OOTS #1173 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm guessing you wouldn't even be chosen for a body like that without having a love of arcane rules and minutiae - along the lines of a senate or high court.

But they aren't chosen. They just happen to be the guys in charge of the 15 richest/most powerful clans. A look at the kind of person that can end up in charge of powerful family ruling dynasties should tell you that it does NOT ensure the person will love arcane rules and minutiae. Heck, the dwarven council is doing well to not have a guy who poops purple.

Grey Wolf

[kivzirrum]

If a Sending is like a phone call, then I can see a formal letter for the high priest. One does not simply dial up the Space Pope, after all.

I think the continuity error is more in the part where Durkon says that he suspects his mother wonders what happened to him after his abrupt departure. Since if he talks with her all the time, he would presumably have explained it by now. I may be misunderstanding either the comic or their point, though!

[Dagny]

Does this mean Durkon is stuck as a statue until they get a new table, resume the suspended meeting, and formally adjourn it? Unless Stone to Flesh works on obscure conditional petrification magic like this, which I guess it might.

[woweedd]

I don't think Good had anything to do with it. I think this is all on the Lawful side, and thus this is a victory for Lawful Neutral types.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, but they're the reason we're in this mess, and more to the point, screw them, all walking around, sounding like satirical British cartoon characters...

[Forikroder]

I think the continuity error is more in the part where Durkon says that he suspects his mother wonders what happened to him after his abrupt departure. Since if he talks with her all the time, he would presumably have explained it by now. I may be misunderstanding either the comic or their point, though!

would be hard to explain with only 25 words a week, he might have just used it purely for status reports without trying to explain everything

[King of Nowhere]

wouldn't it have been simpler to just shatter the table in the first place then?

[Psyren]

they dont need to fix it immediately, finish off the vampires fix the domination and get the vote over with so that the gods dont destroy the world and they have time to fix it properly

forcing the tie to remain perpetually raises the risk of either A) the high priests stuck in the godsmoot dieing of boring vetoing there gods vote or B) the gods getting tired of waiting and just ending the world

1) If Dvalin doesn't vote at all, it stays where it is now, a tie. Not sure what the moot's rules say then, since the rule was to bring in the lesser deities if there was a tie among the greater. But I'm guessing that neither a stalemate nor a re-vote would end in Hel's favor.

2) Hel's plan hinged on its speed - i.e. ending the world before the dwarves could realize they were doomed. Remove that surprise from the equation and now they have time to plan out honorable deaths for themselves - say, by storming the location of the final Gate (conveniently located near their homeland) en masse. If they win, the world is saved, if they lose, their souls are saved from Hel, meaning they still win. It might not be enough to save all of them, but probably would save enough of them that Hel wouldn't be able to wrest control of the worldbuilding from Odin.

[Thecommander236]

Thing is, what does this solve? Are we assuming that the vampires have a literal one-vote (e.g., 8-7) majority and the reversal of that vote after the vamps are dust will save the planet (rather than, say 9-7 which would lead to a further tie)?



Yeah, but Make whole is a second-level cleric spell. Even the assistant overnight caretaker acolytes could probably cast it.

Do you really think vampires would've prepared that spell of all things the day before a battle? And the table WAS broken. The rules don't say anything about a repaired broken table being sufficient, just that the table could not have ever been broken.

[woweedd]

wouldn't it have been simpler to just shatter the table in the first place then?

Yes, but could he get close enough to do that without the Vamps stopping him? Misdirection, my friend.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

wouldn't it have been simpler to just shatter the table in the first place then?

Not if Durkon didn't think he could manage it in a single swing - and all he would get is a single swing. That's a big table, breaking it by dropping rocks is probably a more likely to succeed scenario than throwing a hammer at its side.

Grey Wolf

[kivzirrum]

would be hard to explain with only 25 words a week, he might have just used it purely for status reports without trying to explain everything

Fair enough, though it was 4 Sendings a week--not that 100 words is all that much for explaining things either, but after a few decades of being gone I'm sure at some point an explanation of why he was gone would have come up, no?

I'm not much concerned with minor continuity errors or things like that, personally, I'm just saying, I think that's what GregTD was saying earlier.

[Psyren]

But they aren't chosen. They just happen to be the guys in charge of the 15 richest/most powerful clans. A look at the kind of person that can end up in charge of powerful family ruling dynasties should tell you that it does NOT ensure the person will love arcane rules and minutiae. Heck, the dwarven council is doing well to not have a guy who poops purple.

Grey Wolf

Point, but these are Dwarven clans we're talking about. The only creatures that tend more towards law in OotSland are probably Outsiders. So even if a devotion to law isn't a requirement, it probably correlates among the clan leaders far more often than not. I'm betting the irritable grandma who'd rather do anything but participate in the vote is an outlier, and the fact that her daughter is chiding her over it suggests as much.

[Forikroder]

1) If Dvalin doesn't vote at all, it stays where it is now, a tie. Not sure what the moot's rules say then, since the rule was to bring in the lesser deities if there was a tie among the greater. But I'm guessing that neither a stalemate nor a re-vote would end in Hel's favor.

2) Hel's plan hinged on its speed - i.e. ending the world before the dwarves could realize they were doomed. Remove that surprise from the equation and now they have time to plan out honorable deaths for themselves - say, by storming the location of the final Gate (conveniently located near their homeland) en masse. If they win, the world is saved, if they lose, their souls are saved from Hel, meaning they still win. It might not be enough to save all of them, but probably would save enough of them that Hel wouldn't be able to wrest control of the worldbuilding from Odin.

hels plan didnt hinge on speed though, Durkula was in a hurry purely because the godsmoot wouldnt wait for him

the entire dwarf race rice killing themselves with honour was an idea Roys dad brought up but is obviously a pretty gruesome solution to the problem, the best solution is one that doesnt end with the world being destroyed at all, neither by the gods or the snarl so ensuring the vote is a solid no is best for them

[Psyren]

hels plan didnt hinge on speed though, Durkula was in a hurry purely because the godsmoot wouldnt wait for him

the entire dwarf race rice killing themselves with honour was an idea Roys dad brought up but is obviously a pretty gruesome solution to the problem, the best solution is one that doesnt end with the world being destroyed at all, neither by the gods or the snarl so ensuring the vote is a solid no is best for them

I didn't suggest mass suicide though, I suggested an assault. Big difference.

[KorvinStarmast]

Does this mean Durkon is stuck as a statue until they get a new table, resume the suspended meeting, and formally adjourn it? Unless Stone to Flesh works on obscure conditional petrification magic like this, which I guess it might.

I'll guess that the latter will work, but that's a guess.

Things I noted that I enjoyed, beyond Gontor being out-rules-lawyered.

In panel 2, one of the elders notices Gontor and says: "There's two of them?"

Support for Sigdi's point in the last panenl is a reach back to this:
Nuh uh. The rules say ye haf ta make a Raincloud 'fore ye can roll a Thunderclap
It was bolded in the strip.


Reach back to this strip about seeing the sky for the first time.

[woweedd]

Not if Durkon didn't think he could manage it in a single swing - and all he would get is a single swing. That's a big table, breaking it by dropping rocks is probably a more likely to succeed scenario than throwing a hammer at its side.

Grey Wolf

This too, yes.

[Forikroder]

I didn't suggest mass suicide though, I suggested an assault. Big difference.

no its not, its just suicide with extra steps

[Ruck]

If a tie was an acceptable result, I doubt the main gods would poll the demigods to begin with.

More likely, as Snails suggested, we get something like Dvalin returning to the Godsmoot and saying "I consulted the Council of Clans, as per my oath, but they couldn't hold a vote. So I'm voting my own conscience, which is telling me 'no, do not condemn the Dwarves to Hel.'"

[Reboot]

1) As others have mentioned, by the strictest definition of "unbroken", fixing the table (by whatever means) would not qualify.

Actually, that was also me :p

[Cazero]

I was so close, predicting an obscure loophole of a sensible regulation. So close !

[WindStruck]

Wee, awesome comic! And to Rich or any editor:

Not to be a downer, but the correct grammar is "Mistress's". I know it might look weird, but that is how it is for a single mistress (I assume that being Hel). Unless there are more than one he is referring to?

edit: well in that case for multiple mistresses, it would be " Mistresses' ".

Oooor I guess keep it how it is for stylistic purposes.

[Kantaki]

More likely, as Snails suggested, we get something like Dvalin returning to the Godsmoot and saying "I consulted the Council of Clans, as per my oath, but they couldn't hold a vote. So I'm voting my own conscience, which is telling me 'no, do not condemn the Dwarves to Hel.'"

Nah. If the Council ties it gotta have a tiebreaker.
It's tiebreakers all the way down.

[Ruck]

Nah. If the Council ties it gotta have a tiebreaker.
It's tiebreakers all the way down.

The Council didn't tie, they suspended the vote.

[b_jonas]

Not if Durkon didn't think he could manage it in a single swing - and all he would get is a single swing. That's a big table, breaking it by dropping rocks is probably a more likely to succeed scenario than throwing a hammer at its side.

Agreed. On the plus side, Sigdi bought a whole armed mob of dwarves, and they're coming towards the council room. If each of them takes just one swing at a vampire, then it's quite likely that all three or four vampires will die. I'm feeling good about my bet.

[Giggling Ghast]

Yeah, but Make whole is a second-level cleric spell. Even the assistant overnight caretaker acolytes could probably cast it.

Who the heck prepares Make Whole?

[Resileaf]

In the first panel of the second page, curly-haired vampire has already misted to flee. She realized way before Gonthor what was happening.

[Hekko]

Fair enough, though it was 4 Sendings a week--not that 100 words is all that much for explaining things either, but after a few decades of being gone I'm sure at some point an explanation of why he was gone would have come up, no?

I'm not much concerned with minor continuity errors or things like that, personally, I'm just saying, I think that's what GregTD was saying earlier.

I'd even expect Durkon to Send to her more when he first learnt to. The weekly conversation is a routine thing. The first time you can talk to your mother after not seeing her for a long period of time? He probably Sent as much as he could, so they had opportunity to cover the basics.

Another disharmony here is that Durkon writes that he would like to see his grandfather, who (per the High Priestess' answer that MitD ate) died "last year". Sigdi never mentioned that?

[Fyraltari]

So does that mean that Thor controls everything that falls from sufficiently high in the North, or just that hammer?

Also could somebody be kind enough o tell me what "pursuant" means?

Not exactly what I expected, but "obscure rule the Ex-Exarch overlooked" does make sense-- as Sigdi says, nobody is going to be more prepared for a battle of the rules than Durkon. (I guess collapsing the ceiling to let the sunlight in probably would have killed too many people.)

The hammer appears to have landed next to Durkon, for those speculating on how that might work from #1172.

Now, uh, does Durkon get free while the meeting is suspended?

The meeting is "temporarily suspended", not "formally adjourned", so I guess not.

On an unrelated detail, I remember it was questioned about the council not having drinks and snacks for during the debates and all. Well, if you read the last paragraph shown in section 1.3, it says: "Following the completion of duties, the Council shall ... (something something) ... snacks and other light refreshments, as well ... (something something) ... quantities of beer sufficient ... (something something) ... scones. big... (or scores, I don't know what a scone is)

It is the thing and the whole of the thing. Scones and stones and dwarves, are we really suuuuuuuuuuuure the Giant doesn't read Pratchett?

Thing is, what does this solve? Are we assuming that the vampires have a literal one-vote (e.g., 8-7) majority and the reversal of that vote after the vamps are dust will save the planet (rather than, say 9-7 which would lead to a further tie)?

We're not assuming, we know it.

A) Why didn't Durkon just break the table directly? Hanging around Elan too much?
B) Make whole.

"We still gotta chance left" = We hoped this would kill the vampires, but not to worry, Plan B is on.

Wait...

Was there a previous strip where that rules page was visible?

If so I would love to take a look to confirm the plot crumbs were there.

Thanks,
Cheng

Nope.

[spoiler=Plotty stuff]It looks like most of the dominated dwarves were un-dominated, a detail which would be narratively unneeded if the vampire was just going to remove itself from play next comic. It also weakens a potential joke where the dominated dwarves snap out of it and wonder why a statue is attacking Sigdi, or something to that effect.

No, the dwarves are still very much Dominated, Dvalin's channelling alone stopped.
Also, the Dominated are still aware of their surroundings and remember it clearly as evidenced by "HE HAD TO ORDER YOU NOT TO DRINK IT ALL!"

[Forikroder]

I'd even expect Durkon to Send to her more when he first learnt to. The weekly conversation is a routine thing. The first time you can talk to your mother after not seeing her for a long period of time? He probably Sent as much as he could, so they had opportunity to cover the basics.

Another disharmony here is that Durkon writes that he would like to see his grandfather, who (per the High Priestess' answer that MitD ate) died "last year". Sigdi never mentioned that?

if expect him to send less, less spell slots means using one to talk to his mother is a large chunk of resources, the higher level he gets the less valuable those low level spell slots even are so having more sendings taking them up becomes a non issue since he can always convert them into healing

sigdi knows he cant come back home so maybe didnt bother filling him in on the really heavy stuff

[Davian]

Heh, I sort of expected the vote to be invalidated on some kind of legal technicality, but I had absolutely no idea what it could possibly have been.

Now... Absolutely not a prediction, and no idea if it's been mentioned before, but... If the whole vote business were to be fully resolved, that would free up all of those clerics back at the Godsmoot to again act as they see fit, including taking action against the impending threat to the world's safety. Including rallying all their subordinates in their various churches. As it stands though, they're stuck.

Narratively speaking, the current stalemate could ensure that our heroes are really the only people in a position to stop Xycon, despite numerous other powerful individuals now being aware of the situation, which keeps the dramatic stakes high.

Similar to how the Azurites and Girard's family may have been aware of what's going on, but they're (mostly) out of the picture.

But that's only one of a million ways things can play out. I'm not in the business of predictions.