OOTS #1173 - The Discussion Thread

[Snails]

OTOH, the rule explicitly states "unbroken". Something which has been broken, even if subsequently fixed, could possibly still not count as "unbroken" if you define it as "never broken" rather than "not currently broken" ;)

You. Are. Good.

[Windscion]

Lawful Stupid subverted for the win.
:satisfaction:

[woweedd]

Lawful Good represent! Despite being Neutral Good, hopefully, myself, I have deep respect for you guys, and this is why.

[D.One]

• The vampire is going to attack and kill Sigdi
• Sigdi will not be raised

are my predictions.

Infidel! How can you doubt Sidgi's Might!?

She will bite the vampire and de-vampirize him!

[Anarion]

The facial expressions in that last panel are just perfect!

[h0m3st4r]

Okay. I did NOT see that coming. Well played, Rich.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Lawful Good represent! Despite being Neutral Good, hopefully, myself, I have deep respect for you guys, and this is why.

I don't think Good had anything to do with it. I think this is all on the Lawful side, and thus this is a victory for Lawful Neutral types.

Grey Wolf

[HalfTangible]

Thing is, what does this solve? Are we assuming that the vampires have a literal one-vote (e.g., 8-7) majority and the reversal of that vote after the vamps are dust will save the planet (rather than, say 9-7 which would lead to a further tie)?



Yeah, but Make whole is a second-level cleric spell. Even the assistant overnight caretaker acolytes could probably cast it.

Two things here.

-If the vote is 8-7, then switching one vote over will lead to a 7-8 vote. I count 16 clan heads, with 7 casting 'yes' vote; I assume two others voted and just weren't shown in the comic. If it's 9-7, then it becomes a tie, and I assume in the case of a tie Dvalin gets to cast his vote how he pleases.
-You're assuming that the clans cannot change their vote once cast. And even if they couldn't normally, I imagine they can when it's clear there was vampiric influence on the council's vote. And it's unlikely that the vampire will be able to act with impunity on this second vote. All they need to do to get rid of the domination is walk out through the orange barrier and then back in.

[Lexible]

• Durkon remains stoned until the meeting is concluded, which will be a very long time
• The vampire is going to attack and kill Sigdi
• Sigdi will not be raised

are my predictions.

• Durkon will be restored in short order
• The vampire is going to attack Sigdi, just as she intending by goading him, and will end up stone
• Toasts will be raised to Sigdi and Durkon by their family and friends.

[Snails]

Dwarves are nominally 4 feet tall.

The table looks like it is roughly two dwarf height in radius (~8 ft)
The table thickness is roughly 1/6th of a dwarf height (~2/3 ft.)

pi * (8^2) * 2/3 = ~134 cubic feet

So Durkon is probably high enough level, but anyone who cannot cast a 7th level spells is not good enough to Make Whole this thing.

[Thecommander236]

So the godsmoot is rendered moot? Can't someone just cast a spell to fix the table?

[SlashDash]

Honestly, I didn't like the nick of time things. Sure, the expected return hammer was given.

But honestly, why would the dominated council members just blurt out "YES" all at once.
Yeah, I get it's for the dramatic effect. But still...

Either way, I'm assuming a quick combat to finish off the vampires and then a re-vote?

We're at the end of the book obviously, so either there's going to be a time jump or the council members will just change the rules or something (or maybe they have a spare table)



Still betting on one of the vampires surviving and being sent by Hel to Xykon to speed things up and scare the other gods.

Also, Durkon knows how to hit rock just right to break perfectly.
Wood is a entirely different matter.
Especially if all you have is a hammer.

If anything, I'm expecting Durkon to know how to hit trees...

However, I just assumed that since the table is surrounded by council members, Durkon didn't want to accidentally hit any of them.

• Durkon remains stoned until the meeting is concluded, which will be a very long time
• The vampire is going to attack and kill Sigdi
• Sigdi will not be raised

are my predictions.

Durkon remains stoned until the meeting is over.

So if he is stone, the Exarch can't attack Sigdi (and vice versa)

[chy03001]

Wait...

Was there a previous strip where that rules page was visible?

If so I would love to take a look to confirm the plot crumbs were there.

Thanks,
Cheng

[HalfTangible]

So the godsmoot is rendered moot? Can't someone just cast a spell to fix the table?

The godsmoot is still adjourned until this vote is done.

They stopped the vote at the last possible second, delaying it long enough to get the vampires out of the room.

[gatemansgc]

Okay. I did NOT see that coming. Well played, Rich.

did anyone? who would have expected a ROCK BREAKING A TABLE to stop the meeting? LOL

[Snails]

But honestly, why would the dominated council members just blurt out "YES" all at once.
Yeah, I get it's for the dramatic effect. But still...

Because the head of the council could honestly say he was confused about the count, and close votes are done one by one as per precedent from 11 centuries ago.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

why would the dominated council members just blurt out "YES" all at once.
Yeah, I get it's for the dramatic effect. But still...

Because a cacophony of "yes" and "no" doesn't make for easy counting of how many said which.

So I'm guessing the rules call for only one vote performed per round, to ensure they are all accounted for. What'd be the rush?

Grey Wolf

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

-If the vote is 8-7, then switching one vote over will lead to a 7-8 vote. I count 16 clan heads, with 7 casting 'yes' vote; I assume two others voted and just weren't shown in the comic. If it's 9-7, then it becomes a tie, and I assume in the case of a tie Dvalin gets to cast his vote how he pleases.

It's 15, assuming Dvalin's cleric does not vote.

Couting only what we've seen on panel, the vote before the table broke was at 6-2. So yes, someone must have voted and it was not shown, because Ironthumb couldn't be the last by this count.

[Zumbs]

You tell him Sigdi! That's how its done!

Am I the only one hearing the echo of a Wisdom save? Or seeing the expression of a failed one? So the vampire will attack Sigdi and turn to stone?

So the godsmoot is rendered moot? Can't someone just cast a spell to fix the table?

I'm not sure if "fixed by spell" qualifies as unbroken?

[HalfTangible]

It's 15, assuming Dvalin's cleric does not vote.

Couting only what we've seen on panel, the vote before the table broke was at 6-2. So yes, someone must have voted and it was not shown, because Ironthumb couldn't be the last by this count.

I didn't count Dvalin's cleric. I just counted the same person twice; once as a voice-over and once as a person on-screen.

MB.

[Snails]

The godsmoot is still adjourned until this vote is done.

I would assume that Dvalin could now honestly report that he cannot enter a vote within a reasonable amount of time frame, as repairing the table could take many months, so he abstains. Thus the godsmoot vote is complete on the matter on hand with a tie, and the godsmoot can be adjourned, and everyone can go home.

Or race to the final Gate.

[Ornithologist]

I'm not sure if "fixed by spell" qualifies as unbroken?

I think that will entirely depend on whether or not the council wants to stall the vampires for longer or not. Though until this chunk of arc, I have been reasonably confident that legal tom-foolery would not be a big part of the climax of the book. Shows what I know.

[understatement]

Huh, that did come a little out of nowhere. The last panel is great, though.

Crack theory: does this table count as the "third ring" Durkon was going on about back in this strip?

[Forikroder]

I would assume that Dvalin could now honestly report that he cannot enter a vote within a reasonable amount of time frame, as repairing the table could take many months, so he abstains. Thus the godsmoot vote is complete on the matter on hand with a tie, and the godsmoot can be adjourned, and everyone can go home.

Or race north.

it cant be a tie, dvalin needs to break the tie so the tie is broken to break the tie to decide if the world goes boom or not

he might decide that he made a good solid effort in polling the council and since they cant come to a conclusion decide how to vote on his own

[Psyren]

I should say: I'm impressed so many of the councilmembers knew about section 1.3, paragraph 2. These guys might be more into this council business than I was giving them credit.

Grey Wolf

I'm guessing you wouldn't even be chosen for a body like that without having a love of arcane rules and minutiae - along the lines of a senate or high court.

Yeah, but Make whole is a second-level cleric spell. Even the assistant overnight caretaker acolytes could probably cast it.

1) As others have mentioned, by the strictest definition of "unbroken", fixing the table (by whatever means) would not qualify.

2) Even if it did, who would cast it? Hel was two clerics in attendance, neither of whom would have thought to prepare it, and all the other clerics nearby are against destroying the world.

[Forikroder]

I'm guessing you wouldn't even be chosen for a body like that without having a love of arcane rules and minutiae - along the lines of a senate or high court.



1) As others have mentioned, by the strictest definition of "unbroken", fixing the table (by whatever means) would not qualify.

2) Even if it did, who would cast it? Hel was two clerics in attendance, neither of whom would have thought to prepare it, and all the other clerics nearby are against destroying the world.

they dont need to fix it immediately, finish off the vampires fix the domination and get the vote over with so that the gods dont destroy the world and they have time to fix it properly

forcing the tie to remain perpetually raises the risk of either A) the high priests stuck in the godsmoot dieing of boring vetoing there gods vote or B) the gods getting tired of waiting and just ending the world

[Snails]

it cant be a tie, dvalin needs to break the tie so the tie is broken to break the tie to decide if the world goes boom or not

he might decide that he made a good solid effort in polling the council and since they cant come to a conclusion decide how to vote on his own

Usually a vote that ends in a tie is not a measure that has passed. So I still say the godsmoot can adjourn on a tie. It is a result.

But, you are correct that Dvalin has fulfilled the requirements of his oath, and the council cannot give him advice based on a properly tallied vote at this time. Presumably he would feel a greater degree of latitude to vote his conscience now.

[Quebbster]

It's also worth noting that the Council gets to decide the security measures for the chamber. I assume something that stops dwarf vampire domination will be added soon.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Hmmm... Make Whole...

Target: One object of up to 10 cu. ft./ level

That table could easily be too big for any dwarf cleric available, except Durkon and Hilgya.

Time to break out the Math!
We don't seem to have any panels where part of the table isn't out of frame; the best we have are ones like the third panel of 1168. In that panel, the dwarves are 90-100 pixels tall, while the table is 15-20 pixels thick (it isn't a perfect cylinder) and more than 330 pixels wide.
Hill dwarves average 4 feet tall; let's therefore say that 95 pixels correspond to four feet. This means that the table is between 0.632 and 0.842 feet thick and has a diameter somewhere around 14 feet. A perfect cylinder precisely eight inches thick, with a radius of seven feet, in a vacuum, would have a volume of (0.75*(π*7*7)) = 147π/4 = ~115.5 cubic feet. This would require a 12th-level cleric to make whole; they are hardly unheard of, but you'd only have a few per metropolis (according to the DMG rules).

Spoiler: Plotty stuff

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If the protections are still on, he can't really attack her (or maybe he will, and get stoned).

It looks like most of the dominated dwarves were un-dominated, a detail which would be narratively unneeded if the vampire was just going to remove itself from play next comic. It also weakens a potential joke where the dominated dwarves snap out of it and wonder why a statue is attacking Sigdi, or something to that effect.

Doesn't Elan have mending? I bet they defeat the vampires and then simply mend the table so the council can resume.

It would be kinda funny if Elan cast mending a bit too early, but that would ruin the arc conclusion's pacing (and Elan is no longer tha man-child who sang "Bluff, bluff, bluff, bluff the stupid ogre!"), so it won't happen.

That seems like a bit of a continuity error, given the whole "I do 4 Sendings with her every week"

Sigdi isn't the high priest of Thor. Also, sending is only 25 words each way; I count 180 words in that letter, which would require about seven more sendings than a High Priests would be expected to listen to from a lowly wandering priest for anything short of an emergency.

Plausibly, misdirection. Made the vampire think Durkon's plan was to kill the vampire with daylight, so they didn't do anything to stop the hammer. An attack directly on the table might have been blocked.

Grey Wolf

By the people standing all around the table, if nothing else. And lobbing it in an arc gentle enough to hit the table before the ceiling probably wouldn't carry enough force, because putting that much kinetic energy into the hammer would lob it in an arc that hits the ceiling first. Physics!

Two things here.

-If the vote is 8-7, then switching one vote over will lead to a 7-8 vote. I count 16 clan heads, with 7 casting 'yes' vote; I assume two others voted and just weren't shown in the comic. If it's 9-7, then it becomes a tie, and I assume in the case of a tie Dvalin gets to cast his vote how he pleases.
-You're assuming that the clans cannot change their vote once cast. And even if they couldn't normally, I imagine they can when it's clear there was vampiric influence on the council's vote. And it's unlikely that the vampire will be able to act with impunity on this second vote. All they need to do to get rid of the domination is walk out through the orange barrier and then back in.

Unspoken assumption: That suspending the session doesn't end the vote and shove the subject being voted on down the line.

it cant be a tie, dvalin needs to break the tie so the tie is broken to break the tie to decide if the world goes boom or not

It could absolutely be a tie. Everyone has a big laugh about tiebreaker procedures and the Order goes to fight Xykon while the dwarven clan council gathers the hill dwarf representatives or whatever their tiebreaker is.
I don't expect that to happen, but it could.

Spoiler: Themey stuff

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.... Eh

Splitting the table kinda comes out of nowhere.

Don't get me wrong, that part did. But resolving the tension of an arc built on honor, honor codified as bureaucracy, and loopholes in general through some obscure bureaucratic loophole makes perfect sense.
I'm going to count this as one of those things I appreciate more now that I understand what my literature teacher was talking about.

Lawful Stupid subverted for the win.
:satisfaction:

More like Lawful Stupid was exploited more effectively by the good guys than the bad guys for once.

Spoiler: Jokey stuff

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I should say: I'm impressed so many of the councilmembers knew about section 1.3, paragraph 2. These guys might be more into this council business than I was giving them credit.

Grey Wolf

I wouldn't be surprised if the only reason so many of them knew that section was because they were there for the debates that ensued last time they had to replace the table.

even with the blue barrier not there, durkon is still stone in front of it so it could be a minor oversight. we'll see next comic.

If Dark Souls 2 taught me anything, that doorway is basically just a wall until someone finds a fragrant branch of yore and...I'm not actually sure how those work, do you wave it under their nose like smelling salts?

If anything, I'm expecting Durkon to know how to hit trees...

He knows how to kill trees. But that doesn't mean he knows how to break things made out of tree corpses, any more than a soldier knows how to break a door made out of human body parts. (Though I imagine they'd be able to figure out "without touching it".)

Spoiler: Other stuff

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That's so they taste delightful once you've covered them with clotted cream (and jam, if that floats your boat).

I'm sure clotted cream tastes better than it sounds, but eurgh does it sound disgusting.

[Peelee]

Usually a vote that ends in a tie is not a measure that has passed. So I still say the godsmoot can adjourn on a tie. It is a result.

If a tie was an acceptable result, I doubt the main gods would poll the demigods to begin with.