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Thread: Pathfinder 2 Release
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2019-08-18, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
For the first, pretty much more spells. This may or may not be useful depending on how many spells get used per day.
For the second I see that we have been in campaigns that were at different OP levels. I had a warlock that had no alternate class features and only the invocations in Complete Arcane to choose from, and my dm was tearing his hair out. I agreed to get rid of my chasuble of fell power so as not to overshadow the rest of the party. But it was simple and fun to play, with almost no paperwork or keeping track of things. When in doubt, zap! (Or flee the scene).
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2019-08-18, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Where do you get the idea that I argued for 6/9 being able to everything (also, just having 6 spell levels cuts out the biggest abuses)? I argued that without that buff they end up with a dysfunctional feature. So either it should be buffed or the spells shouldn't have been added in the first place. It's more honest to deny something than grant them a weak-sauce version. Personally, my view on game balance is that while a class can quite cover a lot of space (basically hammer, anvil and arm), any particular build should maybe only cover two things well enough. That gives build flexibility without pidgeon-holing everything or have the flexibility of wizard in play.
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2019-08-18, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Yeah, I was tired when I wrote it and knew that phrasing would be a point of nitpick. ;)
My larger point was that acting as if a difference of ~100 people in a sample size of 10,000 represents a 'wide margin' of anything is silly. I'd be pretty surprised if it's anything more than the margin of error. Take a different sample of 10,000 people and you're just as likely to end up with 7% Clerics, 6.9% Rogues, etc. Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard are almost always going to be the top 4 because they are straight up the archetypes for a typical D&D party and represent roles that even purely RP focused types tend to see as desirable to have covered, but I'm not really convinced there's a substantial amount of preference for Rogues over Fighters or Fighters over Wizards, so much as a preference for there being one of each of the four.
The humans thing is... meh. I look at that chart and what I see is: An overwhelming majority of people prefer to play anything BUT humans. ;)
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2019-08-18, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Um, there is nothing wrong with Casters being able to do all of those crazy things, the issue was the fact that Non-Casters weren't clocking in at similar insanity. Im not talking pure T1 (largely because playing that way is just headache-inducing) but T2 levels of gameplay, y'know, with Teleporting, Conjuring massive Outsiders, dumping a literal mountain worth of snow onto a castle. Those are things that Casters should be doing, because thats the level of fantasy we are playing at, because thats what DnD has as one of its selling points (PF too).
The problem has always been that the Barbarian can't hurl a redwood tree at the dragon, or that the Fighter isn't near unkillable because he stands under the sun, or that the Rogue isn't basically just invisible all the time. Seriously, the "mundanes" should be at Knights of the Round tier and those dudes where firmly chucking around stuff that should be in your average Shonen Anime.
If I want lower-powered fantasy, I'll just go play Savage Worlds, if I want higher-powered fantasy, I want to play DnD, because there really isn't another game in town.
This is a good point.
"Hey look guys, we gave this class Stinking Cloud!"
"But it's a Level 2..."
"Yes, you get it early."
"By one class level, and it lowers our Save DC."
"Oh look, we gave you Meteor Swarm too!"
"We'll just ignore that its not good and focus on the fact that its now a Level 6 Spell, so my DC is 3 Lower."
"But its still an option!"
"Not really, because it can't even do its mediocre damage anymore. I'll just stick with the buffs."
This is not good class design. Just don't stick those spells on the bloody listLast edited by Blackhawk748; 2019-08-18 at 08:04 PM.
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2019-08-18, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
There was something here and in the avatar box, and there will eventually be again. I just need to figure out what I want...
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2019-08-18, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Exalted: Combat is not intuitive and is very tied to its lore. It also can turn into Rock Paper Scissors. Its a fine game, but its also way beyond DnD's power level until you hit mid Epic.
Anima: Never heard of it
Godbound: Never heard of it, sounds neat though.
Fantasycraft: Never heard of it.
Mythender: Inexorably tied to its lore. Unlike DnD.
So while they disagree, they are either A) married to their lore or B) I've never heard of them, which means DnD is definitely the biggest and most well known High Powered Fantasy game
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2019-08-18, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
You're effectively looking at the popularity of other RPGs and comparing them to one of the largest intellectual properties in the world. Of course they're going to come up short if that's your metric. There are billion dollar industries with less reach than Dungeons and Dragons.
Last edited by Ilorin Lorati; 2019-08-18 at 09:03 PM.
There was something here and in the avatar box, and there will eventually be again. I just need to figure out what I want...
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2019-08-18, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-08-18, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-08-18, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
There was something here and in the avatar box, and there will eventually be again. I just need to figure out what I want...
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2019-08-19, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
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2019-08-19, 06:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Agree 100%.
Now repeating that over and over about 3E/P1 is not going to get us anywhere; but it is a valid criticism for P2 (and for that matter, 5E as well).
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2019-08-19, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
That's fair; I was primarily responding to Snowbluff's argument that partial casters' save DCs make them "dysfunctional".
Originally Posted by SnowbluffOriginally Posted by Darths & DroidsOptimization Trophies
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2019-08-19, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-08-19, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
The difference is that Wotc will never publish anything for 3.5 ever again, but could publish more stuff for 5e. Similarly, Paizo will never publish anything for P1 ever again, but will publish more stuff for P2. This there is a chance that 5e and P2 will give us martial characters with more options in the future.
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2019-08-19, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
I'll have to look at it after seeing how far resources can be stretched. However, I will still look at ranger sorcerer... I wonder if there's a way I can get some good focus powers going on...
For the second I see that we have been in campaigns that were at different OP levels. I had a warlock that had no alternate class features and only the invocations in Complete Arcane to choose from, and my dm was tearing his hair out. I agreed to get rid of my chasuble of fell power so as not to overshadow the rest of the party. But it was simple and fun to play, with almost no paperwork or keeping track of things. When in doubt, zap! (Or flee the scene).Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
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2019-08-19, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
You're the one who cares about the math, and I'm showing cleric and warpriest can have the same math so there is no difference. Someone playing a war priest wants to be a divine warrior. If a cleric player wants to do the same thing he has the same issues as war priest balancing strength, constitution, and wisdom. The math is even. Cleric has more spells, but the war priest player doesn't care. He wants the warrior bits. The spells land equally because if it's a buff or utility DC is irrelevant and if it's an attack the war priest can have the same wisdom. The cleric doesn't have better spells. War priest has the same spells as the cleric, up to level 6. Cleric does get higher level spells faster and war priest does not get the spells of level 7 to 9. It's not a question of "better" or math. It's player choice not wanting to focus as much on spellcasting. If that bothers you, it's a matter of spellcaster vs warrior not game math.
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2019-08-19, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
I don't use this wording because its hard to quantify. Is the dude who is literally unkillable when under the sun and can shoot giant fire lasers from his sword as useful as the God Wizard who doesn't have a single damaging spell?
I mean, yes the Sun Warrior is far more limited in scope, but he's really, really good at his one job, whereas the Wizard can't kill anything to save his rear-end but he makes it easier for Sun Warrior and he helps get them both around when adventuring.
So one only has influence in combat (and I think thats fine as his really good at it) while the other is helpful in combat but is more helpful outside of it. Is this fair? Is this "roughly equal"? I'm willing to bet both are certainly fun to play at the least
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2019-08-19, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Actually doing that would spark a controversy that'd make the 4E edition wars look like a polite disagreement. There's no way to do it without treading on multiple "this isn't D&D otherwise" things for multiple groups of people.
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2019-08-19, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
In this example, the Sun Warrior is a complete non-entity. He is a tool used by the Wizard, and can easily be replaced by the Moon Warrior or the Every Other Saturday Warrior; his influence on the world is negligible because all he's doing is the Wizard's dirty work. Now, if the Sun Warrior could blind enemies who look at him, render terrain impassible with laser beams from the sky, or heal with the power of the sun, then he has an impact on the world and becomes an actor in his own right instead of simply an extension of the Wizard's will.
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2019-08-19, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
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2019-08-19, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Sure. If the God Wizard doesn't exist the Sun Warrior does things, but the Sun Warrior doesn't suddenly become able to do anything other than what he's already been doing the entire time... which is to say hitting things with a giant flaming sword. The tools in his toolbox haven't changed, and if anything he's worse at using them.
To wit, there's a reason why as the story goes on, OPM focuses more on other characters; there's only so much a guy that can only punch things and be bored can do without turning him into a Mary Sue.Last edited by Ilorin Lorati; 2019-08-19 at 07:22 PM.
There was something here and in the avatar box, and there will eventually be again. I just need to figure out what I want...
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2019-08-19, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
While I like these ideas (because options are nice) how does the fact that he is stupidly good at combat make him have no agency or effect on the world? He can wipe out incredibly powerful enemies or huge chunks of armies (if not the whole thing, his powers aren't well defined). Seriously, just because he decided to go all in on combat doesn't make him the wizards attack dog. He's partnered with the mage because it makes his job easier, while the Warrior makes the Wizards job easier.
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2019-08-19, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-08-19, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Last edited by Remuko; 2019-08-20 at 08:11 AM.
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2019-08-19, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
True enough, but those armies exist in the narrative explicitly to be killed, and the list you provided plays into his, and their, respective narrative roles - aka pretty much the antithesis of having agency. He has a small handful of choices and a smaller handful of non-choices that can probably be listed as choices even though he would never actually take them. Wizard has pretty much all these same choices (Except, perhaps, applying a flaming sword directly to bad guy forehead), but can also apply narrative pressure in another direction.
Enchanter Wizard can put enemies to sleep so they're easily killed or he can turn them into allies, leaving the battlefield busier and harder to navigate but also gaining whatever tools the converted soldiers might have. Conjurer Wizard can cover the field with magically slick oil (and prevent the Warrior from having to deal with it as well) or he can teleport chunks of the enemy army away, significantly reducing the time it takes to get through them but also potentially forcing them into banditry wherever they land. Necromancer Wizard can turn the battlefield into a diseased, cursed place, or he can raise the fallen enemies as undead, forcing a battle of wills against Enemy Cleric and/or turning the local populace against him and the Sun Warrior.
All of these are valid choices, and all of these Wizards have the potential to turn the narrative away from converting the enemy and/or their army into flaming giblets.
Yes, as far as the fighter is concerned. But whereas almost every Warrior acts more or less the same on a macro level (they allkillincapacitate enemies), two wizards can choose to apply pressure in different directions. Some Wizards might even bring their own Warrior in the form of Angels, but it's a far rarer example where a Warrior brings their own Wizard.
Edit:
Yeah, not a fan of DC. Oh well.Last edited by Ilorin Lorati; 2019-08-19 at 08:56 PM.
There was something here and in the avatar box, and there will eventually be again. I just need to figure out what I want...
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2019-08-19, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Since the example was a wizard that can’t hurt enemies the necromancer has no fallen enemies to raise without the warrior. The enchanter wizard is similarly disallowed or else the warrior gets to have a pet wizard via leadership. Teleporting the enemy away would be similarly disallowed, since they could be teleported into a spiked pit which would hurt them. If the enemy is hurt by any means other than the warrior, it is disallowed by the example.
The example was of a warrior and a specific type of wizard who needs the warrior to hurt the enemy, not any other type of wizard.
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2019-08-19, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Um...no? The Sun Warrior is Gawain. He was unkillable under the Sun and in multiple pieces of media he can shoot flaming lasers.
Obviously, why else would you put them there? Its a problem that was put in front of them (or maybe caused by him, Im not sure of the exact situation) and warriors deal with things by smacking them.
And Wizards don't get flaming swords as an option. Thats Mage Knights.
Yes, those are all valid options, and none of that is the issue. The issue has always been that the way they created Wizards is that they do Enchanter one day and Necromancer the other. Well, they technically can but its uncmmon on the actual table which is why its rarely seen as an issue, except here on the boards where we know the problems it can cause.
And its not even one that PF2E even seemed to try and fix even though they just blanket nerfed casters in the worst way possible, which was to remove their number of spells. Seriously, making the magic user less magical isn't helping anything, it just makes me want to not play a magic user.
Thats far more literally than I ever intended it but I didn't say "BFC specialist" which is what I should have said. Yes, some very good BFC does damage, but a whole lot of it (Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Stinking Cloud, Entangle etc) doesn't. It just holds things down so the martials have an easier time of it.Last edited by Blackhawk748; 2019-08-19 at 09:36 PM.
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2019-08-19, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
This is turning a bit OT, but honestly, you're not making much sense here. Even if you put an unreasonably heavy emphasis on the word "can" above, as in "cleric and warpriest may potentially have the same math", your conclusion that this means that "there is no difference" fails to take some very important related factors into account. I mean, just the simple fact that DCs are based on spell level contradicts what you're saying, which also happens to be the very thing Snowbluff said in his first post about 6/9 casters.
Everything else being equal (ability scores, feats, items etc), the fact remains that the cleric's highest level spells with a save will have a DC 3 points higher than those of the warpriest. Full stop.
Cleric has more spells, but the war priest player doesn't care. He wants the warrior bits. The spells land equally because if it's a buff or utility DC is irrelevant and if it's an attack the war priest can have the same wisdom.
And yes, the warpriest does have some potentially very strong compensating features, most notably fervor (swift-casting is typically too expensive for the cleric to get before higher levels). That does not change the fact that the cleric - even one focused on using weapons rather than casting - is far a stronger caster than a warpriest. Saying otherwise is saying that those 3 additional levels of casting progression have no impact.
The cleric doesn't have better spells. War priest has the same spells as the cleric, up to level 6. Cleric does get higher level spells faster and war priest does not get the spells of level 7 to 9.
"The cleric does not have better spells, but the cleric does have better spells."
Could you please rephrase your point to make more sense?
It's not a question of "better" or math. It's player choice not wanting to focus as much on spellcasting. If that bothers you, it's a matter of spellcaster vs warrior not game math.
The same is likely true for the hunter and the alchemist, while for example the magus, bard and summoner (especially the unchained version) would gain quite a bit more from a higher default spell DC.
I'm actually not so sure this is still true. Sure, some grognards with a very specific idea of how these things must be wouldn't like it, but on the whole my impression is that a far greater proportion of people accept - if not also expect and appreciate - "super-hero martials" on par with casters today than what was the case 10 or 20 years back.
Maybe it's a positive side-effect of such martial heroes being common in popular manga-/anime-/xianxia-style media? Perhaps even a renewed interest in the old European classics like Hercules, Beowulf or Cu Chulainn?
I think you're imagining a far more limited "Sun Warrior" than Blackhawk748 (or myself) does.
But "invincible martial god" type of builds able to utterly dominate combat, to a degree which arguably far surpasses even the most high-op caster, are already fully possible in P1 games with DSP material. And these kinds of builds have a kinda weird effect on PC and game balance in my (limited) experience; while their overall adventuring versatility is nowhere near that of a batman wizard (though not necessarily poor), the fact that most games tend to focus on combat (story- rules- and playtime-wise) also means these builds can have a much greater overall impact than what many people might first expect. I mean, a PC able to reliably take out multiple enemies of a CR of up to level +10 in the opening round of basically every combat, without breaking a sweat, does tend to steal the show even in a party of pretty high-op full casters. Especially since such PCs are also typically able to do so with barely no prep time and little limited resource expenditure, and often before the enemies have even been been able to act.
I'd much prefer a game giving martials a significantly greater overall adventuring power/versatility than any existing editions does, rather than a game attempting to balance exceptional combat prowess of martials with exceptional overall adventuring power/versatility of casters. These things don't have to be equal, of course, but a game intentionally preserving as great a difference between martials and casters as that of P1 high-op DSP martials and Paizo full casters is far from ideal IMO.Last edited by upho; 2019-08-19 at 10:24 PM.
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2019-08-20, 01:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder 2 Release
Question about multiple spellcasting archetypes: can I learn the shield cantrip once as a divine cantrip and once as an arcane cantrip? If so could I cast shield twice per combat, once as a divine shield and once as an arcane shield?
Heck, maybe I can add occult shield to that for three times per combat. It would make an interesting choice for a great sword wielding fighter with three spellcasting archetypes.