mathologer, Practical Engineer, Rare Earth, the aforementioned ReligionForBreakfast, Soliloquy, Step Back History, TREY the Explainer, and Your Dinosaurs are Wrong. (Also a bunch of others that could arguably fit in the educational category, but arguably wouldn't.)

Well, I know several of these folks that you and Grey Wolf mentioned, but several of them I have not heard of and will probably try to check out (once I find myself some free time, that is).